はず/ いけない

[Rinilex]

1) In two related sentences, the speaker is talking about a letter that came from someone that he thought to be dead. He says:

"あり得るはずもない手紙"
存在してはいけない手紙だった。"

I've been told はず is objective, not subjective. So in this case would it be: "A letter that should never have been possible."?
The next part, I'm not sure. ___はいけない I've learned is "must not ___" But in this context, it doesn't make much sense. I feel it should be "should" here too? It seems to be talking more about the letter's ability to exist.

2) Would an appropriate translation of ___が迷いに迷った be "___ was lost in the confusion"? This also refers to the letter.

3) "仕事のこと、生活のこと、街の人たちの自分たちに対あ ｷる見方、考え方、付き合い方…"

Here, I don't know who the 仕事こと、生活こと and 見方 etc. is referring to. "In work, in day to day life, the townsfolk were against their views, way of thinking, relationships..." is my very uncertain guess.

 

[Morphling]

はず/ いけない ・・・

1) はず is a noun. Here it means something that is counter to writers expectations.

This has nothing to do with subjects and objects. はず is a noun that is always modified. 被修飾名詞. There are 2 in this clause. はず is modified by あり得る and 手紙 is modified by あり得るはずもない.

The 2nd sentence means a dress that must not exist. I guess the writer is afraid of the consequence?

2) Depends on context but expresses indecision. Not confusion.

3) Need the full sentence but 対する can mean in relation to xxx yyy.

 

[Rinilex]

1) Sorry, I originally thought the sentence was something like "a letter *I* didn't expect to be possible" - but it doesn't have anything to do with the speaker's personal thoughts/ beliefs.

All of this is from a report looking back on something that happened. So he would have been afraid of the consequences, but it doesn't sound right in the past tense? Maybe I'm looking at it wrong.

2) Full sentence is, "I thought it was a letter he had sent before he died that had (迷いに迷って) and just arrived now."

3) The full section is 街の人たちの自分たちに対する見方、考え方、付き合い方…。彼らはドイツにおいてかなり辛い立場に置かれることも少なくなかったようだ。

 

[Morphling]

はず/ いけない ・・・

1) It can still mean something the writer didn't expect.

Well if the writer is recalling at the time he wrote the report then it would make sense.

2) Whats the full sentence in Japanese.

3) What's before 街?

 

[Glenn]

1) Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think "objective" and "subjectve" don't have anything to do with objects and subjects in a grammatical sense here. It's more like an objective observation vs. a subjective opinion. Along those lines, I was taught that はず is more logical/rational/emotionless, and わけ is more emotionally involved, so あり得るはずのない手紙 would be a letter that generally no one, including the speaker, would have thought would be possible, whereas あり得るわけのない手紙 would be more about how the speaker feels about the letter.

2) Is the noun that comes before 迷いに迷った a person's name?

3) I'm assuming this is 仕事のこと、生活のこと、街の人たちの自分たちに対する見方、考え方、付き合い方…。彼らはドイツにおいてかなり辛い立場に置かれることも少なくなかったようだ。

In that case, it's talking about the things that made their lives in Germany tough.

 

[Morphling]

Ahh okay I misunderstood. I don't think はず carry anything that is strictly 客観的. Wouldn't it depend on context and how you express it. Against わけ it would be 理屈vs推理. Both are subjective.

 

[Rinilex]

1) Thanks for that explanation, Glenn. It's something I still wasn't really clear on myself - as I mentioned in my previous post, I made the mistake of thinking はず was person-specific, then the "objectivity" issue I failed to explain was mentioned to me.

How would you put してはいけない in English, though? "It was a letter that must not have existed."?

2) No, it's 手紙. (彼は)死ぬ前に彼女に宛てた手紙が迷いに迷って、今頃届いたのだろう、そう思っていた。

3) Yes, that's right.
But whose 見方, 考え方, etc. is it talking about?

 

[Glenn]

1) I'd say it's like "shouldn't" or "ought not".

2) Oh, in that case it was just lost in the mail or something. 迷いに迷って strengthens the feeling, which would be the case if he died a while ago.

3) The Germans', or at least those in the town. 街の人たちの自分たちに対する見方、考え方、付き合い方 -- perhaps if it were rephrased a bit it would be easier to see, something like 街の人たちが自分たち（ドイツに留学・滞在している人たち）に対して、ある（違和感のある）見方、考え方、付き合い方（が自分たち（ドイツ人でない例の人たち）不安を感じさせた） might make it all clearer. I probably misused 違和感, but I couldn't really think of anything else.

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
Rinilex-san would refer to "objective vs subjective （客観的 vs 主観的）" in my previous answer in the following thread.
いけない/ しばらく頃合い

I pointed out the difference between あり得るはずもない手紙 / 存在してはいけない手紙 and, for instance, あるとは思っていなかった手紙 / 存在するとは思えない手紙.

～てはいけない means "must not(forbiddance)" with volitional verbs. "Can't" also works in that sentence, maybe?

 

[Rinilex]

1) Yes. That's where it was! I was reading through it at the time I posted that, and now I'm having a go at a translation in English I wanted to make sure I got the meaning correctly. I'm not very familiar with はず.

2) I see, so confusion isn't right here... I'll go with "lost in the mail." Thanks! I think he's supposed to have been dead for a little less than a year. The timeline is pretty vague.

3) That makes it a lot clearer, thank you. So, in work and in daily life, the townsfolk held views/ mentalities against them - including how they interacted with them (that made them feel uncomfortable)?

 

[Toritoribe]

It's not "the townsfolk's views/ mentalities against them in work and in daily life". 仕事のこと、生活のこと、街の人たちの自分たちに対する見方、街の人たちの自分たちに対する考え方、街の人たちの自分たちに対する付き合い方 are all equally the examples of their difficulty / hardness in German life.

 

[Rinilex]

Right.

I think I made a mistake. "に対する" here, means "regarding, relating (to them)", not "against"?

As in, "the way [the townsfolk] saw them, thought of them, interacted with them..."?

 

[Glenn]

Yes, that's right.

 

[Rinilex]

Ah! Got there in the end. Thanks a lot for the help.

If it's all right to ask another question, later on in the text, there's this bit: "メンテナンスは完璧だった。いつ弾けるとも分からない時限爆弾を私は我が子のように大事に整備していた。" [Concerns a robot that later malfunctioned and turned on them.]

1) 完璧 seems to have a 'perfect/ flawless' kind of nuance as well as 'complete.' Was メンテナンス 'perfect' (without fault/ problems) or is he just saying he had completed メンテナンス on the robot?

2) 弾ける is the dictionary form of the verb, and not the potential form of はじく, right? What does とも mean here?

 

[Toritoribe]

1)
The former. The maintenance is perfect. 完璧だ can't mean "to complete / finish up".

2)
Yes, it's an intransitive verb 弾ける.
とも is from "a quotation particle と + も". とも分からない is a bit classical way of saying かも分からない.

 

[Rinilex]

ありがとうございます！

2) " かも分からない"、この意味は英語で"not even knowing"ですか？それとも"not knowing if it might"ですか？

その時、彼はロボットがいつか弾けると思っていましたか？

 

[Morphling]

はず/ いけない ・・・

どの時点で爆弾が弾けるか筆者でさえわらかなかったと思います。でも爆弾が弾けること自体は確かです。

「弾けるか(どうか)」だったら後者の方は辻褄が合うでしょう。

 

[Rinilex]

どの時点で爆弾が弾けるか筆者でさえわらかなかったと 思います。でも爆弾が弾けること自体は確かです。

「弾けるか(どうか)」だったら後者の方は辻褄が合うで しょう。

そうですね。で、"Not knowing when it might burst open (= 手に負えないようになる), I..."と言っていいですか？

ただ、それは(爆弾が弾ける)そのあと、筆者は驚いたの で、私は混乱していました。

でも今覚えるのは筆者の上司がそんなことを想定したっ て。おそらく筆者もそれを思っていましたね。；

ありがとうございました！

 

[Toritoribe]

も emhasizes the unpredictability in the expressions such like とも分からない, かも分からない, とも知れない or かも知れない. Thus, いつ弾けるとも分からない時限爆弾 has a nuance that the time bomb might explode the next moment, いつ終わるとも知れない痛み sounds like as if the pain continues forever.