上手（じょうず）

[Glenn]

In case anyone's wondering why I put the reading, it's because I didn't want it to be confused with うわて.

Anyway, I was thinking about this word because of some experiences that I have had with it, like saying こんにちは to a Japanese person and getting 日本語、上手 in reply. I remember thinking, "you could tell from a simple greeting?" Then I started thinking that there should be a separate entry in the dictionary for じょうず that says it doesn't mean "skilled; skillful; good at," etc., but also that it's just something that people say to be polite.

Before I reached that conclusion, though, I went through all of these thoughts about how the word doesn't really have any meaning if it's used for someone who can only say こんにちは as well as someone who's fluent in the language. Stupid me. I checked the dictionary, and this is what I found:

じょうず 上手

skill; proficiency ((in)); 《人》a good hand ((at)); an expert ((in, at)); 《お世辞》a flattery; a compliment.

じょうず じやう― 3 【《上手》】

（名・形動）[文]ナリ
(1)技術がすぐれている。手際がよいこと。また、その人やさま。
⇔下手(へた)
「字の―な人」「もめ事を―にまとめる」「聞き―」
(2)言葉巧みなこと。お世辞。おじょうず。
「―を言う」
(3)囲碁・将棋で七段の位をもつ人。江戸時代から昭和初期までの用語。
［派生］ ――さ(名)
――の手から水が漏(も)れる
上手な人でも、時には失敗することがある。
――の猫が爪(つめ)を隠す
才能のある人はむやみにそれを表したりしない。能(のう)ある鷹(たか)は爪を隠(かく)す。

So it turns out that the word actually is defined as being only a compliment in some circumstances. I wish I had either been taught that from the beginning or I had checked on it sooner. Anyway, I wanted to clear the air on this word just in case there are other people out there who think like I did, and avoid any future misunderstandings. If it turns out that I'm just an idiot and no one else actually thought like I did, sorry, and I hope that you all got some enjoyment out of this.

 

[Buntaro]

The best response to "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," is, "Gomasuri wa jouzu desu ne," and then make the handle-grinding gesture. It always cracks them up.

 

[leonmarino]

The best response to "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," is, "Gomasuri wa jouzu desu ne," and then make the handle-grinding gesture. It always cracks them up.

Haha, nice one!! "Tondemonai" is what most people say isn't it? I always reply "unna wake needaro!!" (んなわけねぇだろ！） which means something like "you must be kidding!!". Most Japanese find that either amusing or confusing.

 

[Gaijinian]

Naru hodo ne...

 

[Kyoko_desu]

Originally Posted by Buntaro
The best response to "Nihongo wa jouzu desu ne," is, "Gomasuri wa jouzu desu ne," and then make the handle-grinding gesture. It always cracks them up.

あはは！うける～！！

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

Haha, nice one!! "Tondemonai" is what most people say isn't it? I always reply "unna wake needaro!!" (んなわけねぇだろ！） which means something like "you must be kidding!!". Most Japanese find that either amusing or confusing.

It might be less confusing (especially in polite company!) to say,

sonna koto nai desu yo

This is what I always say, and it usually gets a good reaction.

 

[Gaijinian]

A slightly less modest, "もう知ってるよ," might be funny if you're in a not so cheerful mood...
Or, "一言を聞くだけで自分の日本語の能力がわかる (or 判断できる, or something...) なんて、あんた天才に違いないな~." hahaha
I don't suggest saying that, though... But it might be give them an interesting shock to their system...
I can sort of understand how nihonjin feel, though. I met this kid who lived in Tokyo for a year through Rotary Youth Exchange, and damn, his Japanese was bad... その人は１年間日本に滞在してても発音がそんなに悪いんだなんてビックリだった。耳が痛くなっちゃうほどダメだった。それに、挨拶や紹介以外、何も言えなかったよ、その子が・・・。

 

[epigene]

When I started visiting Japanese-language forums like this some years ago, I was honestly surprised to see the enthusiasm with which people are learning the language. Because I grew up in the postwar years and through the 高度成長期 I've regarded Japanese just a minor language, especially because of the small population of speakers vis-a-vis the world. In my days, foreigners who gained any extent of fluency in Japanese were either Japanologists in Harvard, Cambridge, etc., or "weirdos" (or "otaku" in today's language ).

I think a lot of Japanese (though the number is declining now) still carry that mentality, which prompts them to praise foreigners using Japanese, even if it's just a few words like "arigato" or "douitashimashite." The praise escalates when competence extends to forming sentences. I actually did until now.

However, with so many more foreigners learning the language, I've decided to keep the praise limited to the "really good" speakers--some of them I find in JREF. I've discovered that some Japanese learners are gullible enough to think they are really good at it when complimented on their Japanese. In the process of learning the language, there comes a time like Glenn experienced when you start to realize what is 世辞 and what is not.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I like to reply うそをつくのが上手 but my Japanese teacher said that sarcasm's not a good idea in Japan. I complained about this whole 日本語上手 thing to her saying that I find it a little offensive, especially after only one or two words were uttered, but she said it's not a compliment as such, but rather "I'm relieved that you're using Japanese!" type phrase.

 

[JimmySeal]

I agree with most of what has been said above, but Glenn, you have misinterpreted the dictionary. It doesn't say anywhere that the use of 上手 is a form of flattery, it says that the word 上手 means flattery. Simply put, a successful flatterer has to be 上手 with using words. The part you highlighted in red even says 言葉巧みなこと (skill with words). 上手を言う (notice it's not 上手と言う) means "speak flattery, speak tactfully."

 

[Buntaro]

leonmarino,

Instead of replying, "Tondemonai" I say "Tondemo NO!" (the English "no") It always cracks them up.

 

[Glenn]

I agree with most of what has been said above, but Glenn, you have misinterpreted the dictionary. It doesn't say anywhere that the use of 上手 is a form of flattery, it says that the word 上手 means flattery. Simply put, a successful flatterer has to be 上手 with using words. The part you highlighted in red even says 言葉巧みなこと (skill with words). 上手を言う (notice it's not 上手と言う) means "speak flattery, speak tactfully."

Oh, crap. Well, thanks for pointing that out. I had thought that might be what it meant when I first looked at 言葉巧みなこと, but I already had it in my mind that it meant what I thought it meant. I have a real problem with that.

So then, maybe there should be a new definition that means "a word used to show appreciation and/or encouragement."

Anyway, this just goes to show how wrong that woman was! hahaha

The whole reason that I started thinking about it was that I also found it a bit patronizing, but taking into account the number of times a Japanese person comes across a foreigner who can speak any Japanese is pretty low on average, I can understand. Still, it feels like someone saying "you're awesome!" to somebody who can barely manage to form a C chord on the guitar. If that's awesome, you've set a pretty low ceiling, and I don't think there are words to describe Steve Vai (well, there may not be anyway, but the point remains).

 

[nhk9]

It just seems to me that either the Japanese don't say anything at all, or they would say things to a great extend. You don't often hear them say you are "fairly good" at things. One thing I find entriguing is that words like kanari, yohodo, kekkou can mean both "considerably" or just "fairly". I don't know if the language has anything to do with the perceived willingness by japanese people to praise others.

 

[Glenn]

How about なかなかやるじゃないか?

 

[bentenmusume]

One thing I find intriguing is that words like kanari, yohodo, kekkou can mean both "considerably" or just "fairly". I don't know if the language has anything to do with the perceived willingness by Japanese people to praise others.

Interesting topic. Out of curiosity, do these three words have identical nuances to you? I'm far from a native speaker, but I feel like there's a bit of a difference. For example, I think you could talk about your work or something and say 「今日はかなり忙しい」 or the like to mean "I'm pretty busy today." "Kekkou" I think could also work here to mean something similar.

On the other hand, I don't think you would use "yohodo" (or its casual spoken equivalent, "yoppodo") in the same way. On the other hand, I think you'd be able to say about someone else, 「よっぽど忙しいんだろうなぁ」 with the conjectural meaning of, "They must be really busy..." I have a feeling that you could also use 「相当」 here. "Kanari" and "kekkou" wouldn't give me the same nuance here.

This is just what my non-native (and thus completely unreliable) intuition is telling me... I wonder if I'm completely out in left field here?

 

[Damicci]

I respond with 私などまだまだです。 I read somewhere that is a very polite and nice response to a complete of that nature.

 

[J44xm]

Well, I suppose that excitedly replying 「ほ・・・本当に？！冗談じゃないですか？！」 might not always be a good idea. Perhaps 「はんとによか、じょおぞですよ？？！そのスゴイだよ ねかわぁ～？！」 would be better.

I like Mikawa Ossan's 「そんなことないです」 a lot. I've always just waved my hand in front of my face in the Prescribed Method and said 「いえ、いえ・・・」 all modest-like. Maybe it's time to graduate from that and form a real reply. (Well, I have followed up with 「四ヶ月だけ日本語を勉強していますから、まだ下手で す。」 or some such.)

 

[Glenn]

J44xm, were you really tired when you typed that up?

 

[J44xm]

J44xm, were you really tired when you typed that up?

Well, no, not really. I found one honest error in there, but the rest is supposed to sound like that, see, as the idea of replying to a compliment about your Japanese (after only saying "konnichiwa" or somesuch) with outright terrible Japanese is ridiculous and amusing to me. Not that I'd ever do it, obviously.

 

[Elizabeth]

Well, I suppose that excitedly replying 「ほ・・・本当に？！冗談じゃないですか？！」 might not always be a good idea. Perhaps 「はんとによか、じょおぞですよ？？！そのスゴイだよねかわぁ～？！」 would be better.
I like Mikawa Ossan's 「そんなことないです」 a lot. I've always just waved my hand in front of my face in the Prescribed Method and said 「いえ、いえ・・・」 all modest-like. Maybe it's time to graduate from that and form a real reply. (Well, I have followed up with 「四ヶ月だけ日本語を勉強していますから、まだ下手です。」 or some such.)

Grammar aside, there's no reply that is suitable of any of these because as a beginner it's clear the praise was never sincere or meant to be given serious thought or credence that any answer appears to take at face value. It puts the student in an extremely awkward position. Being modest assumes you have something valuable to hide, stating the obvious that it isn't yet very good will only get looks of pity at what a learner's naivete in believing any of these polite lies to the extent you'd even bother replying...

 

[Elizabeth]

I like to reply うそをつくのが上手 but my Japanese teacher said that sarcasm's not a good idea in Japan. I complained about this whole 日本語上手 thing to her saying that I find it a little offensive, especially after only one or two words were uttered, but she said it's not a compliment as such, but rather "I'm relieved that you're using Japanese!" type phrase.

I feel it's very uncomfortable too so that's the kind of starting point I usually use to refocus on my practice and their help with it if appropriate. What a relief to realize that was what was being implied all along !

あまり上手じゃないんですけど、練習が大好きですよ。
一所懸命練習してきたのに、まだ下手です。
日本語の練習に付き合ってくれてありがとうございます。など。。

 

[Elizabeth]

Interesting topic. Out of curiosity, do these three words have identical nuances to you? I'm far from a native speaker, but I feel like there's a bit of a difference. For example, I think you could talk about your work or something and say 「今日はかなり忙しい」 or the like to mean "I'm pretty busy today." "Kekkou" I think could also work here to mean something similar.
On the other hand, I don't think you would use "yohodo" (or its casual spoken equivalent, "yoppodo") in the same way. On the other hand, I think you'd be able to say about someone else, 「よっぽど忙しいんだろうなぁ」 with the conjectural meaning of, "They must be really busy..." I have a feeling that you could also use 「相当」 here. "Kanari" and "kekkou" wouldn't give me the same nuance here.
This is just what my non-native (and thus completely unreliable) intuition is telling me... I wonder if I'm completely out in left field here?

I'm not certain on the question of nuance since I've personally only used 「よほど、よっぽど in the negative to fit a situation of "not excessively" or "not overly" in English. Anyone have a more definitive answer for us ?