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Usage of 「しね」 or 「し」 to end a sentence.

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TechShui

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今日はみんなさん! 🙂
This is my first post to these forums! <br><br>
Here's my question. How do I properly use 「しね」 or 「し」 at the end of sentence?
Someone told me that that 「し」 is the same shi from the verb shiru 「しる」 meaning "know". Is that true? Here's an example sentence:
かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。 (Kare wa Nihongo wo wakaru wake ja nai shi ne.)<br><br>
Is the above correct grammatically, and what would the best translation be? Is it something like, "You know he doesn't understand Japanese, right?" I'm assuming 「ね」 is the particle ne inviting agreement, or does ne simply make this a question, instead of a statement of fact... Any ideas?
Thanks in advance,
TechShui
P.S. How do I add line breaks if not with <br>?
 
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Toritoribe

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That し is a particle, and has no relation with 知る. In the example sentence below, it states a reason and shows a result implyingly, as same as から.

A: 彼と英語で話さなきゃ駄目なの?
A: Must we talk with him in English?
B: うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。 = かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないから、英語で話さなきゃ駄目だね。
B: Yeah, because he can't understand Japanese. = We have to talk with him in English, because he can't understand Japanese.

But し can have more various meanings depending on the context.

I'm assuming 「ね」 is the particle ne inviting agreement, or does ne simply make this a question, instead of a statement of fact...
ね is a sentence final particle, and your first interpretation would be correct in this case.:)
 

Elizabeth

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This from the Yomirui Shimbun on "wo wakaru" :p


....In contrast, the Japanese-language mindset does not see this distinction as clearly.
Both the stimulus and the person are blended together, describing a state (enjoyable).

This difference creates misuse in other areas as well. Let's look at one very *germane
to students of Japanese. One of the first verbs learned when studying Japanese is
wakaru, commonly translated as "understand." Jon-san (wa) nihongo ga wakaru is
generally translated as "John understands Japanese." In this English equivalent,
"Japanese" is the object of the verb "understand." Referring to the original, we see the
particle ga (commonly described as the "subject indicator": nihongo ga wakaru). So, can
one say, in Japanese, nihongo o wakaru? Most emphatically, "No!" It is not possible to
say this despite the particle o being commonly explained as the "object indicator." But
why? Isn't nihongo the "object" of wakaru?
Here we arrive at a split between Japanese and English that can only be described
as metaphysical. There is a difference in mindset between the two languages in
conceptualizing the idea "understanding." The English verb "understand" is based on
an idea that understanding is a *volitional working of one's mind; this is why it takes
an object. (In our example, "Japanese" is the object.) On the other hand, the Japanese
verb wakaru refers to a state where things are well-organized and comprehensible. In
the example above, both Jon-san and nihongo are the matters involved in that
well-organized state. We might call Jon-san the primary matter, and nihongo the
secondary matter, in this example. The person and the thing are not clearly
distinguished, certainly not in terms of the subject-object relationship. (Some linguists
term Jon, in our example, the primary affect and nihongo the secondary affect.)
 

Jericho Desu

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That し is a particle, and has no relation with 知る. In the example sentence below, it states a reason and shows a result implyingly, as same as から.
A: 彼と英語で話さなきゃ駄目なの?
A: Must we talk with him in English?
B: うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。 = かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないから、英語で話さな きゃ駄目だね。
B: Yeah, because he can't understand Japanese. = We have to talk with him in English, because he can't understand Japanese.
But し can have more various meanings depending on the context.

I've got a question. For that sentence "うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。" Can you say: うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないんだね。To give the same meaning?
 

Toritoribe

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This from the Yomirui Shimbun on "wo wakaru" :p


....In contrast, the Japanese-language mindset does not see this distinction as clearly.
Both the stimulus and the person are blended together, describing a state (enjoyable).

This difference creates misuse in other areas as well. Let's look at one very *germane
to students of Japanese. One of the first verbs learned when studying Japanese is
wakaru, commonly translated as "understand." Jon-san (wa) nihongo ga wakaru is
generally translated as "John understands Japanese." In this English equivalent,
"Japanese" is the object of the verb "understand." Referring to the original, we see the
particle ga (commonly described as the "subject indicator": nihongo ga wakaru). So, can
one say, in Japanese, nihongo o wakaru? Most emphatically, "No!" It is not possible to
say this despite the particle o being commonly explained as the "object indicator." But
why? Isn't nihongo the "object" of wakaru?
Here we arrive at a split between Japanese and English that can only be described
as metaphysical. There is a difference in mindset between the two languages in
conceptualizing the idea "understanding." The English verb "understand" is based on
an idea that understanding is a *volitional working of one's mind; this is why it takes
an object. (In our example, "Japanese" is the object.) On the other hand, the Japanese
verb wakaru refers to a state where things are well-organized and comprehensible. In
the example above, both Jon-san and nihongo are the matters involved in that
well-organized state. We might call Jon-san the primary matter, and nihongo the
secondary matter, in this example. The person and the thing are not clearly
distinguished, certainly not in terms of the subject-object relationship. (Some linguists
term Jon, in our example, the primary affect and nihongo the secondary affect.)

う~ん、その議論に踏み込むと、日本語には補語と述部 の関係性のみがあって主語も目的語も明確には存在しな い、という理論にまで踏み込まなきゃいけなくなります 。そうすると初心者には不必要なほど話が込み入ってし まうので、いつも便宜的に一般的な用法の主語、目的語 という用語を使ってるんですけどね。😅
「わかる」がヲ格補語を取るという用法は、最近は増え てると思います。(厳密に統計取ったわけじゃありませ んが。)個人的にも違和感を感じないことも多い。「~ を好き」とおんなじ感覚なんでしょうね。

I've got a question. For that sentence "うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。" Can you say: うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないんだね。To give the same meaning?
No, they are different. If A says 彼とは英語で話さなきゃ駄目なんだね, the conversation can work as a situation that A and B are confirming their impressions each other.
 
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Jericho Desu

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No, they are different. If A says 窶敕樞?堙??堙坂?ーpナ津ェ窶堙?彙窶堋ウ窶堙遺?堋ォ窶堙。窶佚岩?禿壺?堙遺?堙ア窶堋セ窶堙? the conversation can work as a situation that A and B are confirming their impressions each other.

Hmm...I guess I have to study those endings abit more... Thanks for replying :)
 

TechShui

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That し is a particle, and has no relation with 知る. In the example sentence below, it states a reason and shows a result implyingly, as same as から.
Thanks Tori-san, I see now, that makes more sense. Kara is a very common word, one of the first I learned. However I've never seen し in this context before, not even in spoken Japanese. Perhaps kara is preferred to shi for the same reason yon (四) is preferred to shi? (i.e. it sounds like "death")
And looking back at my example, it sounds even uglier to put 「しね」 at the end of any sentence. Since that can sound like the imperative 死ね! (Die!) :eek: Geh, yabai!
One more thing, does 「し」 need to always follow an adjective?
A: 彼と英語で話さなきゃ駄目なの?
A: Must we talk with him in English?
B: うん。彼は日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。 = かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないから、英語で話さな きゃ駄目だね。
B: Yeah, because he can't understand Japanese. = We have to talk with him in English, because he can't understand Japanese.
Person B using my same example, states the obvious answer, hence the use of wakaru wake ja nai, instead of wakaranai. Does the 「し」 particle reinforce the tone of obviousness? Or is that a moot point... heh, heh. Dumb question.
But し can have more various meanings depending on the context.
What other meanings can 「し」 have? I'm not referring to kanji with readings of "shi", I mean where 「し」 would appear in hiragana... Is it always a post-position.
ね is a sentence final particle, and your first interpretation would be correct in this case. :)
Thanks, I'm glad I remembered that one. And it should be inflected too, like か.
 

GreenCat

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今日はみんなさん! :)
Is that true? Here's an example sentence:
かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね。 (Kare wa Nihongo wo wakaru wake ja nai shi ne.)<br><br>
Is the above correct grammatically, and what would the best translation be?
P.S. How do I add line breaks if not with <br>?

しね is a compositional suffix I believe.

かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃない。
To talk about him, Japanese, he does not understand.

かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないし
To talk about him, Japanese, he also does not understand it.
or
To talk about him, because, Japanese, he does not understand it.

かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね
To talk about him, Japanese, he also does not understand it. You agree right?
or
To talk about him, because, Japanese, he does not understand it. You agree right?

Rather unnatural but hope these explain well enough.

p.s
I personally hate using or to hear people using ね, because I feel, when they use it, as if I am demanded to agree. I guess I am just sick but every time someone use ね, I feel strong impulse to say "hey, let me decide what I think!!!". Not like I ever actually have said it though, as least so far.

This from the Yomirui Shimbun on "wo wakaru" :p

....In contrast, the Japanese-language mindset does not see this distinction as clearly.
Both the stimulus and the person are blended together, describing a state (enjoyable).

This difference creates misuse in other areas as well. Let's look at one very *germane
to students of Japanese. One of the first verbs learned when studying Japanese is
wakaru, commonly translated as "understand." Jon-san (wa) nihongo ga wakaru is
generally translated as "John understands Japanese." In this English equivalent,
"Japanese" is the object of the verb "understand." Referring to the original, we see the
particle ga (commonly described as the "subject indicator": nihongo ga wakaru). So, can
one say, in Japanese, nihongo o wakaru? Most emphatically, "No!" It is not possible to
say this despite the particle o being commonly explained as the "object indicator." But
why? Isn't nihongo the "object" of wakaru?
Here we arrive at a split between Japanese and English that can only be described
as metaphysical. There is a difference in mindset between the two languages in
conceptualizing the idea "understanding." The English verb "understand" is based on
an idea that understanding is a *volitional working of one's mind; this is why it takes
an object. (In our example, "Japanese" is the object.) On the other hand, the Japanese
verb wakaru refers to a state where things are well-organized and comprehensible. In
the example above, both Jon-san and nihongo are the matters involved in that
well-organized state. We might call Jon-san the primary matter, and nihongo theS
secondary matter, in this example. The person and the thing are not clearly
distinguished, certainly not in terms of the subject-object relationship. (Some linguists
term Jon, in our example, the primary affect and nihongo the secondary affect.)

It is a hot article but um, my opinion here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"here is a difference in mindset between the two languages in
conceptualizing the idea "understanding."

Too vague I think. If the professionals in linguistic claim something like this, there is nothing I can argue against.

However, I personally see many similarities in the two languages: It is clear that the two are not the same but, as to whether there is emphatically mutually exclusive area of language facilities available, I feel there is no such area as both languages are used by biologically almost homologous groups; what is well supported in one language may be poorly supported in another for cultural reasons though.

Their conclusion sounds a like result of poor attempt to forcibly apply English criteria to Japanese language.

I believe the difference of languages barely lies in the order of construction of their logic and common practices.


As to the difference in how we use objects and subjects, we might consider below.

部屋に入る
into the room entered he(In Japanese, he is omitted ).

日本語(object) を 理解する。

日本語 は 解る?
(As to) Japanese language, (do you) understand it?

彼 は 日本語 が 解る?
I am talking about him, Japanese, does he understand it? (him Japanese, understand it)

Interestingly we end up with some similar structures when we start removing "I am", " doe he" etc.

I know I am saying something rather stupid because there are so many people who are studying the linguistics seriously but that does not mean we have to believe them without asking any questions at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
 

Elizabeth

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しね is a compositional suffix I believe.
かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃない。
To talk about him, Japanese, he does not understand.
かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないし
To talk about him, Japanese, he also does not understand it.
or
To talk about him, because, Japanese, he does not understand it.
かれは日本語を分かるわけじゃないしね
To talk about him, Japanese, he also does not understand it. You agree right?
or
To talk about him, because, Japanese, he does not understand it. You agree right?
Rather unnatural but hope these explain well enough.
I don't see why わけじゃない(しね) is not also used in negative sentences to focus the point of the negation or correct a partially incorrect assumption.

Discussing how he received some benefit tangential to the language (job, schooling, etc)

It's not that/because/for the reason he understands Japanese...(implying there is some other, possibly undercover, explanation).
 

GreenCat

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I don't see why わけじゃない(しね) is not also used in negative sentences to focus the point of the negation or correct a partially incorrect assumption.
Hmm, ya, you are exactly right Elizabeth that we missed some important points.
It is rather complicated though.

Let me see some examples(might have missed few though):
1「げんばく とうか は ひげきだ」
2「まあ、ひげき は 戦争に つきものだしね」
(in general, second speaker agrees to the first statement but by stating what he say is a part of larger picture, expanding the focus of the point and implicitly denying what was emphasised and intended.)
So, second speaker can be said to be trying to "correcting a partial in-correctness" .

or
2「まあ、ひげき は 戦争に つきものだし」(Might imply that the speaker 2 do not agree with 1. )
And what is the meaning of this sentence...hmm rather ambiguous.
I think しsuffix is also used to list reasons like:
あついし、くさいし、うるさいし、もう き が くるいそう。

Then 2「まあ、ひげき は 戦争に つきものだし」 is adding something to the statement made by speaker 1. What would be the possible intentions?:Maybe to correct something said wrong?
Hmm, I can't work this out and I think this very difficulty is the clue; This sentence is left incomplete, so speaker 2's intention remain unclear!!
or
by using し suffix speaker 2 intends to say that he has more things to add but decided to leave it unfinished? Either ways, "し" suffix can be for muddying.

2「まあ、ひげき は 戦争に つきものだね」(pretty similar to だしね、maybe )
Sounds a little servile maybe. Showing more willingness to agree than when 「しね」 suffix is used while I sense speaker 2 do not really care about what he is saying though.)

かれの えいご は ひどいものだ
べんきょう してない しね

かれ の ぶんしょうは ひどいものだ
かれ は えいごを りかい している わけじゃないしね

"focusing the point of the negation correct a partially incorrect" explains the use of 「しね」 above pretty well.
In this case, it is used for adding information rather than correcting though

And in the above examples, ね is used to express agreement rather than asking someone to agree with.

Now, whether I still consider しね to be a compositional suffix...pretty hard and maybe better off consider it as a suffix of its own but there definitely is some similarities to ね and しsuffix...

Oh well, not like I must decide please check a dictionary.

Also, I believe there are other uses of this しね suffix but well, please consult dictionaries as listing all of them can be a really exhausting process.

Discussing how he received some benefit tangential to the language (job, schooling, etc)
It's not that/because/for the reason he understands Japanese...(implying there is some other, possibly undercover, explanation).

かれ は ロシア語 が できるしね。
also because he can understand Russian.

Hmm, I hope I have not missed much now.
 
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Toritoribe

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Kara is a very common word, one of the first I learned. However I've never seen し in this context before, not even in spoken Japanese. Perhaps kara is preferred to shi for the same reason yon (四) is preferred to shi? (i.e. it sounds like "death")
No, it's commonly used both in spoken and written Japanese. According to 広辞苑, it was used only with the auxiliary verbs まい and う until early Edo era, but now can be used for all verbs, adjectives, auxiliary verbs, etc.

And looking back at my example, it sounds even uglier to put 「しね」 at the end of any sentence. Since that can sound like the imperative 死ね! (Die!) Geh, yabai!
Yeah, actually, when I saw this thread title "Usage of 「しね」" first, I thought that it would be a question about 死ね. 😅

One more thing, does 「し」 need to always follow an adjective?
I already answered this. ;)

Does the 「し」 particle reinforce the tone of obviousness?
I meant the meanings of し as a conjunctive particle, quoting examples, showing causes, adversative conjunction as the form まいし, and so on.

Besides as the conjunctive particle, し is used as some conjugations, pre-nai/pre-masu of the verb する, the adjectival form of the auxiliary verb き.
e.g.
無茶をし、体を壊した。(=無茶をして、体を壊した。)
在りし日の日本
 

GreenCat

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No, it's commonly used both in spoken and written Japanese. According to 広辞苑, it was used only with the auxiliary verbs まい and う until early Edo era, but now can be used for all verbs, adjectives, auxiliary verbs, etc.
Yeah, actually, when I saw this thread title "Usage of 「しね」" first, I thought that it would be a question about 死ね.😌
I already answered this.;-)
No. し has more obvious function to show a result/judgement implyingly, as I mentioned.
I meant the meanings of し as a conjunctive particle, quoting examples, showing causes, adversative conjunction as the form まいし, and so on.
サービス終了のお知らせ
(all in Japanese)
Besides as the conjunctive particle, し is used as some conjugations, pre-nai/pre-masu of the verb する, the adjectival form of the auxiliary verb き.
e.g.
無茶を、体を壊した。(=無茶をして、体を壊した。)
在り日の日本

Thank you Toritoribe, obviously I had overlooked quite few usages...I guess I should not touch particles half-heartedly...
 

TechShui

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This from the Yomirui Shimbun on "wo wakaru" :p


....In contrast, the Japanese-language mindset does not see this distinction as clearly.
Both the stimulus and the person are blended together, describing a state (enjoyable).

This difference creates misuse in other areas as well. Let's look at one very *germane
to students of Japanese. One of the first verbs learned when studying Japanese is
wakaru, commonly translated as "understand." Jon-san (wa) nihongo ga wakaru is
generally translated as "John understands Japanese." In this English equivalent,
"Japanese" is the object of the verb "understand." Referring to the original, we see the
particle ga (commonly described as the "subject indicator": nihongo ga wakaru). So, can
one say, in Japanese, nihongo o wakaru? Most emphatically, "No!" It is not possible to
say this despite the particle o being commonly explained as the "object indicator." But
why? Isn't nihongo the "object" of wakaru?
Here we arrive at a split between Japanese and English that can only be described
as metaphysical. There is a difference in mindset between the two languages in
conceptualizing the idea "understanding." The English verb "understand" is based on
an idea that understanding is a *volitional working of one's mind; this is why it takes
an object. (In our example, "Japanese" is the object.) On the other hand, the Japanese
verb wakaru refers to a state where things are well-organized and comprehensible. In
the example above, both Jon-san and nihongo are the matters involved in that
well-organized state. We might call Jon-san the primary matter, and nihongo the
secondary matter, in this example. The person and the thing are not clearly
distinguished, certainly not in terms of the subject-object relationship. (Some linguists
term Jon, in our example, the primary affect and nihongo the secondary affect.)
Arigatou gozaimasu, Elizabeth-san.
I appreciate it when people correct my grammar. It's better to correct small mistakes now, before they become bad habits later.
Actually, I had "Nihongo ga wakaru" but, I changed it to "Nihongo wo wakaru" at the last minute. :p LOL.
I couldn't decide which one was appropriate. Now, it seems pretty obvious, even if I didn't know ga is used with wakaru, the guideline I was taught early in my Japanese studies was this: If there's a subject-verb sentence within a larger sentence, this "mini-sentence", usually employs ga; while the main topic, employs wa.
Example: Kinou, Watashi wa atarashii no Masamune-san ga kaku hon yomimashta. (Yesterday, I read the new book written by Masamune.)
On a side note, can someone please tell me how to add line breaks, or paragraphs in this forum? <br> is not working. Neither is [br] it's really frustrating.
 
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Elizabeth

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Arigatou gozaimasu, Elizabeth-san.
I appreciate it when people correct my grammar. It's better to correct small mistakes now, before they become bad habits later.
Actually, I had "Nihongo ga wakaru" but, I changed it to "Nihongo wo wakaru" at the last minute. :p LOL.
I couldn't decide which one was appropriate. Now, it seems pretty obvious, even if I didn't know ga is used with wakaru, the guideline I was taught early in my Japanese studies was this: If there's a subject-verb sentence within a larger sentence, this "mini-sentence", usually employs ga; while the main topic, employs wa.
Example: Kinou, Watashi wa atarashii no Masamune-san ga kaku hon yomimashta. (Yesterday, I read the new book written by Masamune.)
On a side note, can someone please tell me how to add line breaks, or paragraphs in this forum? <br> is not working. Neither is [br] it's really frustrating.
Oh, you're welcome. :)

One more correction on the grammar question, "Kinou, (watashi wa), Masamune-san ni yotte kakareta atarashii hon wo yomimashita." is more correct and natural. (I read the new book written by Masamune) 😌

OR "Kinou, (watashi wa), Masamune-san ga kaita atarashii hon wo yomimashita." (I read the new book Masamune wrote.) The order of "ga" and "wa" can be easily flipped, though, or one of the particles left out, etc. making it a very unreliable "rule." because Japanese parts of a sentence are so extremely flexible. Ga in this case is marking the subject of a relative clause (Kaita atarashii hon).


Don't worry if you haven't gotten into the passive tense, but "Masamune-san ga kaku" doesn't make sense given that the infinitive, "Kaku" is the present/future form meaning "will write" "write" or "to write."
 
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