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中 じゅう or ちゅう

healer

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世界中 せかいじゅう
一日中 いちにちじゅう

授業中 じゅぎょうちゅう
営業中 えいぎょうちゅう

It seems to me the same kanji
is pronounced as じゅう where it means "throughout", ちゅう where it means "during".
Someone told me it is 音変化 due to the last vowel before
中. However I haven't yet come across one that reads the other way. I would like to see an example if there is any.

I wonder if they could mean the other way if we simply pronounce it differently without changing the words?
 

Toritoribe

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Refer to the following thread.

As written there, じゅう means "throughout", whereas ちゅう is "somewhere in the middle of it" in spacial usage. However, it's a bit complicated and this rule doesn't always applied in temporal usage.
Note that both じゅう and ちゅう are not always used for a word. There are many cases where only one of them can be used. For instance, 授業の間中(じゅぎょうのあいだじゅう) is more common for "throughout the class" instead of じゅぎょうじゅう. Also, えいぎょうじゅう would be interpreted as "throughout the sales department", not "throughout shop hours".
 

healer

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Oh! I've opened a can of worm. It looks like I just have to memorize every saying.

I don't live in Japan and have never been there. However I often see Japanese shops here in Australia hanging a sign saying 営業中 while their business is operating. So I don't know how "throughout the sales department" fits in. The dictionary imiwa I often use says it means the store opens. In the same dictionary, 授業中 means while in class.
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Toritoribe

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I often see Japanese shops here in Australia hanging a sign saying 営業中 while their business is operating.
That's 営業中(えいぎょうゅう). 営業中(えいぎょうゅう) can't have that meaning of 営業.
営業 is often used as the shortened form of 営業部 "sales department (of a company)" or a member of the sales department in business scenes. so "sales department (of a company)" is the most possible interpretation of 営業 in the reading えいぎょうじゅう, where じゅう means "throughout".
 

healer

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Thanks a lot!

営業中(えいぎょうゅう). 営業中(えいぎょうゅう)
Are you saying the same kanji 中 of 営業中 has two different pronunciations and hence two different meanings, whichever it is again depends on the context?

When I reviewed a textbook today I found two significant statements.
じゅう is a result of sequential voicing. I guess it refers to 音変化.​
中 attached to a noun that indicates an activity is always pronounced as ちゅう and means “in the middle of ~”.​

Is there anywhere on the net I can find the rules about 音変? I haven’t found them yet. I always try to ascertain the pattern to help me memorise.
To my memory I had come across rules before when I learnt the language ages ago. And I believe there must be some rules otherwise how could one know how to say when they first meet new words or phrases.

Something also bothers me is I had supposed the 音変 always apply. Now as I just realised it is not the case because of the second statement above in that 中 is always pronounced as ちゅう where it means “in the middle of ~”. It sounds like it ignores what vowel or rather kana precedes it.

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Toritoribe

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Are you saying the same kanji 中 of 営業中 has two different pronunciations and hence two different meanings, whichever it is again depends on the context?
Exactly. 血液中(けつえきゅう) vs. 血液中(けつえきゅう) is also an example of it in the thread I linked above.

じゅう is a result of sequential voicing.
That phenomenon "sequential voicing" is called 連濁(れんだく).

 

healer

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I wonder if they could mean the other way if we simply pronounce it differently without changing the words?
Exactly. 血液中(けつえきゅう) vs. 血液中(けつえきゅう)
Thanks! That's what I had expected all along. I asked the same question at another forum and someone who claimed to be a native Japanese rejected my concept. Certainly not everyone can be a teacher of his or her native language. I like this forum where there is a person so helpful and knowledgeable in both Japanese language and English language. Thanks a lot again!

Thanks for pointing me to the right direction for the info. Apparently I had googled the wrong word. That was a long time ago when I learnt and dropped the Japanese language due to other commitments. Now I recall it could've been 音便 not 音変 I encountered. The article you recommend does help me a lot.

Have a good day!
 

healer

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I came across a sentence similar to the following. I don't remember exactly so I have made it up for the question.
今週中に小包を届ける。

From the above discussions I have concluded that we say じゅう for the meaning of "throughout" while ちゅう for "some point of time"
I would like to know why 今週中 which means "before the week is out" is pronounced as じゅう not ちゅう which I had expected.
 

Toritoribe

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Both readings じゅう and ちゅう are possible for 今週中, but the meaning of 今週中に are the same whether it's read じゅう or ちゅう because of に.

Note that "a period of time + に" indicates a point of time, so whether 今週中 means "throughout this week" with the reading じゅう or
"before the week is out/by the end of the week" with the reading ちゅう, 今週中に refers to "a point of the period of time (=this week)" as a result.

Also note that there are many exceptions about the readings and meanings of "temporal words + 中". There are words only used with either じゅう or ちゅう, so it's hard to summarize, as I wrote in another thread.
e.g.
今日中
〇きょうじゅう ×きょうちゅう

今夜中
〇こんやじゅう 〇こんやちゅう

午前中
×ごぜんじゅう 〇ごぜんちゅう
 

healer

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I gather you're saying there is no hard and fast rule as either pronunciation is acceptable as good Japanese with 今週中 and 今夜中, though the dictionary I use only gives one each.
So I have to take them as exceptions or idioms.
Thanks again!
 

healer

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Note that "a period of time + に" indicates a point of time, so whether 今週中 means "throughout this week" with the reading じゅう or
"before the week is out/by the end of the week" with the reading ちゅう, 今週中に refers to "a point of the period of time (=this week)" as a result.
I suppose "before the week is out/by the end of the week" is the same as "in the week" or "sometime in the week". So it would be the same as "a point of the period of time (=this week)". Can we always append に to any period of time to indicate a point of time in the period? If possible, it would save the trouble of memorizing ちゅう or じゅう for the purpose.

It also seems to me じゅうalways means throughout but ちゅうcan be either.
今週中 ちゅう throughout
午前中 ちゅう throughout
夏休み中 ちゅう throughout
学期中 ちゅう throughout
X月中 ちゅう throughout

Has 午前中 got two meanings?
One is "all through the morning" with じゅうand "in the morning" with ちゅう.
So is 今週中?

午後中 doesn't exist according to a textbook, correct?
 

Toritoribe

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I suppose "before the week is out/by the end of the week" is the same as "in the week" or "sometime in the week". So it would be the same as "a point of the period of time (=this week)". Can we always append に to any period of time to indicate a point of time in the period?
Yes and yes. That's exactly what I explained so far.

If possible, it would save the trouble of memorizing ちゅう or じゅう for the purpose.
I don't think so. Indeed the meaning is the same when に is attached to the word, but you can't read, for instance, 午前中 as ごぜんじゅう whether に follows it or not, so you need to remember it anyway.

It also seems to me じゅうalways means throughout but ちゅうcan be either.
Yes for the former, but no for the latter. 今週中 こんしゅうちゅう doesn't mean "throughout this week", for example.

Has 午前中 got two meanings?
One is "all through the morning" with じゅうand "in the morning" with ちゅう.
No. I already clearly wrote that 午前中 can't read ごぜんじゅう in my previous post.
午前中
×ごぜんじゅう 〇ごぜんちゅう
So is 今週中?
Yes for 今週中, as I already wrote and as you already quoted.

午後中 doesn't exist according to a textbook, correct?
Yes.
 

healer

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That's exactly what I explained so far.
Indeed the meaning is the same when に is attached to the word
I meant getting rid of 中 and replacing it with に to mean "in the middle of, during, within" and so on. Apparently you said these are not possible.
For examples:
今週に
午前に
夏休みに
学期に
X月に

no for the latter. 今週中 こんしゅうちゅう
Something wrong with my textbook in that it says 今週中 (こんしゅうちゅう) means throughout this week. I can't find 今週中 in the dictionaries I used but 今週中に for sometime this week.
That was why I asked if there are two ways to read 中 in this phrase like 血液中(けつえきちゅう) vs. 血液中(けつえきじゅう).
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the meaning is the same when に is attached to the word
I wonder why in the dictionaries there is 今週中に no 今週中 whereas there is 午前中 no 午前中に while に attached to the word the meaning is the same.

No. I already clearly wrote that 午前中 can't read ごぜんじゅう in my previous post.
午前中 in a textbook says "all through the morning" whereas the dictionaries I used say "in the morning".
Do they read the same for both meaning?
 

Toritoribe

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I meant getting rid of 中 and replacing it with に to mean "in the middle of, during, within" and so on. Apparently you said these are not possible.
For examples:
今週に
午前に
夏休みに
学期に
X月に
Those are valid, but the meanings are not always the same as the ones with 中. For instance, 今年の十月に税率が変わった。 can't be rephrased to 今年の十月中に税率が変わった。 since a specific day can't be expresses by "within".

Something wrong with my textbook in that it says 今週中 (こんしゅうちゅう) means throughout this week. I can't find 今週中 in the dictionaries I used but 今週中に for sometime this week.
X月中 and 夏休み中 should be read じゅう for "throughout", too. In a specific context, ちゅう can be "throughout", for instance 夏休み中ずっと北海道にいた, though.

I wonder why in the dictionaries there is 今週中に no 今週中 whereas there is 午前中 no 午前中に while に attached to the word the meaning is the same.
What dictionaries are you referring to? I'm surprised that those words are in the dictionaries. It seems to me that it's like you are blaming why the dictionary doesn't explain about the difference between 私は and 私が.

午前中 in a textbook says "all through the morning" whereas the dictionaries I used say "in the morning".
Do they read the same for both meaning?
ごぜんちゅう is the only one reading of 午前中, as I repeatedly wrote.
 

healer

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今年の十月に税率が変わった。 can't be rephrased to 今年の十月中に税率が変わった。 since a specific day can't be expresses by "within".
Are you saying we can specify for example 十月十日 for the former but not 十月中十日 for the latter?

X月中 and 夏休み中 should be read じゅう for "throughout", too
Are you saying they could be read じゅう as well or instead?

In a specific context, ちゅう can be "throughout", for instance 夏休み中ずっと北海道にいた, though.
That's because of the presence of ずっと, isn't it?
Without ずっと, it has to mean "in the summer vacation" not "throughout the summer vacation". Is it right?
I suppose the textbook is wrong again or not clear enough.

What dictionaries are you referring to?
imiwa? and jisho.org.
The definitions for the words I look up are identical in both dictionaries.
今週中 not in the dictionaries but 今週中に こんしゅうじゅう before the week is out; before the week is over; within the week; sometime this week
The texbook has 今週中 read こんしゅうちゅう for the meaning of throughout this week which is different from yours.
今週中 こんしゅうちゅう doesn't mean "throughout this week"
I asked just wanted to know which to follow.

you are blaming why the dictionary doesn't
I don't blame anyone or anything though I realize nothing is perfect in this world. There is a reason for everything even though there is no mistake. So I suppose a dictionary lists one not the other it might be because for example 今週中に is a set phrase whereas 今週中 is not. I'm not sure. I'm in no position to say and I believe you would be in a much better position to do so.

ごぜんちゅう is the only one reading of 午前中, as I repeatedly wrote.
I asked because the meaning stated in the textbook is different from the dictionary.
Since it is always ごぜんちゅう, could you please comment on the meaning. The dictionary says "in the morning; during the morning" while the textbook says "throughout".
 

Toritoribe

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Are you saying we can specify for example 十月十日 for the former but not 十月中十日 for the latter?
今年の十月 actually means "a certain day in this October" in 今年の十月に税率が変わった, but 十月中に doesn't have this meaning in 今年の十月中に税率が変わった. That's what I meant.

Incidentally, 十月に荷物が届く and 十月中に荷物が届く are almost the same in meaning since both refer to "someday in October".

Are you saying they could be read じゅう as well or instead?
It's the former. じゅう is for "throughout the period", and ちゅう is for "in the period" as same as 今週中.

That's because of the presence of ずっと, isn't it?
Exactly.

Without ずっと, it has to mean "in the summer vacation" not "throughout the summer vacation". Is it right?
Yes.

The definitions for the words I look up are identical in both dictionaries.
今週中 not in the dictionaries but 今週中に こんしゅうじゅう before the week is out; before the week is over; within the week; sometime this week
Dictionaries usually don't have those combinations "word + suffix + particle" like 今週中に. In fact, J-J dictionaries like 大辞泉 or 大辞林 don't have such entries. The main function of dictionaries is to explain the definitions of each words, suffixes or particles, not every combinations of them.

I asked because the meaning stated in the textbook is different from the dictionary.
Since it is always ごぜんちゅう, could you please comment on the meaning. The dictionary says "in the morning; during the morning" while the textbook says "throughout".
The context, including particles, can affect the meaning. For instance, 午前中 can mean "throughout" in 午前中は晴れていた. In the sentence "It was fine in the morning, but started raining in the afternoon", "in the morning" is actually the same as "throughout the morning" in meaning also in English, I believe.
 
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