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確か士道は養子だったはずだ

zuotengdazuo

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Hi. I’m not sure why だった in the underlined part is used here. I know 〜たはず usually indicate some fact is contrary to one’s expectation. But this particular sentence doesn’t seem to indicate a contradiction between the fact and expectation. It just says if 折紙 remembered it correctly, 士道 is supposed to be an adopted child. So why is だったはず used here instead of だはず?
Thank you.
 
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Toritoribe

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I know 〜たはず usually indicate some fact is contrary to one’s expectation.
That's ~たはず with conditionals.
e.g.
彼がいたら試合に勝てたはずだ。

Past forms can be used for present things even without はず.
e.g.
思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だった!
言われてみれば明日は休みだった。

The same goes with 士道に妹は一人しかいなかったはずだ.
 

zuotengdazuo

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That's ~たはず with conditionals.
e.g.
彼がいたら試合に勝てたはずだ。
So is “conditional + ~たはず” a fixed pattern used to express that someone has just remembered/recalled something should be the case?
 

zuotengdazuo

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Hi. Can I ask about another two examples (the underlined parts)? The context is that 真那 and 折紙 have just fight a simulated combat with each other and 折紙 lost the combat to 真那, who still thinks highly of 折紙’s combat strength and performance.
I wonder if the underlined parts are the same usage as the following examples you have provided? (The speaker has just remembered something)?
思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だった!
言われてみれば明日は休みだった。
Thank you.
 

bentenmusume

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Why would it be "remembering" instead of just straightforward use of the past tense?

真那 thought that 折紙 seemed the most capable in the unit, and is saying that 折紙's performance in the simulation was above expectations.

Considering the speaker is referring to events that have already taken place, the use of the past seems perfectly natural to me. Why exactly does it seem unusual to you?
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you, bente-san. I see.
Considering the speaker is referring to events that have already taken place, the use of the past seems perfectly natural to me. Why exactly does it seem unusual to you?
折紙 was considered the most capable in the unit by 真那 previously and this is still true now, so I thought ~だ should be used. But if 真那 is just referring to the previous occasion, then it seems also reasonable to use 〜だった.

But the way, is “conditional + ~たはず” a fixed pattern as I asked in post #4? Or it has nothing to do with はず?
 

Toritoribe

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So is “conditional + ~たはず” a fixed pattern used to express that someone has just remembered/recalled something should be the case?
My answer was about to your comment "I know ~たはず usually indicate some fact is contrary to one’s expectation.", as I quoted. Thus, ~たはず in that meaning is when with conditionals, as in my first example. Your initial example and my rest two are not this ~たはず. "Conditional + ~た" can have the same meaning without はず.
e.g.
彼がいたら試合に勝てたのになあ。
彼がいると知っていたら、今日は来なかった。

By the way, I forgot to mention this, but ~だはず is ungrammatical. The same goes with あなただもので.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you, toritoribe-san.
Your initial example
Which example do you refer to by “initial example”? Do you mean だが、士道に妹は一人しかいなかったはずだ。 is the “some fact is contrary to one’s expectation." usage while 確か士道は養子だったはずだ is the “someone has just remembered/recalled something should be the case” usage?
 

Toritoribe

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It's 確か士道は養子だったはずだ, which you asked about initially. I meant this is the same usage as 士道に妹は一人しかいなかったはずだ by "The same goes with 士道に妹は一人しかいなかったはずだ", and it's also the same as my rest two examples 思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だった! and 言われてみれば明日は休みだった。, as I already wrote.

My first example 彼がいたら試合に勝てたはずだ。 is the only one "some fact is contrary to one’s expectation" in this thread.
 

healer

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思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だった!
言われてみれば明日は休みだった。
Toritoribe-san you don’t mind telling me how one determines verbs of past tense should be or can be used for a present situation and a future situation as per your two given examples?

At a stretch I could sort of figure out the first one if the sentence is spoken at the end of the day. However the second one is really beyond me.

I’ve come across and understood お腹が空いた that actually refers to current status though.
 

Toritoribe

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The first example sentence can be used even in the early morning of the day.
As for this usage of the past form, please read the whole thread again more carefully. It's already explained (not by me, though).
 

blacksesame

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た has various meanings and here is an article I found. You can find more articles talking about た that are of your interest.


The following is my interpretation.
1.recollection
...たしか士道は養子だったはずだ。
思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だった!
言われてみれば明日は休みだった。
2.subjunctive mood where the assumption is contrary to happened facts.
彼がいたら試合に勝てたはずだ。
彼がいたら試合に勝てたのになあ。(In fact, we lost the game.)
彼がいると知っていたら、今日は来なかった。(In fact, I come here and find he is here)
 

blacksesame

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The following is my interpretation of 's meanings.
1.recollection
...たしか士道は養子だっはずだ。
思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だっ
言われてみれば明日は休みだっ
2.subjunctive mood where the assumption is contrary to happened facts or reality.
彼がいら試合に勝てはずだ。
彼がいら試合に勝てのになあ。(In reality, we lost the game.)
彼がいると知っていら、今日は来なかっ。(In reality, I come here and find he is here)
 

healer

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The following is my interpretation of 's meanings.
1.recollection
...たしか士道は養子だっはずだ。
思い出した!今日は結婚記念日だっ
言われてみれば明日は休みだっ
2.subjunctive mood where the assumption is contrary to happened facts or reality.
彼がいら試合に勝てはずだ。
彼がいら試合に勝てのになあ。(In reality, we lost the game.)
彼がいると知っていら、今日は来なかっ。(In reality, I come here and find he is here)
I appreciate your help and it does help. Thanks!
 

zuotengdazuo

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士道はその場にすっくと立ち上がると、軽く伸びをした。同時に、くぅとお腹が鳴る。
……そういえば、昼食を全部路地に吐き出してから、何も食べていなかった気がする。
Hi. I’d like to ask if the underlined part is the same usage as the op, namely, “recollection” usage, because of そういえば? Can we also use 食べていない?
Thank you.
 

zuotengdazuo

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令音の言っていることは気にかかったが、確かに今は狂三以外のことを考えている余裕などないはずだった
Hi. Is the underlined part also the “recollection” usage? If so, why not use なかったはずだ?
Thank you.
 
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