What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

或る

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
608
Reaction score
5
ジャケットの袖
jacket sleeve
折り返しのある袖
cuffed sleeve

The above phrases are found at FREE Japanese Word of the Day Widget - JapanesePod101.
What could be the difference in meaning between 袖 and ある袖 above? Where is ある necessary before a noun? ある doesn’t get translated, so is it necessary?

I guess ある here means “certain” or “some”. I have often come across ある that go with noun of places such as 会社 too.
The question is in what circumstances one needs ある before a noun. Japanese language doesn’t seem to need any article before nouns be it definite or indefinite. Then when would one really need ある?

Would the prefix of ある really make any difference in meaning, such as those in the sentences below? They can go without them, can't they?
  1. ある通貨の価値が下がると、その国の経済にインフレの影響をもたらす。
  2. ある人が間違いをしたからといってそれを笑うのは無作法である。
  3. 審判はコートのかたわらにある高い椅子に座る。
  4. 彼女は9月にとある教師と結婚した。
 

bentenmusume

やれやれ
Contributor
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
732
ある is not a "prefix" in this case and it doesn't mean "a certain X", but rather the verb ある of existence.

It's not 折り返しの<ある袖> but rather <折り返しのある>袖, where 折り返しのある is a relative clause modifying the noun 袖 and equivalent to <折り返しがある>袖. (*In relative clauses, and _only_ in relative clauses, の and が are interchangeable and equivalent in meaning.)

It means "a sleeve that has a cuff", just like 庭のある家 would mean "a house with (lit. that has) a garden".

Note that this is a different pattern from ジャケットの袖, which means "the sleeve _of a jacket_", with no functioning as the possessive.

It's worth saying that this is something you also have to kind of glean from context, as similar-looking patterns could indeed be the grammar point you thought that this was, as for example, 日本のある町~ (or とある町, as this ある meaning "a certain~" has a variant とある with identical meaning) could mean "a certain village in Japan". That interpretation, however, doesn't make logical sense for 折り返しのある袖.

  1. ある通貨の価値が下がると、その国の経済にインフレの影響をもたらす。
  2. ある人が間違いをしたからといってそれを笑うのは無作法である。
  3. 審判はコートのかたわらにある高い椅子に座る。
  4. 彼女は9月にとある教師と結婚した。
1, 2, and 4 are all the ある meaning "a certain" (note that 4 is actually the variant とある that I mentioned above). You could remove the ある from all of them and the sentences would still be grammatical, but they would lose the nuance of "a certain".
The ある in 3 is the verb of existence, and removing it would result in a grammatically incorrect sentence.
 

bentenmusume

やれやれ
Contributor
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
732
It's worth saying that this is something you also have to kind of glean from context, as similar-looking patterns could indeed be the grammar point you thought that this was, as for example, 日本のある町~ (or とある町, as this ある meaning "a certain~" has a variant とある with identical meaning) could mean "a certain village in Japan". That interpretation, however, doesn't make logical sense for 折り返しのある袖.
To further clarify, let me reply to myself and add that, in fact, <日本の>ある町 ("a certain village in (lit. 'of') Japan"), where this is the ある meaning "a certain" is, in fact, the only logical interpretation of that phrase, as <日本のある>町(=<日本がある>町)where ある is the verb of existence, wouldn't make sense (="a village that has Japan" is nonsensical).

It can be confusing given that the true structures can appear superficially similar (identical, even), but given the highly contextual nature of Japanese, but it should become more and more second nature as you gain more exposure to the language in natural contexts.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,014
Reaction score
3,255
Related to bentenmusume-san's explanation, you need to pay more attention to the relation between the two nouns in the structure "Noun A の Noun B", not just the similarity of the form.

In ジャケットの袖, Noun A ジャケット is the whole part, and Noun B 袖 is a part of Noun A. On the other hand, in 折り返しのある袖, Noun A 折り返し, i.e., "cuff/turned-up part" is a part of Noun B 袖.
cf.
ズボンのポケット
ポケットのあるズボン

The same goes with 日本のある町. As bentenmusume-san wrote, ある can't be the verb of existence since Noun B 町 is a part of Noun A 日本.

Incidentally, this might be confusing, but, unlike 庭の家, which doesn't make much sense, 広い庭の家 makes sense. In this case, 広い庭の functions as an adjectival phrase in the same meaning as 広い庭のある. In other words, 広い庭のある家 can be both "a house with a large garden" and "a certain house with a large garden." Only the context tells which is correct, but the speaker/writer would use other expressions like ある、広い庭の家 or 庭の広いある家 to make the meaning clearer if they think it could be misinterpreted. We use languages to convey what we want to convey, and not to confuse the listener(s)/reader(s) (well, at least "usually").
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
608
Reaction score
5
but rather the verb ある of existence
Thanks for your help bentenmusume-san.
I wonder why あるof existence is necessary since what is referred to has to have existed before the subject is broached. For emphasis?

The ある in 3 is the verb of existence, and removing it would result in a grammatically incorrect sentence.
I'm not too sure why ある in ある高い椅子 cannot be interpreted as "certain" or "some" in this sentence. I can't work out either why the sentence becomes ungrammatical if ある is absent. I would appreciate some explanation if you don't mind.

Thank you Toritoribe-san for expansion on the subject.
 

mdchachi

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
6 Mar 2003
Messages
3,766
Reaction score
1,197
I'm not too sure why ある in ある高い椅子 cannot be interpreted as "certain" or "some" in this sentence. I can't work out either why the sentence becomes ungrammatical if ある is absent. I would appreciate some explanation if you don't mind.
It's because it's part of an adjectival phrase. Similar to a prepositional phrase in English.

審判はコートのかたわらにある高い椅子に座る。
The referee sits in a high chair that is at court side.

If you want to drop ある then you would have to change に to で to make it grammatical.
審判はコートのかたわら高い椅子に座る。

Note, you could drop the phrase and use ある like
審判はある高い椅子に座る。
Then I think it would have this nuance of "certain." It's grammatical but doesn't really make sense in this case I think.
 

bentenmusume

やれやれ
Contributor
Joined
12 Oct 2004
Messages
1,008
Reaction score
732
healer said:
I'm not too sure why ある in ある高い椅子 cannot be interpreted as "certain" or "some" in this sentence. I can't work out either why the sentence becomes ungrammatical if ある is absent. I would appreciate some explanation if you don't mind.

To supplement mdchachi-san's explanation, it's ungrammatical because if you take out the ある verb, 「コートのかたわらに」isn't connected to anything. It can't go with 座る because 座る is a verb of action, and the place where an action takes place has to be marked with で.

<審判は><コートのかたわらにある><高い椅子に><座る>。
The referee sits in <a high chair that is at courtside>. ("a high chair that is at courtside" is a single noun phrase)
<審判は><コートのかたわらで><高い椅子に><座る>。
The referee sits in <a high chair> at courtside. ("at courtside" is a phrase showing the location of the act of "sitting in a high chair")

Note that in addition to mdchachi-san's example, you could also conceivably get:
審判はコートのかたわらで、ある高い椅子に座る。
The referee sits in <a certain high chair> at courtside. (though perhaps this isn't something you'd hear in natural converasation)

And technically, even:
審判はコートのかたわらにある、ある高い椅子に座る。
...would also be grammatically possible, if awkward. (In this last example, note that the first ある is the verb of existence, and the second one the "a certain" ある).
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,014
Reaction score
3,255
In addition, you can also use コートのかたわら高い椅子に座る.

Strictly speaking, コートのかたわら高い椅子に座る and コートのかたわらにある/高い椅子に座る are not completely the same in meaning. コートのかたわらにある/の高い椅子 means that the chair is already there, but コートのかたわらで高い椅子に座る can be used also when the subject brings a high chair to a court and sits on it, i.e., the chair is not there previously. This is because で just indicates the location of the action, as already explained.

Well, actually, this is just a possibility. It would be quite rare that a referee brings a high chair to a court. A high chair would be usually at courtside already even in コートのかたわらで高い椅子に座る, but there are cases where the meaning changes depending on which, で or の, is used.
e.g.
彼の部屋でビールを飲んだ。(ビール can be my beer.)
彼の部屋のビールを飲んだ。(ビール is already in his room. It's not my beer, usually his beer.)

教室で本を破った。(本 can be my book.)
教室の本を破った。(本 is already in a classroom. It's not my book.)

I can't work out either why the sentence becomes ungrammatical if ある is absent.
If ある is removed, コートのかたわらに高い椅子に座る is ungrammatical, as already explained. It also can be considered that the reason is because 高い椅子に is there. In other words, コートのかたわらに座る is grammatical (but the meaning is different from the original, of course). に indicates the destination of the action/the place the subject sits on in this case, as same as 椅子に座る, 公園の芝生に座る or 部屋の隅に座る, thus, it means the subject sits directly on the ground at courtside.
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
608
Reaction score
5
I thank everyone for the inputs.

Incidentally, this might be confusing, but, unlike 庭の家, which doesn't make much sense, 広い庭の家 makes sense.
Could you if possible please give me a few more examples of adjectival phrase in a variety of structures especially without あるof existence? Thanks!
 

mdchachi

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
6 Mar 2003
Messages
3,766
Reaction score
1,197
I thank everyone for the inputs.


Could you if possible please give me a few more examples of adjectival phrase in a variety of structures especially without あるof existence? Thanks!
Any time you use a "sentence" to modify a noun it's an adjectival phrase. Also called relative clause. See this lesson about it:
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,014
Reaction score
3,255
Could you if possible please give me a few more examples of adjectival phrase in a variety of structures especially without あるof existence?
Do you mean you think 広い庭の家 is an omitted version of 広い庭のある家?
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
608
Reaction score
5
Do you mean you think 広い庭の家 is an omitted version of 広い庭のある家?
Thanks Toritoribe-san for asking.

No, I was asking for a few more examples of adjectival phrase in different structures just in case there is more than one way of structuring them. From 広い庭のI can see the syntax is adjective+noun+の.

The reason I said not to worry about those with ある because I didn’t think that would make any difference whether ある that follows means “existence”or “some”. Thanks again!
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,014
Reaction score
3,255
Are you talking about these ones?

入り組んだ筋の小説(= 筋の/が入り組んだ小説, ×筋の小説)
バラの香りの香水(×香りの香水)
 
Top Bottom