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~分 usage

UsoToChinmoku

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So this has been bothering me for quite some time now, but I got reminded by this sentence:

お~い! 誰かいるっすか?
繭がある 声は通らない。

1)This simply expresses causality? To an extent of/In accordance to A, B will/won't happen?
"Your voice won't go through because of the cocoon"
But there's no entry in the dictionary describing causality...
I assumed it's not a physical (部)分 since there's no additional particle. Is it this usage 物事の状態・様子・程度。「この―なら計画の実行は大丈夫だ」?

2) I tried googling usage rules and found this: 「分」という字の使い方について先日、友人と「支え合うとは... - Yahoo!知恵袋
It's basically a similar question I have. Even though the guy is a native he doesn't understand as well xD.
Is the following example the same usage as my above sentence?
”両親に支えてもらっている、私も両親を違う場面で支えてあげたいと思う”
Is the first answer (程度・量・様) correct?

3) There's a different entry for その分 in the dictionary. It's simply その+分? Is the nuance any different? They don't look any different to me in these "causality" situations. F.E.:
「休みをとった、その分あとでがんばらなくてはいけない」
「休みをとった分、あとでがんばらなくてはいけない」

「繭がある、その分声は通らない」
「繭がある分、声は通らない」

Are these sentences identical? They look the same to me.

4)Actually, I think I understand practical examples, I'm just not able to grasp/explain the underlying theory. The dictionary entry is somewhat unclear. What part of speech is it considered in these situations? An adverbial phrase?
 
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Toritoribe

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1) 2)
It's 程度 "to an extent of", i.e., the definition #5, as you wrote. 繭がある分だけ声は通らない。 makes more sense?

3)
As in the above, it's not "causality" but "extent"; not 休みをとったから, but 休みをとったあいだの分(= 休みを取っていたあいだ、本来なら働いたであろう分).

4)
Yes, 繭がある分 is an adverbial clause.
 

UsoToChinmoku

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1) 2)
It's 程度 "to an extent of", i.e., the definition #5, as you wrote. 繭がある分だけ声は通らない。 makes more sense?
"Your voice won't go through as far as the cocoon reaches"?
I'm assuming this is the だけ of できるだけ (分量・程度・限度を表す)? I know that this is kind of a set phrase (分だけ even has a EN-JP dictionary entry) but from a theoretical perspective - they both show 程度~, isn't this redundant?

3)
As in the above, it's not "causality" but "extent"; not 休みをとったから, but 休みをとったあいだの分(= 休みを取っていたあいだ、本来なら働いたであろう分).
Yeah, I worded it badly :( Nevertheless, the その分 and 分 sentences are still identical, right?
 

Toritoribe

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That's more likely "the voice is weakened (by the cocoon) to the extent of (the thickness of) the cocoon."

And yes, those examples are the same.
 

UsoToChinmoku

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Thanks for everything.

So you tried adding emphasis with だけ to help me understand? I mean, these sentences:

繭がある分、声は通らない
繭がある分だけ、声は通らない

are identical? Since both 分 and だけ denote "extent" here, it simply adds emphasis?

BTW, the official translation was quite simple: "Your voice won't travel through this cocoon."
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, だけ is just for emphasis.
When the voice doesn't go out at all, 分 is not used, I believe.
 

UsoToChinmoku

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When the voice doesn't go out at all, 分 is not used, I believe.
Yeah, that makes sense. There would be no point in using 分 if the voice simply doesn't go through at all. I heard that these CrunchyRoll translators are horribly underpaid though, so I don't really blame them!
 

UsoToChinmoku

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Forgot to ask one more thing. Are だけ and 分 completely interchangeable with each other in these "extent" situations?
For example:

「走れるだけ走ってみよう」 = 「走れる分走ってみよう」 ?
「繭がある分、声は通らない」 = 「繭があるだけ声は通らない」?
 
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Toritoribe

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Those are not always the same. 走れるだけ means "to the limit of your ability", whereas 走れる分 is more "loose", such like "if you feel tired, you don't need to run anymore". As for the second example, 繭がある分 and 繭があるだけは seem to be the same to me.
 

Toritoribe

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繭があるほど声は通らない is more likely 繭があればあるほど "the more~, the more..." 走れるほど走ってみよう doesn't make much sense to me.

Note that I'm talking about those two example sentences. In other contexts, for instance, 走れるだけまだましだ and 走れる分まだましだ are almost the same.
 

UsoToChinmoku

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Right, 走れるほど走ってみよう sounds like "let's trying running to the extent of becoming able to run" :/

In your new example sentences, 分 and だけ still denote extent?
"(the extent of) Being able to run is still more preferable (than not even being able to walk)?

For some reason these ほど/分/だけ adverbial clauses seem very, how should I put it, "alien" to me.
 
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Toritoribe

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Yes, those are "extent".

Probably because ほど/分/だけ have many different meanings/usages, e.g., ~ば~ほど, ~ば~だけ or ~する分には.
 

UsoToChinmoku

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Well, there's that... But also these adverbial clauses don't connect very well inside my head. The lack of particles just makes for very weird literal translations.

Since you brought it up, to re-affirm:

1)~する分には shows 範囲? Within the bounds of doing xxx? F.E.:

学校に行く分には申し分がないが、勉強はしたくない。

2) Is it interchangeable with だけ here?

学校に行くだけには申し分がないが、勉強はしたくない。

3) Are these sentences semantically different? Are they both equally natural/unnatural?

学校に行くだけには申し分がないが、勉強はしたくない。
学校に行くだけなら申し分がないが、勉強はしたくない。
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, that's 範囲.

この自転車は、学校に行く分には申し分ないが、山道を駆け回るのには向かない。
学校に行く分には抵抗がないが、勉強はしたくない。

~する分には is interchangeable with ~するだけなら. ~するだけには sounds odd.

この自転車は、学校に行くだけなら申し分ないが、山道を駆け回るのには向かない。
学校に行くだけなら抵抗がないが、勉強はしたくない。
 

UsoToChinmoku

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Thanks one more time. These 範囲 ones are pretty clear, the adverbial "extent" usages still feel a bit unnatural, but I'm getting the hang of it.
 
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