~でいる

healer · 19 Sep 2022

電動オートバイでも1番の会社でいることができるようにしたいと思います
ホンダ「電動オートバイを2025年までに10種類以上売る」
What could be different in meaning or nuance if 会社でいる is replaced with 会社である or 会社だ if grammatical? What extra meaning does でいる impart above?

What could be different in meaning or nuance between the following two?
元気でいます
元気です

Does でいる go with all type of nouns, animate or in animate? でいる unlike である, it is not a literary term, isn it?
I have only seen examples of でいる that go with noun and na-adjectives. What about verbs and I-adjectives? If it doesn't go with verbs and I-adjectives, what other constructs will do the same job? If it does, please give me some examples. Thanks!

nice gaijin · 19 Sep 2022

The first one I see as maybe trying to humanize Honda a little bit by using いる, but I'm not sure if there's a grammatical nuance I'm missing.

I see the で in these scenarios (with nouns and na-adjectives) as the particle, and not a conjugation or expression of です (the way である is). This turns the adjective into an adverb... So as opposed to being genki, 元気でいます is like "to exist... genkily." You can use で to pair na-adjectives with other verbs. In writing I'll often put something like 元気で過ごしていますように。

With i-adjectives, this would be accomplished using 〜く＋Verb, i.e. 優しくして、激しくふり回った、潔く死んだ etc

healer · 19 Sep 2022

nice gaijin said:
maybe trying to humanize Honda a little bit by using いる

Thanks for your help! I think verb+ている and noun+でいる are two different constructs.

Majestic · 19 Sep 2022

I agree this feels like an anthropomorphization of the company. Using "iru" to make it feel more human.

healer · 20 Sep 2022

Thanks!
But how did で come in grammatically. I have supposed noun/na-adjectives+でいる is different from verb+~て/でいる.

Toritoribe · 27 Sep 2022

Nice gaijin-san already answered your question.
で is a particle to indicate a state in your example. Notice that it's actually 1番の会社でいる, not just 会社でいる, as the same meaning as 1番でいる. いる has a nuance of "to stay" here.

Unlike "-te form of verb + いる", "noun/na-adjectives + でいる" is not a set expression. いる is just a usual verb here.

healer · 28 Sep 2022

Thanks!

Toritoribe said:
で is a particle to indicate a state in your example

Must what is before で which is a state be a noun or a な-adjective?

nice gaijin said:
元気で過ごしていますように

Is な-adjective like 元気 supposed to be 元気に before the verb? Is 元気 here a state so a noun is used hence 元気で?

healer said:
元気でいます

Is 元気 here a noun too, 元気で?

nice gaijin said:
優しくして、激しくふり回った、潔く死んだ

Are the く-form adjectives above considered states?

nice gaijin · 29 Sep 2022

healer said:
Thanks!

Must what is before で which is a state be a noun or a な-adjective?

Is な-adjective like 元気 supposed to be 元気に before the verb? Is 元気 here a state so a noun is used hence 元気で?

Is 元気 here a noun too, 元気で?

Are the く-form adjectives above considered states?

As I mentioned, the use of na-adjective+で is like i-adjectives in the 〜く form, think of it more as an adverb, describing the way the verb is performed.

na-adjective+に and i-adjectives in the 〜く form can be used with certain verbs to indicate a transition, like 元気になる、and 優しくなる

healer · 29 Sep 2022

Thanks!

nice gaijin said:
元気になる

Do you think 元気に is an adverb too?

nice gaijin · 29 Sep 2022

healer said:
Thanks!

Do you think 元気に is an adverb too?

Not in this case, it's a state you have transitioned/are transitioning into, so the directional particle is used. When you use で you are already genki, and so the action you pair with 元気で is performed with the quality of the na-adjective

healer · 29 Sep 2022

Thanks a lot nice gaijin san!

Toritoribe · 30 Sep 2022

healer said:
Must what is before で which is a state be a noun or a な-adjective?

Yes.

healer said:
Is な-adjective like 元気 supposed to be 元気に before the verb? Is 元気 here a state so a noun is used hence 元気で?
Is 元気 here a noun too, 元気で?

It differs depending on the relation between the verb and the word before で/に in meaning. See the following examples.

×元気にいる
〇元気でいる

〇元気に過ごす
〇元気で過ごす

〇元気に動く
×元気で動く
(This is grammatical, but で is the -te form of copula here, i.e., 元気で doesn't express how/in what state the subject moves.)

×静かにいる
〇静かでいる

〇静かに過ごす
×静かで過ごす

〇静かに動く
×静かで動く
(same as 元気で動く)

静か is not a noun, but can be used with で.

healer · 5 Oct 2022

Thanks Toritoribe-san.

Toritoribe said:
〇元気でいる

〇元気に過ごす
〇元気で過ごす

I have been thinking hard the difference, if any, in meaning or nuance between the choice of で and that of に especially for the same state/condition with the same verb but I fail.
Does 元気でいる simply mean "to be lively"? Could you please put these three into the simplest sentences to see if I can discern the difference and understand better?
I supposed I understood 元気に過ごす which meant something like "pass time lively energetically" to me. With 元気で過ごす, I'm not sure.

Toritoribe · 5 Oct 2022

元気に過ごす and 元気で過ごす are almost the same in meaning. 元気に過ごす is more common, but 元気で過ごす is also acceptable (search results in a corpus: 元気に過ごす: 27, 元気で過ごす: 5).

healer · 6 Oct 2022

Thanks Toritoribe-san!

Toritoribe said:
This is grammatical, but で is the -te form of copula here, i.e., 元気で doesn't express how/in what state the subject moves.

I don't quite follow this. Is whatever described before で, be it a noun or na-adjective, we call it a state? What do we call that is described before に? I guess what is described before でいる has to be a state and いる has to go with で. Am I correct?

Thanks again!

Toritoribe · 7 Oct 2022

healer said:
I don't quite follow this. Is whatever described before で, be it a noun or na-adjective, we call it a state?

No, of course not. You can see the reason in the following easy-to-understand examples. (The first two are examples of "the -te form of copula", and で expresses the reason in the last one.)

彼は元気で、毎日よく動く。
彼は学生で、東京にいる。
彼はこの空港には乗り継ぎでいる。

healer said:
What do we call that is described before に?

It depends on the function of the word. If you are talking about 元気に過ごす or 静かに動く for example, it's usually interpreted as an adverbial form of na-adjective.

healer said:
I guess what is described before でいる has to be a state and いる has to go with で. Am I correct?

No. It seems to me that the key point of your confusing is that でいる is not a set expression, as I already pointed out.
Here's examples where に can be used with いる. Hope you can get the difference from で.

ここは安全なところだから、どこにでも自由にいていいよ。
彼女の犬は、いつも自然に彼女の近くにいる。

healer · 10 Oct 2022

Thanks for all the help, Toritoribe-san.

Toritoribe said:
彼は元気で、毎日よく動く。
彼は学生で、東京にいる。

I guess the で above is part of です, where just get truncated while in the middle of a sentence. Am I correct?
I was referring to those that were followed with a verb, such as those from your examples in the previous post above as follows.
元気でいる
元気で過ごす
静かでいる

Toritoribe said:
彼はこの空港には乗り継ぎでいる。

Could 乗り継ぎ be considered as a state?

Toritoribe said:
it's usually interpreted as an adverbial form of na-adjective

I have ALWAYS taken them all as adverbs. What else could there be?

Toritoribe said:
でいる is not a set expression

I think you mean でいる is to be interpreted as で+ いる, not でいる altogether, so で and いる can vary with the situation in hand. Am I correct?

Toritoribe said:
examples where に can be used with いる

In general I believe I understand how ~にいる and ~くに+verb work. It's ~で+verb which is still a puzzle to me. ~にいる as per your examples seem to indicate the whereabouts of the subject while ~でいる to me is like a state. Do I get them right?

Toritoribe said:
This is grammatical

×元気で動く
×静かで過ごす
×静かで動く
Was your statement here applicable to all your examples that marked with ×?
Why is it not acceptable but grammatical? Is it not acceptable for the usage we're discussing here or absolutely not acceptable in any usage?

Toritoribe said:
but で is the -te form of copula here

Were you saying 元気で動く is equivalent to 元気です、動く?

Toritoribe said:
元気で doesn't express how/in what state the subject moves.

Re:×元気で動く
Were you saying when で was used regardless what verb that followed, the whole expression didn't describe the state of action but simply the surrounding atmosphere and it applies to all like that such as those below as well?
×静かで過ごす
×静かで動く

Thanks for taking all the trouble.

~でいる

healer

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nice gaijin

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松葉解禁

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