~た/だほか

Toritoribe · 18 Mar 2021

healer said:
However I don't have other questions on tense at the moment.

Sorry to point out this, but your statement like "I had supposed the main verbs of the two examples you gave, i.e. 作っていたところです and 作っているところでした both mean "was just cooking"" shows that you actually don't (or maybe it could be already "didn't" now) understand the tense issue in the topic.

Actually, there is no "main verb of the sentence" in those two examples. 作っていた and 作っている are both "the main verb of the modifying clause", and it doesn't express the tense, as you might already realize. The main predicate of the sentence is the copula です and でした, respectively, and the tense of the sentence is decided by these words. (And I believe this is an answer to your question in your another thread.)

healer said:
I apologize that ~ようとしたところ has taken so much time. I'm aware that wasn't what I set out to ask in this thread. I didn't expect it to be a subject so complicated.

Actually, it's not so complicated. This is just a variation of "the relative tense in a modifying clause" just like 冷えたスイカ, after all. Again, it seems to me that your confusion is mostly from your understanding of this tense issue.

healer · 14 Apr 2021

Toritoribe said:
you actually don't (or maybe it could be already "didn't" now) understand the tense issue in the topic

I ask if I don't understand completely.

I've found ~ている does not necessarily translate to the present continuous tense in the English language.
For example:
切手を集めていますか？
Do you collect stamps?
FREE Japanese Word of the Day Widget - JapanesePod101
I suppose this refers to a hobby or a habit so the translation into simple present tense is alright in the English language. I have always supposed the ~ている form would be translated into present continuous tense though.

先生が明日はクラスはないと言っていました。
The teacher said there was no class tomorrow.
Direct & Indirect speech ＆って ( = tte) – Maggie Sensei-＆ってtte/
国は、お年寄りが2回受けるワクチンを今年6月の終わりまでに全部の市や町などに届けると言っています。

Easier Japanese Practice

日本では今年2月から、病院で働く人に新しいコロナウイルスのワクチンを注射しています。12日、65歳以上のお年寄りにもワクチンの注射が始まりました。 12日は、日本中にある120の会場でお年寄りにワクチンの注射を行いました。最初はワクチンが少ないため、施設で生活しているお年寄りから注射を始める市や町などもあります。東京都八王子市の市役所でワクチンを受けた80歳の女性は「病院に行くときにバスや電車に乗るので、ワクチンを受けることができてよかったです」と話していました。...

nhkeasier.com

Should the former mean "was saying" and the latter "is saying"?
I came across often both 言っている form and the plain past form 言った on the news. All was reporting someone said something in the past. I've read the former does not quote the message word for word but the gist only while the latter does. Is it the only difference?

Toritoribe said:
Actually, there is no "main verb of the sentence" in those two examples. 作っていた and 作っている are both "the main verb of the modifying clause", and it doesn't express the tense, as you might already realize. The main predicate of the sentence is the copula です and でした, respectively, and the tense of the sentence is decided by these words.

Perhaps I'm not very familiar with the terminology and I don't quite follow what you said either.

Toritoribe said:
ちょうど今料理を作っていたところです。
昨夜台所に入ると、ちょうど彼女が料理を作っているところでした。

Don't they end with です and てした respectively? Are you saying these are not sentences but modifying clauses?

Toritoribe said:
your confusion is mostly from your understanding of this tense issue

I'm still working on it. I can't be reading on tenses all the time as you might have suggested. I need a break if I don't get it after a while but revert to it every now and then.
Anyway I appreciate very much for your patience and tolerance.

Toritoribe · 15 Apr 2021

healer said:
I've found ~ている does not necessarily translate to the present continuous tense in the English language.
For example:
切手を集めていますか？
Do you collect stamps?
FREE Japanese Word of the Day Widget - JapanesePod101
I suppose this refers to a hobby or a habit so the translation into simple present tense is alright in the English language.

It's not the only one interpretation of that sentence. 切手を集めていますか？ can be interpreted as the present progressive tense depending on the context.

healer said:
I have always supposed the ~ている form would be translated into present continuous tense though.

Well, how about punctual verbs, then?

healer said:
先生が明日はクラスはないと言っていました。
The teacher said there was no class tomorrow.
Direct & Indirect speech ＆って ( = tte) – Maggie Sensei-＆ってtte/
国は、お年寄りが2回受けるワクチンを今年6月の終わりまでに全部の市や町などに届けると言っています。

Easier Japanese Practice

日本では今年2月から、病院で働く人に新しいコロナウイルスのワクチンを注射しています。12日、65歳以上のお年寄りにもワクチンの注射が始まりました。 12日は、日本中にある120の会場でお年寄りにワクチンの注射を行いました。最初はワクチンが少ないため、施設で生活しているお年寄りから注射を始める市や町などもあります。東京都八王子市の市役所でワクチンを受けた80歳の女性は「病院に行くときにバスや電車に乗るので、ワクチンを受けることができてよかったです」と話していました。...

nhkeasier.com

Should the former mean "was saying" and the latter "is saying"?
I came across often both 言っている form and the plain past form 言った on the news. All was reporting someone said something in the past. I've read the former does not quote the message word for word but the gist only while the latter does. Is it the only difference?

～と言った/言いました just expresses that someones said something, whereas ～と言っていた/言っていました is used to tell the listener that someone said something. That's why 言っている is used in your two examples.

healer said:
Perhaps I'm not very familiar with the terminology and I don't quite follow what you said either.

Don't they end with です and てした respectively? Are you saying these are not sentences but modifying clauses?

です and でした are not verb. だ/です (and its inflections) are copula, as I already wrote.

healer · 19 Apr 2021

Toritoribe said:
how about punctual verbs

Thanks for reminding me. I was thinking of durative verbs at the time.

Toritoribe said:
～と言った/言いました just expresses that someones said something, whereas ～と言っていた/言っていました is used to tell the listener that someone said something.

May I rephrase what you said as follows so that I make sure I understand?
The former has a plural subject while the latter a singular subject. The latter explicitly tells the listener while the former doesn't. Are these the only differences? They seem very trivial and do not quite make sense to me.

Toritoribe said:
です and でした are not verb

I never said they're verbs. Do you refer to 作っていたところ and 作っているところ as modifying clauses in their sentences and you say so because of ところ immediately following the verb? Are they something like verb goes with こと?

Toritoribe said:
"the main verb of the modifying clause", and it doesn't express the tense

I see 作っていたところ in the former and 作っているところ in the latter. Isn't 作っていた expressed in past/perfect tense while the tense of the latter in the copula?

Toritoribe · 19 Apr 2021

healer said:
I never said they're verbs. Do you refer to 作っていたところ and 作っているところ as modifying clauses in their sentences and you say so because of ところ immediately following the verb? Are they something like verb goes with こと?

I had supposed the main verbs of the two examples you gave, i.e. 作っていたところです and 作っているところでした both mean "was just cooking".

~ている versus ~ているところ

When should one use ~ているところ instead of ~ている to convey an action in progress? Is it only when ~ている can possibly refer to a resultant state of a process or a habitually repeated action one uses ~ているところ for clarity? Some say one is more engaging when ~ているところ is used. But how can one not engaging if...

jref.com

What do you refer to by "the main verbs" in your question quoted above? Judging from what you wrote after "i.e." and the underlined parts in the quotation in the linked page above, do you think the whole 作っていたところです and 作っているところでした are "verbs"?

I'm going to answer to your other questions after solving this one.

healer · 28 Apr 2021

Toritoribe said:
What do you refer to by "the main verbs" in your question quoted above?

I took 作っていた and 作っている as verbs. I called them the main verbs because they were the only verbs in the sentences. Though the latter had another verb with と, I regarded that was in the subordinate clause. ところ was to qualify the verbs. です and でした follow respectively because ところ was a noun I supposed.

Toritoribe said:
the underlined parts

If you were referring to 作っていたところです and 作っているところでした, my answers would be as above.

Please disregard my questions on ～と言いました-and-～と言っていました in this thread. I would like to start another thread for it later when I get a chance. There is much more to it.

Toritoribe · 28 Apr 2021

Then, you are misunderstanding the term "main verb." This term usually refers to the main verb of the sentence or main clause, not the verb(s) of the modifying clause, subordinate clause or like that. (As you wrote, 入る can be said as the (main) verb of subordinate clause in 昨夜台所に入ると、ちょうど彼女が料理を作っているところでした。.) Thus, the verbs in the following examples are not the main verb (of the sentence), either, even if they are the only one verb in each sentence.

今までで一番面白かったのは、昨日見た映画です。
悲しかったのは、試合に負けた時です。
生徒たちは、とても緊張している様子でした。

The structure of 昨夜台所に入ると、ちょうど彼女が料理を作っているところでした。 is close to the examples above. 彼女が料理を作っている is the modifying clause, 作っている is the (main) verb of the modifying clause, and, as you wrote, ところ is the modified noun, meaning "scene/situation."

Even though the present progressive form 作っている is used here, it's actually the past progressive tense because of でした at the end of the sentence. でした is a copula, i.e., the main predicate of the sentence (述部) which decides the tense of the sentence, just like 昨日は晴れでした or 彼は去年まで学生でした.

The reason why the present progressive form 作っている is used is because it's written from the viewpoint at the time. It doesn't show the tense of the sentence, as I wrote. Thus, the literal translation of the main clause is something like "(it) was a scene/situation where she was just cooking", and as a result, it means "she was just cooking." 作っているところです can't be used instead of でした since it's a past event.

Hope this explanation can be helpful for your understanding.

healer said:
Please disregard my questions on ～と言いました-and-～と言っていました in this thread. I would like to start another thread for it later when I get a chance. There is much more to it.

I see.

healer · 1 May 2021

Toritoribe said:
Thus, the verbs in the following examples are not the main verb (of the sentence), either, even if they are the only one verb in each sentence.

Sorry may I ask how a sentence itself is a subordinate clause while there is no main clause? Mustn't a subordinate clause be subordinate to a main clause? I have problem identifying a subordinate clause where there is no main clause. If it is too much to ask, please disregard it and I hope it might dawn on me one day.

Toritoribe · 1 May 2021

Judging from your question, you seem to be misunderstanding the terms, either. The main clause and subordinate clause are used only for a complex sentence(複文), i.e., a sentence that has two or more clauses. (Needless to say, a modifying clause (連体修飾節) is different from the clauses I mentioned above.)

In other words, a structure such like "a sentence itself is a subordinate clause while there is no main clause" doesn't exist, except special cases, for instance, an inversion or the main clause is omitted since it's obvious from the context.

The three examples I wrote in my previous post and ちょうど今料理を作っていたところです。 are all a simple sentence(単文). There is neither main clause nor subordinate clause in each sentence. 昨夜台所に入ると、ちょうど彼女が料理を作っているところでした。 is the only one example of a complex sentence (昨夜台所に入ると is the subordinate clause, and ちょうど彼女が料理を作っているところでした is the main clause, of course).

healer · 15 May 2021

Thanks for all the explanations!
I had supposed every sentence no matter how simple it is would consist of one clause and I had expected that is the main clause. I got thrown when you said some of your examples have neither main clause nor subordinate clause.

I thank you for correcting me and not giving up on me.

healer · 7 Jun 2021

Toritoribe said:
modifying clause (連体修飾節)

Is modifying clause you have been talking about the same as relative clause? I can hardly find discussions on modifying clause on the net but there are quite a few on relative clauses.

Toritoribe · 7 Jun 2021

"Modifying clause" is one of the most commonly used translations of 連体修飾節. "Relative clause" is also used because it's easier to understand for native English speakers or people who are familiar with English grammar, but speaking strictly, 連体修飾節 in Japanese is not completely the same as relative clause in function (連体修飾節 has a wider functions).

Incidentally, relative clause is usually called 関係節 or 関係詞節 in Japanese.

Also, there are other translations of 連体修飾節 like "adnominal clause (a literal translation of the Japanese term)" or "attributive clause (from the viewpoint of the function, as same as "modifying clause")".

healer · 22 Jun 2021

Toritoribe said:
speaking strictly, 連体修飾節 in Japanese is not completely the same as relative clause in function (連体修飾節 has a wider functions).

Thanks Toritoribe-san.
Could you please give me a simple example each sufficient enough to illustrate the difference between modifying clause and relative clause in Japanese language?
Thanks again.

Buntaro · 22 Jun 2021

Examples in English

a man with a TV (modifying clause)

a man who has a TV (relative clause containing the relative pronoun "who")

Toritoribe · 22 Jun 2021

"With a TV" is a phrase(句), not clause(節).

Phrase - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Clause - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

healer said:
Could you please give me a simple example each sufficient enough to illustrate the difference between modifying clause and relative clause in Japanese language?

1. 彼が聞いたうそ
a lie that he heard
彼が聞いた modifies うそ. うそ is the object of 聞いた in function, as in 彼が/はうそを聞いた "he heard a lie."

2. 彼が死んだといううそ
a lie that he died
彼が死んだという modifies うそ also here, but うそ is not the object, subject or any other argument or adjunct of the clause 彼が死んだ. The clause 彼が死んだ is the contents of うそ.

彼が聞いた is a relative clause(関係節) in #1 (it's also 連体修飾節, of course), while 彼が死んだという is 連体修飾節, but not relative clause in #2.

healer · 29 Jun 2021

Buntaro said:
Examples in English

Thanks for the input.

Toritoribe said:
彼が聞いた is a relative clause(関係節) in #1 (it's also 連体修飾節, of course), while 彼が死んだという is 連体修飾節, but not relative clause in #2.

Thanks Totitoribe-san!
So the conclusion is they are all modifying clauses to the nouns they refer to. They can only be relative clauses as well if they're not quoted with という.
I'm surprised the latter is not a relative clause. I have learnt that というworks like relative pronouns too.

Toritoribe · 29 Jun 2021

healer said:
They can only be relative clauses as well if they're not quoted with という.

Not really.

いつもわからないという生徒
有名な武将が建てたという城

いつもわからないという and 有名な武将が建てたという are both a relative clause in these examples. These two という and the one in 彼が死んだといううそ are all different from each other in function and meaning. You can't distinguish the two types of modifications just by whether という is there or not. (I believe I already explained the reason clearly in my previous post, so I hope you can understand just by rereading it.)

healer said:
I'm surprised the latter is not a relative clause. I have learnt that というworks like relative pronouns too.

Simply, that's wrong.

healer · 5 Jul 2021

Toritoribe said:
These two という and the one in 彼が死んだといううそ are all different from each other in function and meaning.

Toritoribe said:
いつもわからないという生徒
有名な武将が建てたという城

Toritoribe said:
彼が死んだといううそ

Thanks Toritoribe-san. I can see the given examples of the relative clauses like what I have learnt whereby the noun in question is qualified. Whereas the example of the non-relative modifying clause is the apposition to the subject it refers to.

Toritoribe said:
Simply, that's wrong.

Thanks for the correction and clarification.

~た/だほか

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