~た/だほか

healer · 15 Feb 2021

What does ほか in ~た/だほか do or mean in the following sentences from 去年の農林水産物・食品の輸出額 8年連続で過去最高を更新 | NHKニュース Thanks!

中でも、新型コロナウイルスの影響でいわゆる巣ごもり需要が海外でも広がり家庭向けの需要が高い鶏卵が2倍余りになったほか、豚肉も55％増加しました。

海外の日本食レストランが休業するなどして外食向けの需要が振るわずホタテ貝やぶりの輸出が落ち込んだほか、香港での展示会が中止され真珠の輸出も76.9％の減少でした。

NHK news of yesterday:
また郡山市では60代の女性が自宅の階段で転倒して足の付け根の骨を折る大けがをしたほか、白河市では80歳の女性が倒れてきたタンスにあたってけがをしたということです。

また、石巻市では80代の男性が自宅で転倒し、頭から出血したほか、東松島市では80代の女性がベッドから転倒し肩にけがをしたということです。

桜川市で自宅にいた90代の男性の額に壁から落ちてきた額が当たり、出血したほか、龍ケ崎市でも自宅にいた20代の女性が落ちてpきた物で頭にけがをしたということです。

While I've got your attention, can I ask you what とろ in 出ようとしたとろ in the sentence below does or means?
千葉県によりますと、震度4を観測した浦安市で50代の女性が地震に驚いて家の外に出ようとしたとろ、一時的に意識を失い、病院に搬送されました。

bentenmusume · 15 Feb 2021

healer said:
What does ほか in ~た/だほか do or mean in the following sentences from 去年の農林水産物・食品の輸出額 8年連続で過去最高を更新 | NHKニュース Thanks!

"In addition to" or "aside from". All the sentences are describing one thing that happened, and then a (related) thing that also happened.

healer said:
While I've got your attention, can I ask you what とろ in 出ようとしたとろ in the sentence below does or means?
千葉県によりますと、震度4を観測した浦安市で50代の女性が地震に驚いて家の外に出ようとしたとろ、一時的に意識を失い、病院に搬送されました。

That とろ just is a typo of ところ, yes? This is just the typical usage of past/past volitional + ところ to mean "When (someone) did X (or 'as they were about to/when they tried to do X' in the case of the volitional, then Y happened."

mdchachi · 15 Feb 2021

healer said:
What does ほか in ~た/だほか

Other, another, additionally
There's a couple examples here.

healer said:
出ようとしたとろ

I'm guessing it's a typo and should be ところ

healer · 17 Feb 2021

bentenmusume said:
then a (related) thing that also happened

Is the related thing referred to by the next part of the sentence after the comma, or something not explicitly specified anywhere in the sentence?

bentenmusume said:
past/past volitional + ところ

I have come across present form of a verb + ところto mean "about to, on the verge of" and past form of a verb + ところ to mean "was just doing, was in the process of doing, have just done, just finished doing", not past volitional form + ところ though. I shall do some searching on it. Thanks!

Toritoribe · 18 Feb 2021

healer said:
Is the related thing referred to by the next part of the sentence after the comma, or something not explicitly specified anywhere in the sentence?

The former.

healer said:
I have come across present form of a verb + ところto mean "about to, on the verge of" and past form of a verb + ところ to mean "was just doing, was in the process of doing, have just done, just finished doing", not past volitional form + ところ though. I shall do some searching on it.

Have you learned "volitional form of a verb + とする"? ～（よ）うとしたところ is the combination of these two expressions.

healer · 18 Feb 2021

Toritoribe said:
Have you learned "volitional form of a verb + とする"? ～（よ）うとしたところ is the combination of these two expressions.

Yes, I have but not the combination of both. I shall spend some time on it next. I've just found some link such as Japanese ようとしたところで grammar youtoshitatokorode - Learn Japanese online.

In the meantime I would like to get some clarification on the following. Thanks!

bentenmusume said:
the typical usage of past/past volitional + ところ to mean "When (someone) did X (or 'as they were about to/when they tried to do X' in the case of the volitional, then Y happened."

Is bentenmusume-san saying the following?
Verb of past tense + ところ such as 出たところ means "when (someone) did X" and verb of past tense in volitional form such as 出ようとしたところ in the quoted sentence means "as they were about to" or "when they tried to do X". Which is which?

bentenmusume · 18 Feb 2021

The volitional form of a verb + とする means "to try/attempt to do something" or "to be about to / on the verge of doing something".
出ようとする = to attempt to go out/be on the verge of going out, 食べようとする = to attempt to eat/be on the verge of eating.

Past tense verb + ところ means "Just as (someone) did (verb)" or "when (someone) did (verb)...[something happened]
出たところ = just as (someone) went out, 食べたところ = just as (someone) ate, etc.

As Toritoribe-san said, the expression you asked about is just the combination of the two.

Hence, volitional form verb + としたところで is the means "just as (someone) tried/attempted to do something" or "just as (someone) was about to / on the verge of doing something" ... [then something else happened.

healer said:
"as they were about to" or "when they tried to do X". Which is which?

This is another case where I think you're getting yourself in trouble by thinking in terms of English.
The Japanese volitional form + とする can cover both meanings, and when you think about it, they're not all that different. In either case, someone has a mind to perform an action, and perhaps begins the process of doing so, but hasn't quite executed it.

Toritoribe · 20 Feb 2021

healer said:
I've just found some link such as Japanese ようとしたところで grammar youtoshitatokorode - Learn Japanese online.

Unfortunately, the site you linked is another example of unreliable learning sites existed in the internet again. There are many unnatural or even wrong example sentences there.

healer · 20 Feb 2021

Toritoribe said:
the site you linked is another example of unreliable learning sites

Thanks for the advice! I'll bear in mind.
I understand you're not approving of this site but I would like to ask about one of the examples given there. Is 気を付けました in 学校をサボろうとしたところで、学校で忘れ物に気を付けました where it is wrong? I can't read this "being careful" into the sentence.

bentenmusume said:
The volitional form of a verb + とする means "to try/attempt to do something" or "to be about to / on the verge of doing something".

Is this construct the same as the present form of verb + ところ which has the same meaning of "about to; on the verge of"? Any difference in usage between them?

bentenmusume said:
volitional form verb + としたところで is the means "just as (someone) tried/attempted to do something" or "just as (someone) was about to / on the verge of doing something" ... [then something else happened.

Thanks for your explanation, bentenmusume-san!

Toritoribe · 20 Feb 2021

healer said:
Is 気を付けました in 学校をサボろうとしたところで、学校で忘れ物に気を付けました where it is wrong?

気を付けました is obviously a misuse of 気付きました. Plus, 学校で is also wrong. で indicates the location of action, i.e., 学校 is the location where the subject realized it. Thus, 学校で忘れ物に気付きました means "I realized at school that I had forgotten somethings somewhere." The correct sentence should be 学校に忘れ物をしたことに気付きました for "I realized that I had forgotten somethings at school."

Also, I don't fully agree with using ところで here. It's understandable, but 学校をサボろうとしたとき/学校をサボろうとしましたが、学校に忘れ物をしたことに気付きました。 is more natural.

healer said:
Is this construct the same as the present form of verb + ところ which has the same meaning of "about to; on the verge of"? Any difference in usage between them?

"The volitional form of a verb + とする" can't express the simple present tense, as same as many other verbs, while "the present form of a verb + ところだ" is the present tense/an action that is about to be done now. Thus, "the volitional form of a verb + としている" is close to "the present form of a verb + ところだ".

healer · 22 Feb 2021

Thanks Toritoribe-san.

I came cross at 米ファイザー社 "ワクチン一般的な医療用冷凍庫でも保存可" | NHKニュース verb of dictionary form + ほか the other day, instead of verb of past tense + ほか that I asked earlier. I suppose they're all just the same meaning same function but is referring to action of different time. Am I right?
アメリカの規制当局の承認を得られれば、流通が容易になるほか、接種が柔軟に行えることが期待されています。

Thanks again!

bentenmusume · 22 Feb 2021

That's correct. It is talking about things that are hoped/expected will happen (in the future, if approval is obtained), so the past tense wouldn't be appropriate in this context.

healer · 22 Feb 2021

Toritoribe said:
"the volitional form of a verb + としている" is close to "the present form of a verb + ところだ"

When you said the present form of a verb, were you referring to just simple present such as 食べるところだ or present continuous 食べているところだ?

bentenmusume · 22 Feb 2021

It's the former.

ちょうどこれから朝ごはんを食べるところだ
and
田中さんは、今昼ご飯を食べようとしている

...both describe a similar situation, in which preparations have been made but the actual act of eating has not yet been commenced.

今、ちょうど晩ご飯を食べているところ means the act of eating is currently in progress, same as 食べています (but, as previously mentioned, with more emphasis on the point of being right in the middle of doing that. 食べている最中（さいちゅう） is another expression often used to emphasize this.)

healer · 23 Feb 2021

Toritoribe said:
学校に忘れ物をしたことに気付きました

Thanks Toritoribe-san!

Toritoribe said:
I don't fully agree with using ところで here.

Is it simply too formal an expression to be used? Could that in the text of NHK news I quoted be replaced with your suggested words as well?

healer said:
出ようとしたとろ

I have come to realize that the original text 出ようとしたところ I quoted didn't come with で at the end. Is で optional in grammar without affecting the meaning?

Toritoribe said:
"The volitional form of a verb + とする" can't express the simple present tense,

Are you saying this construct can only be used to describe action in the past and it always ends with ~ようとした?

Toritoribe · 24 Feb 2021

healer said:
Is it simply too formal an expression to be used?

No, it's not the problem of formal vs. casual at all. ところ is not formal in the first place. It's commonly used in daily conversation.

ところ is originally means "place", as you know, so this word is used for a scene/situation rather than just "when", thus, it's OK, for instance, for 学校を出ようとしたところで, but unnatural for 学校をサボろうとした, which is more likely an idea.

However, 授業をサボろうとしたところ（で）、先生に見つかってしまいました is OK. In this sentence, it can be considered that 授業をサボろうとしたところ actually refers to "the moment the subject was going out from a classroom" or the like.

healer said:
Could that in the text of NHK news I quoted be replaced with your suggested words as well?

Do you mean if 家の外に出ようとしたところ can be rephrased as 家の外に出ようとしたとき or 家の外に出ようとしましたが? If so, yes, but the nuance is a bit different form the original.

healer said:
I have come to realize that the original text 出ようとしたところ I quoted didn't come with で at the end. Is で optional in grammar without affecting the meaning?

In that sentence, yes.

healer said:
Are you saying this construct can only be used to describe action in the past and it always ends with ~ようとした?

No, する can be used to express the future tense or habitual action, as same as many other action verbs.

healer · 2 Mar 2021

Toritoribe said:
Thus, 学校で忘れ物に気付きました means "I realized at school that I had forgotten somethings somewhere."

Could this sentence be interpreted as "I noticed (saw) at school the thing I had forgotten" since 気づく can also mean "notice, recognize, perceive"?

Toritoribe said:
"The volitional form of a verb + とする" can't express the simple present tense

After reading all the answers, you seemed to say there're ~ようとした and ~よとしている but no ~ようとする. Have I got it right?

Toritoribe said:
No, する can be used to express the future tense or habitual action

I was referring to the topic immediately above this one. Sorry for the confusion.

Toritoribe said:
which is more likely an idea

I'm at a loss to know why 学校をサボろうとした is likely an idea which is not acceptable to go with ところ while 学校を出ようとした is okay being regarded as a situation. The difference between them is only the verbs used. Then you said 授業をサボろうとした would be okay too. This compared with the one which is not okay the difference is only the object of the verb.

Toritoribe said:
In that sentence, yes.

What is the function of で there? Why is it dispensable?
Is で there if exists just part of です at the end of a sentence and without す to indicate there is something more to follow?

Is だ optional?
If I have learnt correctly, I understand sentences in plain or casual form ending with a noun or な-adjectives should be followed with だ while verb or い-adjectives can go with nothing. I can see for example you said above "the present form of a verb + ところだ"
Should sentence ending with ところ always be followed with だ? If so, I must have quoted wrongly on the other thread.

healer said:
she would have said メメールを送くっているところ.

What about words neither a noun nor a な-adjectives and neither a verb, neither an い-adjectives such as べき for example? I have seen the following at JLPT N3 Grammar: 上で (ue de) Meaning – JLPTsensei.com
工事計画は、周辺住民との話し合いの上で決められるべきだ。

JLPT N5 Grammar: ちゃいけない・じゃいけない (cha ikenai / ja ikenai) – JLPTsensei.com

Learn Japanese grammar: (cha ikenai) / (cha dame) / (ja ikenai) / (ja dame). Meaning: must not; may not; cannot (spoken Japanese). This grammar is...

jlptsensei.com

寝る前にスマホを見ちゃダメよ。
ここはきけんなので、入っちゃダメだよ。

Toritoribe · 2 Mar 2021

healer said:
Could this sentence be interpreted as "I noticed (saw) at school the thing I had forgotten" since 気づく can also mean "notice, recognize, perceive"?

No. 忘れ物に気付く usually only means 忘れ物をしたことに気付く. Another verb is used for that meaning, for instance 忘れ物を見つけた. If you want to use 気付く, it's necessary to explain the situation in detail, e.g.（誰かの）忘れ物が置いてあるのに気付いた.

healer said:
After reading all the answers, you seemed to say there're ~ようとした and ~よとしている but no ~ようとする. Have I got it right?

～ようとする is possible as the future tense or habitual action, but it's not the simple present tense, which expresses the present state/action. That's what I meant.

Remember your question to benmenmusume-san's explanation "Just consider the fundamental difference between する and している and apply it to the meaning of the volitional form + とする structure. " in your another thread. This is exactly the one.

healer said:
I'm at a loss to know why 学校をサボろうとした is likely an idea which is not acceptable to go with ところ while 学校を出ようとした is okay being regarded as a situation. The difference between them is only the verbs used. Then you said 授業をサボろうとした would be okay too. This compared with the one which is not okay the difference is only the object of the verb.

As I already wrote, in the example 授業をサボろうとしたところ（で）、先生に見つかってしまいました, 授業をサボろうとした is interpreted that it actually expresses a physical, concrete action something like "the subject was going out from a classroom", not just an idea/plan in mind, because of the main clause 先生に見つかってしまいました. As you know, no one can see/find/come across someone else's idea/plan in mind (well, except a telepath or something). The context is the key, as always.

healer said:
What is the function of で there?

で is a particle to indicate the location/situation/scene of the action.

healer said:
Why is it dispensable?

ところ also functions as a conjunctive particle by itself. That's why で is optional there.

ところ【所／▽処】の解説
５（「…したところ」の形で接続助詞的に用いて）上述した内容を条件として文を続ける。順接にも逆接にも用いる。「訪ねた―、不在だった」「依頼した―、断られた」

goo

NTTドコモが運営するポータルサイト「goo」。今話題のニュースやドコモのキャンペーン、サービス紹介などお役立ちコンテンツを展開しています。

dictionary.goo.ne.jp

It's similar to とき vs. ときに.
e.g.
テレビを見ていたとき（に）、電話が鳴った。

healer said:
Is だ optional?

Depending on the situation, yes (e.g. in colloquial expressions, title of an article, phrase used in a caption, etc.). It has nothing to do with ところ vs. ところで, as you would already realize, though.

healer · 6 Mar 2021

Toritoribe said:
～ようとする is possible as the future tense or habitual action

For habitual action, ~よとしている is to be used, isn't it?
However for the meaning of "to try to ...; to be about to do ...", how could it be used for future tense or habitual action? Perhaps one can say "One will try to" but how could one say "One will habitually be ABOUT to do something"?

Toritoribe said:
ところ also functions as a conjunctive particle by itself. That's why で is optional there.

So で after ところ in a figurative sense like with ~ようとしたところ is always optional, except when it refers to a physical place, isn't it?

Toritoribe said:
It has nothing to do with ところ vs. ところで

I was referring to what you said below. Is だ in the following constructs also optional?

Toritoribe said:
while "the present form of a verb + ところだ" is the present tense/an action that is about to be done now. Thus, "the volitional form of a verb + としている" is close to "the present form of a verb + ところだ".

Toritoribe · 6 Mar 2021

healer said:
For habitual action, ~よとしている is to be used, isn't it?

typo: ～ようとしている

Both are used, but there are cases where only one of them can be used depending on the context.

healer said:
how could one say "One will habitually be ABOUT to do something"?

この犬は、知らない人を見るといつも吠えようとする。
(～ようとする is a present habitual action, not the future tense or guess "will habitually", by the way.)

彼は毎日早起きしようとしている。
(This sentence often suggests that the subject actually fails to get up early everyday.)

healer said:
So で after ところ in a figurative sense like with ~ようとしたところ is always optional, except when it refers to a physical place, isn't it?

Do you mean "location", like "garden" as in 木が枯れているところ, by "a physical place"? If so, it's not applied to the structure ～ところ（で） as a subordinate clause, which is what we are talking about so far, in the first place.

Anyway, here's examples where で is optional or not.

刺身を食べようとしたところ、賞味期限が切れていた。
(で can't be used.)

刺身を食べようとしたところ（で）、妹が帰ってきた。
(で is optional.)

刺身を食べようとしたところで、どうせ食べられない。
(で can't be omitted.)

healer said:
I was referring to what you said below. Is だ in the following constructs also optional?

In colloquial expressions or like that, yes, as I already answered.

You asked if で in ところで was the -te form of です, and then also asked if だ in ところだ was optional or not. It seems to me that you thought "で is optional in ところで" had something to do with "だ is optional in ところだ." That's why I wrote "It has nothing to do with ところ vs. ところで."

You need to distinguish ～ところだ at the end of a sentence and ～ところで at the end of a subordinate clause.
Plus, ところ as a pronoun for a place is also different from ところ we are talking about. In the examples below, ところ refers to a real place/location. (Incidentally, で in the second example is the -te form of copula (だ/です), and it can't be omitted.)

ここが私が生まれたところだ。
ここはある大名が城を建てたところで、今は公園になっている。

On the other hand, ところ is more likely temporal (when/at the moment) in the following examples as same as other examples in this thread.

たった今仔牛が生まれたところだ。
ある大名がここに城を建てたところ（で）、急死してしまった。

Although both ところ and ところで work well in the last example, the nuance/situation where it's used is different. ところ sounds like 城を建てた is the cause/reason of the daimyo's death, while ところで suggests that he had a plan after constructing the castle (e.g. to construct another castle, to invade a neighboring country).

healer · 15 Mar 2021

Toritoribe said:
Both are used, but there are cases where only one of them can be used depending on the context.

Could you please expand on where only one of them can be used?

Toritoribe said:
This sentence often suggests that the subject actually fails to get up early everyday.

Do ようとする and ようとしている like both of your example sentences always have the connotation of the subjects failing to do what are meant to do? Is this the difference between する & している and ようとする & ようとしている when they refer to habitual actions? Is as per your examples ようとする more on irregular activity since strangers can show up any time of the day whereas ようとしている on regular activity as it happens every day?

Toritoribe said:
Do you mean "location", like "garden" as in 木が枯れているところ, by "a physical place"? If so, it's not applied to the structure ～ところ（で） as a subordinate clause

Yes that was what I meant. I realized too ～ところ(で) in a subordinate clause works differently and this is my current problem understanding where で is indispensable or optional or totally inappropriate even after reading your three examples of three different possibilities. Could you please put the rules into words? Thanks!

Toritoribe said:
ところで suggests that he had a plan after constructing the castle

Were you saying with ところで the plan or something indirectly caused his death?

Toritoribe said:
刺身を食べようとしたところ（で）、妹が帰ってきた。
(で is optional.)

So when で is optional, are there always two different interpretations? I can't think of other possible interpretation on this though.

Toritoribe · 16 Mar 2021

Well, judging from your questions so far, it seems to me that you are confused because you are asking too many questions at once. Also, it seems that some of you confusion are caused by your understanding of the difference between the present form and the -te iru form of verbs, just like ようとする vs. ようとしている or 存在する vs. 存在している in your another thread.

Furthermore, it's also related to the difference between the tense in the main predicate(verb/adjective/copula) and the one in a modifying clause. As you already got explanations in your previous thread, the tense in the modifying clause is not (well, at least not always) the absolute tense. It's also applied to the verb before ところ.

The functions of the present form, past form and the -te iru form of verbs are a fundamental grammatical issue learners must learn, and textbooks spend many chapters just for this topic. It's quite hard to explain it thoroughly and comprehensively. I would be able to the reason why the form is used in a specific example, for instance, the reason why the present form is used in この犬は、知らない人を見るといつも吠えようとする。 is because the present form can express features/characteristics of the subject just like この犬はよく吠える or チーターは速く走る, but it doesn't guarantee that other similar forms have the same function/meaning.

How about just tackling this tense issue before thinking about many other structures at the same time?

bentenmusume · 16 Mar 2021

In addition to everything Toritoribe-san said, I'd like to add one more thing from the perspective of someone who learned Japanese as a second language.

I think another issue is that you're trying to learn these structures by thinking up all these variations and potential/possible uses and asking about them, but this doesn't really work because they're all divorced from any real context, and Japanese is a very context-based language.

I'm recalling my own days of language learning and trying to think of why I never found myself asking questions the ones you're asking now about tense and present/past/te-iru form, and I think it's because I focused on just exposing myself to these forms through reading and listening to Japanese, and was able to internalize the meanings and nuances by seeing them used enough times in different contexts, thinking about them for myself, and gradually coming to an understanding.

I'm not saying that all of your questions are useless (you often do post very meaningful and thought-provoking questions), but at this point you're just getting so abstract and nitpicky about things that it just feels like you're going in circles. Like Toritoribe-san says, maybe it's time to take a step back.

(edited to fix typo)

bentenmusume · 16 Mar 2021

And just to clarify, what I mean by "take a step back" is not that you need to take a break from posting here entirely, but maybe let some of these questions go, and get back to reading Japanese, thinking about the forms you encounter for yourself given the explanations Toritoribe-san and I have already given you, and ask more questions based on specific things you can't figure out, rather than drowning yourself in overly abstracted hypotheticals.

healer · 18 Mar 2021

Toritoribe said:
How about just tackling this tense issue before thinking about many other structures at the same time?

bentenmusume said:
maybe let some of these questions go

I do agree that tense is one of the important and basic things I need to master. However I don't have other questions on tense at the moment. The questions I ask be they on tense or other constructs they just occur to me as I read. Though I mean to read on certain subject, inevitably questions of other nature might come up as I go along. I don't ask everything I don't know. I realise I need to be considerate. I usually ask further questions in the same thread only if they relate to the topic being discussed. Sometimes questions might come up from explanations and examples.

I apologize that ~ようとしたところ has taken so much time. I'm aware that wasn't what I set out to ask in this thread. I didn't expect it to be a subject so complicated. Anyway I am happy to have any thread I start to be left at any state you see fit. I never expect to be able to fully understand every answer though I would try my best and do some research as well. Having said that I appreciate every effort that you Toritoribe-san and bentenmusume-san contribute to my learning and understanding. Thanks a lot! Have a good day!

~た/だほか

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