ってんだ giving me more trouble

[raikado]

In a previous post, I was told that in these cases: 私・・・何をしたって言うの！？ and 私に何の関係があるというのだ, the subject of という is either "you" or people in general, in any case, not "I" the speaker.

Today I found 2 sentences that don't seem to follow the same rule, but I don't know if my theory is right. So, to describe the context...Girl A and a boy arrange to go to an amusement park to find some clues about...something. Or that's what she says to him, but the girl is actually tricking the boy into going on a date with her. With this in mind, the boy then goes to girl B and asks her to come to the amusement park as well, thinking that she might help. He doesn't explain the situation, so girl B thinks that he is asking her out on a date. They all meet at the amusement park and the girls get upset because there are 3 people when there should only be 2 and they don't want to talk anymore. The boy goes to buy some juice.

So now, girl B complains to the other girl: あいつはクズよ！！今日だってもう少し説明しろってのよ！！
At the same time, the boy, now alone, talks to himself: 早く家に帰ってゲームしたいのに・・・さっさと話し合いしろってんだ。

To me it feels like the sentences would translate as "He is garbage!! Today too, I mean, explain a little more, damn it!!" and "Even though I want to get back home sooner and play games...I mean, get talking already." Is my theory correct?

Now, assuming I am right, I notice a difference between these sentences and the previous ones, the lack of a question word. Are there sentences without question words that still have the subject "you" or someone else? Could you give some examples please?

Side question: In this sentence 二人とも私のお気にだし、イイと思って！！what is お気にだ?

 

[lanthas]

Are there sentences without question words that still have the subject "you" or someone else?

Of course. While the implicit subject in statements is usually "I", and in questions usually "you", it's certainly not limited to that:

野菜をもっと食べたほうがいい。(You should eat more vegetables)
このまま落第するよ。(At this rate I/you/he/she will fail the class)
どうすればいい？ (What should I do?)

Any subject would be grammatically valid in a subjectless sentence, so in practice, you have to pick the one that makes sense in the given context. For example, in the second sentence, you were presumably already talking about someone who's having trouble. And "What should you do?" just sounds weird.

Also, adding ～んです does not change the list of possible implicit subjects.

 

[raikado]

Ohh, sorry for not mentioning, I thought it was obvious from the post, but I was reffering only to sentences ending in ってんだ.

 

[Toritoribe]

The very basic problem is that いう doesn't always mean "to say", as in a set phrase ということだ. Those いう don't have a specific subject. The function is close to the one in the following usage.

窶堙??堋｢窶堋､窶堙娯?堙債【窶堙?陳ｾ窶堋､窶堙娯?堙債】窶堙戸?凪?督｡ - ﾂ坂?佛津ｪﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘? - gooﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘?麓/url]


お気に is a (young people's) slangy form of お気に入り.

 

[raikado]

If I managed to translate that correctly, then the construction signifies a reason or an explanation. In my senetences, "explanation" would work, somewhat...This is pretty confusing, especially when you add in the other sentences where "to iu" means "to say".

Could you give some more examples regarding this usage?

 

[Toritoribe]

See the examples in No.3.

３ 実質的な１（＝ 言葉を口に出す。心に思っていること、考え・判断などを相手に伝達するために、言葉に出したり、文章に表したりする。, i.e., "to say"）の意味が弱まったり、なくなったりして、常に他の語に付いて用いられる。

窶堋｢窶堋､ﾂ【ﾅ陳ｾ窶堋､ﾂ／窶ｰ]窶堋､ﾂ／ﾋ??窶堋､ﾂ】窶堙戸?凪?督｡ - ﾂ坂?佛津ｪﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘? - gooﾅｽﾂｫﾂ鞘?麓/url]

 

[raikado]

Ok, but there isn't a single example where という is used with an imperative. That's what I don't understand...by reading through those explanations I wouldn't expect to see a command before という.

 

[Toritoribe]

It's not the problem whether the clause preceding って is imperative or not. For instance, in a sentence そんなこと言われなくてもわかってるってんだ, ってんだ also has the same meaning as your examples. The point is that the expressions such like ってんだ, ってんだよ, ってのよ or っていうの emphasize the speaker's thoughts/emotions preceding it. In fact, in the sentence above, そんなこと言われなくてもわかってる is his thoughts in mind, not what's really said. This って can't be rephrased with と since this is a very colloquial expression.

Note that っつってんだよ or っつってんのよ are different. These are contractions of って言ってるんだよ and って言ってるのよ, respectively, i.e., the preceding clause is what the speaker really said.
e.g.
こっちに来いっつってんだよ。 ＝ こっちに来いって言ってるんだよ。

 

[raikado]

Ok, I think I understand how this works for now. I will see if I really understood when I encounter it again.

As usual, thank you Toritoribe.

 

[raikado]

Hello,

Sorry to go back on this when it has already been answered, but I have this impression that I can't get rid of.

どうして私がこんな目に遭うのよ！！ 私・・・何をしたって言うの！？

I know you told me that this って言うの has the subject "you", but I've encountered this pattern a few times since then and every time it feels like it is similar to というのは. The thing that makes me think this the most is the tense used. Shouldn't it be 何をしたって言ってるの？for it to mean "What are you saying that I did?"

Also, I found this sentence 私に何の関係があるというのだ. Here, the subject of という is "I", right?

No. The subject of いう is "you" or "people in general", as lanthas-san pointed out.

The same thing here. Is it not right to think of this というのだ as being similar to what has been described above(というのは)?

I am asking because right now, in my head, I think of these という as each being different, which is kind of inconvenient.

 

[Toritoribe]

というのは is mostly for explanation. It doesn't refer to what was actually said. (～と言ったのは can be an explanation about what was actually said, though.)

 

[raikado]

Hmm...how about here 私らと帰ってどうしようての？ Here ての asks for an explanation, right? I was thinking that if this asks for an explanation then why can't 何をしたって言うの also ask for an explanation?

I don't know...it feels awkward to think about the subject of 言う every time I see this construction. For example, today I saw the same 何したって言うの, but in this case it is asking about what a third person did. Also, it seems that the subject of 言う is also a third party. It seems rather complex to think about it this way ("What did they say he did."). That's why I thought that って言うの could just ask for an explanation.

Hmm...for instance...when you see this, do you think about who could be the subject of 言う?

 

[Mike Cash]

Letting your mind get locked into a single "って言う" has a subject of "you" way of viewing things is what your problem is. It prevents you from using your brain and common sense to analyze it and see that it is obviously a rhetorical question...."What did I do (to deserve this)?"

Avoid one-size-fits-all definitions for constructions. Getting away from translating would be an excellent start.

 

[Toritoribe]

koto & to iu in "to iu koto", "to iu imi", "to iu no wa" etc
ってんだ giving me more trouble

 

[raikado]

Letting your mind get locked into a single "って言う" has a subject of "you" way of viewing things is what your problem is. It prevents you from using your brain and common sense to analyze it and see that it is obviously a rhetorical question...."What did I do (to deserve this)?"

Avoid one-size-fits-all definitions for constructions. Getting away from translating would be an excellent start.

I understand what you are saying. I know you've told me this before as well. I don't usually think about these things, just "feel" them. It's just that at one point I ask myself "why is it like this?" or I start doubting that what I feel is right. And then these things keep bothering me, so I feel the need to have some kind of "logical way" to fall back onto in case I start asking "why" again.

So, from your answer I understand that you don't even think who is the subject and just take it as rhetorical marker, right?

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't think of the subject and I don't consider it a "marker" of anything at all. There are situations where it wouldn't necessarily be rhetorical.

 

[raikado]

koto & to iu in "to iu koto", "to iu imi", "to iu no wa" etc
ってんだ giving me more trouble

Ahh, it seems that at some point I started thinking of というのは and the ってんだ at the end of a sentence as being almost identical. Sorry about that. I also didn't ask my question in a good way.

So, to clarify this, does いう in 何したっていうの belong to this category

３ 実質的な１（＝ 言葉を口に出す。心に思っていること、考え・判断などを相手に伝達するために、言葉に 出したり、文章に表したりする。, i.e., "to say"）の意味が弱まったり、なくなったりして、常に他の語に付いて用いられる。

or this one?

1 言葉を口に出す。心に思っていること、考え・判断などを相手に伝達するために、言葉に出したり、文章に表したりする。

I know Mike advised me against thinking like this but, I can't really help myself.

 

[Toritoribe]

The former, it doesn't mean "to say", but it can refer to whose "thought/idea" it is even for the case (mostly from the context), for instance, もう少し説明しろ is the speaker's thoughts.

 

[raikado]

I understand now. Thank you!