物　と　事

B1ueM4oM4o · 14 Oct 2007

I pretty much understand (finally) 事 vs 物

Then, I came across there two sentences:

人の悪口は言わないことだ。

人の影口を言うものではない。

Why is one 事 and the other 物？ Can I interchange them? If not, why?

Thanks for any help.

Charles Barkley · 15 Oct 2007

The two are grammar points. I believe one difference is that the koto form might not hold the same kind of meaning if you put ではない after it. As far as I can tell, the koto form is more like a command or piece of direct advice: you shouldn't do this. The mono form has more to do with societal norms: of course people don't do this (and you shouldn't either), making the translations something like:

You shouldn't speak ill of people (like that).

Of course you shouldn't gossip about people.

I think I am in a similar position to you in that I don't encounter these forms of mono/koto enough to be comfortable with the nuances of them, yet the only way to really access the nuances are to read/hear them used a lot. This board hasn't helped me clear them up.

Chidoriashi · 15 Oct 2007

my understanding of how the sentences translate is this.

1. You must not talk bad about others. (as if to state a rule or something)

2. You should not talk bad about others. (as if to state a societal standard, but not saying that the action is prohibited)

For example. ゴミを正しく分けることだ。 You must separate your garbage properly. (stating a rule, of maybe a city or neighborhood)
ｖｓ、ゴミを正しく分けるものだ。 You should separate your garbage properly (stating a general norm, or something that is generally accepted as the right thing to do.)

I hope that helps. I'm no Japanese teacher or expert though, so don't come looking for me if you get a test question wrong or something

B1ueM4oM4o · 18 Oct 2007

Thanks guys. I kind of understand it a bit more now. I still can't understand the use of the form というものだ though. Anyone here know it? I can understand it when I read it but can't make my own sentences ._.

Damicci · 19 Oct 2007

Could be #2 has a More phisycal affect so mono is used. Just a random thought.

Kurado-sama · 25 Oct 2007

more simply, 物 is mostly us when referring to something animated. like a living thing.
and 事 for inanimated things. im a native speaker, and in alot of cases they are (NOT) interchanged. therefor when talking about things like, garbage, books, and so on. ur sentence should be marked with 事.

undrentide · 25 Oct 2007

Kurado-sama said:
more simply, 物 is mostly us when referring to something animated. like a living thing.
and 事 for inanimated things. im a native speaker, and in alot of cases they are (NOT) interchanged. therefor when talking about things like, garbage, books, and so on. ur sentence should be marked with 事.

I don't agree with your definition.

It is more like もの for concrete things while こと tends to be used for abstract things (idea, concept, etc.) For instance:

書くもの : something to write (with/on) e.g. paper, pen - which is definitely not "something animated".
書くこと : to write

As for the different usage of もの and こと, Chidoriashi alreay gave a very good explanation.

Charles Barkley · 26 Oct 2007

424 こんな難しい仕事を新人に任せるなんて、むちゃという（）。

1)ことだ 2)ものだ 3)ようだ 4)はずだ

In this sentence, why is the correct answer ものだ and not ことだ。

There is nothing more physical/less abstract about this example obviously, so please no answers with that as the explanation.

undrentide · 26 Oct 2007

Charles Barkley said:
424 こんな難しい仕事を新人に任せるなんて、むちゃという（）。

1)ことだ 2)ものだ 3)ようだ 4)はずだ

In this sentence, why is the correct answer ものだ and not ことだ。

There is nothing more physical/less abstract about this example obviously, so please no answers with that as the explanation.

I'd like to quote from the goo dictionary.

[四]（形式名詞）
(1)（「…ものだ（である）」などの形で）
(ア)普遍的な傾向。
「どんな人もお世辞には弱い―だ」「人間はとかく過去を美化したがる―らしい」
(イ)なすべきこと。
「そんな時は何も聞かずにいてあげる―だ」
(ウ)過去にしばしば起こったこと。
「二人でよく遊んだ―だ」
(2)（「…ものだ」の形で）感動・詠嘆を表す。…なああ B
「あの難関をよくくぐり抜けた―だ」「故郷とはいい― だ」「あの男にも困った―だ」
(3)（「…ものか」「…ものではない」などの形で）否あ閧ｭ調する。
「そんなことがある―か」「誰が言う―ですか」「何をするかわかった―ではない」
(4)（「…ものと思われる」などの形で）判断を強調すあ驕B
「彼はもう帰った―と思われる」「あきらめた―とみえて、その後何も言ってこない」
(5)（「ものとする」の形で）…することとする。
「甲はその責任を負う―とする（契約書ナドノ文言）」

The example you wrote is （１）（ア）.

As for こと, it simply can be rephrased by "thing".

Elizabeth · 31 Oct 2007

B1ueM4oM4o said:
Thanks guys. I kind of understand it a bit more now. I still can't understand the use of the form というものだ though. Anyone here know it? I can understand it when I read it but can't make my own sentences ._.

I don't know what you mean by "understand when you read" since most of the time it isn't a phrase that is translatable to English. But, anyway, given that というものだ is rarely used + not necessarily (if at all) interchangable with ものだ、 I think it's only a minor detail that would add a strange flourish to your speech, at this point...

The7thSamurai · 1 Nov 2007

Dammit, I just wrote a big reply to this thread but it logged me out after I pressed send...grr...

The7thSamurai · 1 Nov 2007

I'll try again...

Going by the 普遍的な傾向 definition, I can understand why ものだ would be used in the sentence こんな難しい仕事を新人に任せるなんて、むちゃというものだ. I.e. it's generally accepted that it's irresponsible giving difficult tasks to newbies. However, I still can't wrap my head around 人の影口を言うものではない because I can't see how もの functions here. Obviously you can tell me what it means but I'd end up with the same problem as the OP in that I would never know how to make my own sentences using it. If it was me I'd say something like 人の影口は言うものではない.

(btw, 人の影口を言う mean's talking behind someone's back, right??)

The7thSamurai · 1 Nov 2007

Also, trying reading this thread, from the post where we start talking about もの

Question time... | Japan Forum

Elizabeth actually writes a good breakdown of them all.

Elizabeth · 1 Nov 2007

Bucko said:
I'll try again...
Going by the 普遍的な傾向 definition, I can understand why ものだ would be used in the sentence こんな難しい仕事を新人に任せるなんて、むちゃというものだ. I.e. it's generally accepted that it's irresponsible giving difficult tasks to newbies. However, I still can't wrap my head around 人の影口を言うものではない because I can't see how もの functions here. Obviously you can tell me what it means but I'd end up with the same problem as the OP in that I would never know how to make my own sentences using it. If it was me I'd say something like 人の影口は言うものではない.
(btw, 人の影口を言う mean's talking behind someone's back, right??)

Yes, malicious gossip or backbiting. But it should be 人の陰口をいう. I can't say anything beyond that because I don't understand why 人の陰口は sounds more natural.

Also というもの is pretty idiosyncratic and no one has ever been able to even begin to explain to me how or when it gets used, so you're pretty much on your own for that one...☝

物　と　事

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