場所があったはずだ

zuotengdazuo · 19 May 2020

だが、十香のいる水族館と目と鼻の先というのは、精神衛生上あまりよろしくなかった。確か、敷地内には他にも食事ができる場所があったはずだ。士道は場所の変更を提案しようとしーーたのだが、半ば強引に、ざりざりと引きずられていってしまった。

Context: the protagonist (士道) is dating 十香 and they went to 水族館 together. But in the process of watching fishes in 水族館, 士道 runs away, pretending to go to the restroom because he has to date another girl, 折紙. 折紙 offers to eat in a restaurant, which happens to be close to the 水族館. 士道 worries that they might run into 十香 if they go to that restaurant. So 士道 proposes to go to other restaurants.

Hi. Why is 場所があったはずだ used here? Can we also use 場所があるはずだ in this context?
場所があったはずだ seems to have a "contrary to expectations" nuance. 場所があったはずだ sounds like there are actually no other restaurants in this area.

Thank you.

Toritoribe · 19 May 2020

That's totally the same as 確か士道は養子だったはずだ in usage.

確か士道は養子だったはずだ

Hi. I’m not sure why だった in the underlined part is used here. I know 〜たはず usually indicate some fact is contrary to one’s expectation. But this particular sentence doesn’t seem to indicate a contradiction between the fact and expectation. It just says if 折紙 remembered it correctly, 士道 is...

jref.com

zuotengdazuo · 20 May 2020

Thank you. I should have realized that earlier.
Can I ask about another example of だった?

ほう、と息を吐く。どうにか頭が繋がったようだった。
「伝言を言付かっていますわ。ええとーー『五河くん、あとで、泣かす』」
「……」
前言撤回。明日が大変そうだった。

Does the underlined だった have the nuance called 再認識, which is the same as お名前は何とおっしゃいましたっけ。 or 会議は明日だった。in usage?
Or it is simply past tense, the same as the first だった (頭が繋がったようだった)?

My grammar book says 再認識 is the same usage as the "recollection" usage. If that is the case, then 明日が大変そうだった。is the same usage as the op example. But I don't feel 再認識 and "recollection" are the same thing.

Toritoribe · 20 May 2020

zuotengdazuo said:
Does the underlined だった have the nuance called 再認識, which is the same as お名前は何とおっしゃいましたっけ。 or 会議は明日だった。in usage?
Or it is simply past tense, the same as the first だった (頭が繋がったようだった)?

It's the latter.

zuotengdazuo · 20 May 2020

Thank you for the confirmation.

zuotengdazuo · 21 May 2020

心臓が締め付けられるように痛む。だがそれは、狂三の美しい貌と大胆な行動によるものではなくーー純粋な恐怖によるものだった。
そう。士道は今ーー狂三に、精霊に恐怖していた。
世界を殺す災厄。人類の天敵。
言葉の上では何度も耳にしていたその言葉。
飽くほどに折紙が繰り返していたはずのその台詞。
それが、初めて生々しい臭いを伴って、士道の脳髄に染み込んできた。

Hi. Is the underlined part the same usage as the op example? Or is the underlined part just an assumption about a past event without a "contrary to one's expectation" or a "recollection" nuance?
Thank you.

Toritoribe · 21 May 2020

zuotengdazuo said:
Is the underlined part the same usage as the op example? Or is the underlined part just an assumption about a past event without a "contrary to one's expectation" or a "recollection" nuance?

It's the latter.

zuotengdazuo · 2 Jun 2020

Hi. Toritorib-san. Does the pattern 〜ていたはず never have the "recollection" nuance? If that is not the case, do you have any counter examples?
Thank you.

bentenmusume · 2 Jun 2020

Why would you assume that just because it isn't the case here, that it can "never" have that nuance?

A simple Google search for "ていたはずだけど" or "ていたはずなのに" can turn up plenty of cases where it has a "contrary to expectation"/"recollection" nuance. (With the だけど and なのに making it clear that it's contrary to fact/the speaker's expectation.)

This seems to be another situation where you are expecting a strict, all-or-nothing rule to govern the precise meaning of a grammatical structure rather than simply accepting that certain patterns can have different interpretations depending on the context.

場所があったはずだ

zuotengdazuo

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

確か士道は養子だったはずだ

zuotengdazuo

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

zuotengdazuo

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zuotengdazuo

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

zuotengdazuo

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bentenmusume

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