- 31 Jul 2014
- 179
- 2
には/では is used for negative potential since 使用人 is the "lower" example comparing to 主人. にも/でも is used for positive potential in these cases.
The reason why には/では is used here is because this structure expresses a characteristic of the topic.
That makes sense. But I would say that being able manage/cooperate with someone YOU hate (even if they admire you for some reason) while keeping your emotions in check is also not that easy xD
That being said... Your interpretation is more logical (and likely).
That's a structure for comparison, and に indicates the standard(基準). The "characteristic" must be a state (potential form, adjective).So these lower/upper/negative/positive connotations with には/では/にも/でも only exist in potential structures?
Those sentences are both valid. It's considered that に(or で) is disappeared behind は/も. には/にも emphasizes the meaning, as I wrote ("too/also" vs. "even", for instance).And a standalone は/も doesn't have this connotation in these situations? F.E.
この味は、使用人はだせない。
この味は、使用人もだせる。
A bit confused regarding this part. Doesn't a standalone は express the characteristic of the topic as well? It also has a emphasis/contrast function.
That's a structure for comparison, and に indicates the standard(基準). The "characteristic" must be a state (potential form, adjective).
It's considered that に(or で) is disappeared behind は/も
1. あの人 is going to refer back to someone already mentioned
2. The speaker obviously admires Oikawa's coaching ability. You wouldn't normally expect to hear someone refer to a person they admire as 奴.
この味は、使用人には/ではだせない。
あの山は、初心者には/では登れない。
この味は、主人には/ならだせる。
あの山は、経験者には/なら登れる。
この味は、使用人はだせない。 can be considered also as an inversion of 使用人はこの味はだせない。, whose word order is inverted to emphasize この味. In this interpretation, 使用人 is the subject and に is not behind は. In fact, この味は、使用人はだした。 is valid, unlike この味は、使用人にはだした。. には clearly states the function of "standard". That's the cause of the difference in nuance, imo.Wasn't aware of the this either. I simply thought that には provides more emphasis than は in these situations. But evidently they both carry out the same function. Since は, in these spots, is just an abbreviation of には?
The third one この味は、主人ではだせる。 is not valid, since この味は、主人でだせる。 is invalid. でも is treated as a compound word, meaning "even". なら is as well.Also, I noticed you used なら in your previous examples - do all of these have the same nuance:
この味は、主人にはだせる。
この味は、主人ならだせる。
この味は、主人ではだせる。
この味は、主人だとだせる。
?
この味は、使用人はだせない。 can be considered also as an inversion of 使用人はこの味はだせない。, whose word order is inverted to emphasize この味. In this interpretation, 使用人 is the subject and に is not behind は. In fact, この味は、使用人はだした。 is valid, unlike この味は、使用人にはだした。. には clearly states the function of "standard". That's the cause of the difference in nuance, imo.
The third one この味は、主人ではだせる。 is not valid, since この味は、主人でだせる。 is invalid. でも is treated as a compound word, meaning "even". なら is as well.
Yes, だす means "to serve", not "to make/create", in that sentence.Gotcha. Yeah, the "この味は、使用人にはだした" is quite obvious since it's not "a state". But it's grammatically valid, right? It's just that the meaning is completely different? に indicates recipient here. F.E. 「この味は、(主人が)使用人にはだしたが、お客にはださなかった。主人はよっぽど使用人を大切にしてるようだ」
Both 雨では and 彼では work as a conditional clause, whereas 主人 is associated with だせる in この味は、主人ではだせる。. That's the difference.Didn't know this. So every spot where で can't be used I can't use では as well?? I always considered では to be a compound phrase indicating contrast, closely resembling だと, and not で+は. The dictionary entry also uses だと to illustrate the usage.
なら can be used also for negative (sorry if it's confusing).By the way I don't know if you noticed, but I couldn't edit the post that you replied to and posted another one regarding なら/では (#12, just above your last post) I wonder if you could help me clear that up.
Both 雨では and 彼では work as a conditional clause, whereas 主人 is associated with だせる in この味は、主人ではだせる。. That's the difference.
なら can be used also for negative (sorry if it's confusing).
The main clause must be a negative thing after the conditional ~ては
Yes.So this では is the same as ては from ~てはならない/~てはいけない?
Those are the same. 断定の助動詞「だ」の連用形 is the same as "the -te form of copula", and "連用形 of verbs + 接続助詞「て」" is the same as "the -te form of verbs". The term "-te form" is not used in 国文法/学校文法, therefore the dictionary uses another wording.But according to goo one is 《断定の助動詞「だ」の連用形+係助詞「は」》 and the other is [連語]《接続助詞「て」+係助詞「は」。上に付く語によっては「では」とも》
Although では's 4th usage points to the ては definition... But #1 and #4 are different usages? Eventhough both are conditionals?
Yes.
Those are the same. 断定の助動詞「だ」の連用形 is the same as "the -te form of copula", and "連用形 of verbs + 接続助詞「て」" is the same as "the -te form of verbs". The term "-te form" is not used in 国文法/学校文法, therefore the dictionary uses another wording.