What do you think is the reason for the Japanese economy??

celtician · 25 Oct 2005

Forget those massive 'old family' "Keidanran/Amukudari" businesses like Mitsubishi (now Shitzubishishi great cars!!!) Sumitomo, Snow Brand Whatever....
In Japan the sex industry in THE biggest money spinner in J-land how else can all those sex-workers afford those Louis Vuitton bags????

What do you think?

GaijinPunch · 26 Oct 2005

Isn't the sex industry the biggest in every country? Well... aside from ones where they castrate those that are patrons of said industry.

Maciamo · 26 Oct 2005

GaijinPunch said:
Isn't the sex industry the biggest in every country?

Er.. not really. In most European countries, "paying for sex" is still taboo (contrarily to Japan), and apart from a few brothels in a few tiny areas of big cities, it's virtually inexistent (or completely hidden). In Japan, you can find soapland and "special massage parlours" around any big station, and nobody raise an eyebrow. Strip bars are apparently common in big US cities, but apart from a few in Paris and London, I haven't really seen any in Europe (and it's certainly not the kind of place to which you go with your friends or to entertain a client, like I see in Hollywood movies or TV series).

As for porn, it may be also developed in the West, but to no extent like in Japan. Enter a combini and half of the magazines contain porn. In quite a few Western countries, porno magazines are usually sold in special 18-only shops. In others, they are sold more openly at the news agents, but only make up less than 10% of all the magazines, contrarily to about 50% in Japanese combini (porn manga included).

Add to this the "love hotels", which are also part of the sex industry, and exist almost only in Japan (well, there are motels in the States, but in Europe, it's rather unusual to go to a hotel only to have sex, except for extramarital affairs).

Then we could add the hostess bars and "snack", which aren't exactly "sex industry" but closely related. They are everywhere in Japan, and I had never heard of such things in Europe.

GaijinPunch · 27 Oct 2005

Er.. not really. In most European countries, "paying for sex" is still taboo (contrarily to Japan),

It is taboo in Japan as well. It's just easier to find.

Maciamo · 27 Oct 2005

GaijinPunch said:
It is taboo in Japan as well. It's just easier to find.

My impression was that the Japanese spoke much more freely about sex, didn't care about nudity (e.g. in onsen), had sex more easily, and prostituted themselves more easily (e.g. teen "compensated dating" to buy brand clothes) than in Europe. What's more the sex industry is much more visible too, and they do not try much to hide it.

Soaplands, strip clubs, etc. in places like Kabukicho in Shinjuku, Roppongi, Ikebukuro, Susukino in Sapporo, or Nakasu in Fukuoka (or hundreds of other districts) even have touts in the streets to lure customers in. Around my shitamachi (temple area) district or business district like Nihombashi, Thai or Chinese girls come up to men walking alone from about 9pm and ask them if they want "massages". It's in fact hard to find any place in Tokyo (except suburban residential areas maybe) that doesn't have its sex workers. I had never seen anything like that in Europe. It's more like Bangkok than anywhere else I've been too. The difference with Bangkok is that Japan has enjo kosai (teenage prostitution), plenty of porn magazines in the country's 50,000 or so convenience stores, and plenty of AV in ordinary video shops.

celtician · 27 Oct 2005

Let's not mince words about this wonderful topic Japan IS an Asian country and the leaders exploit their own massive population. I has always been like that a form of inner slavery but the Japanese accept that no moral issue at all.

senseiman · 28 Oct 2005

Yeah, the sex industry in Japan is a relatively big one but its still a very small part of the overall economy.

It also depends on how you define 'sex industry'. Most hostess bars in Japanese entertainment districts employ women whose only job is to chat, look good and pour drinks. No nudity or sexual acts involved. Does that count as part of the sex industry? Strip clubs and call girl type businesses are easy to define as part of the sex industry, but other areas I'm not sure on.

I'm not sure about the pervasiveness of porn either. The 'porn' magazines and videos they sell at conbini look pretty "soft core" , along the lines of the type of magazines you could buy at similar shops in North America. One thing I do notice is that stores that specialize in pornography are way more common in Japan. They aren't always easy to differentiate from regular video shops either, I remember my wife and I when we moved into a new neighborhood having to go to 2 or 3 purported 'video rental shops' before we found one that actually had regular movies for rent and not just wall to wall porn.

Maciamo · 28 Oct 2005

Soft core or hard core, anything that produce money because of its association to sex is part of the sex industry.

senseiman · 28 Oct 2005

Maciamo said:
Soft core or hard core, anything that produce money because of its association to sex is part of the sex industry.

I don't know if that is an adequate definition though. The beer industry employs lots of scantily clad models to promote its products and it probably makes money through the use of sex in that context, yet it wouldn't seem to make much sense to say that beer is part of the sex industry.

Its kind of a fuzzy line. Like in America there are lots of magazines like Maxim that put pictures of attractive women in bikinis on their cover, yet 90% of the content of it is completely unrelated to sex.

GaijinPunch · 28 Oct 2005

It's a definition. Perhaps not right or wrong. I've never studied any statistics on it, but I'm sure you'd be surprised on how big the sex industry is in other countries... even the US which is considered the bible belt by some.

Strip clubs and whatnot are just as in the open in most western states. It's a given that anything with "touching" involved (in the states anyway) is a bit more hidden, but there. Don't be fooled though... it's not called "the worlds oldest profession" for nothing. Every city has it.

Silverpoint · 29 Oct 2005

There's been an explosion of strip bars in the UK in recent years.

Maciamo said:
porno magazines are usually sold in special 18-only shops. In others, they are sold more openly at the news agents, but only make up less than 10% of all the magazines, contrarily to about 50% in Japanese combini (porn manga included).

While I don't dispute that Japan has a very well established sex industry, I would like to know where you got this statistic. In my opinion, 50% is a gross exaggeration.

Maciamo · 29 Oct 2005

senseiman said:
I don't know if that is an adequate definition though. The beer industry employs lots of scantily clad models to promote its products and it probably makes money through the use of sex in that context, yet it wouldn't seem to make much sense to say that beer is part of the sex industry.

Its kind of a fuzzy line. Like in America there are lots of magazines like Maxim that put pictures of attractive women in bikinis on their cover, yet 90% of the content of it is completely unrelated to sex.

The examples you gave are a way of advertsing a product, not the product itself. Porn magazines are the product itself.

Glenn · 29 Oct 2005

GaijinPunch said:
...even the US which is considered the bible belt by some.

You mean some people consider the entire US a bible belt?

Maciamo · 29 Oct 2005

Silverpoint said:
While I don't dispute that Japan has a very well established sex industry, I would like to know where you got this statistic. In my opinion, 50% is a gross exaggeration.

I went to a combini and counted. Of course, some combinis have more porn than others (even within the same company) depending on the location. I admit that 50% is not representative of all the magazines on the Japanese market, as most magazines are only available in bookshops (like Maruzen, Kinokuniya or smaller ones). The combinis sell only the most popular ones, which gives an idea of the popularity of porn in Japan.

When I say 50% (roughly, could be 40 to 60% depending on the combini*), I counted all the magazines that contained porn, even if that is just a few pictures in the whole magazine. Weekly Magazines like Shukan Friday. Shukan Taishu, Shukan Gendai, etc. almost all have porn, although that is not the only or main thing they contain. True porn (or "erotic") magazines are the like of Playboy, Sabra, Gals or dozens of others. Add to that tens of hentai manga magazines and books, and we reach about half of all the publications available in a combini. The other half is mostly women's magazines (fashion...) or city, TV and restaurant guides (TokyoWalker, etc.).

The last time I went to England (in May), I was surprised to see that there were also lots of porn magazines in supermarkets. Britain may now have the highest percentage of porn in Europe (a big chance from Victorian prudery).

*NB : This estimation is based on the combini in my area of Tokyo, mostly AmPm, FamilyMart and SunKus.

Silverpoint · 29 Oct 2005

Maciamo said:
I went to a combini and counted. Of course, some combinis have more porn than others (even within the same company) depending on the location.

So to summarize, you made a sweeping statement which wasn't true.

Maciamo · 29 Oct 2005

Silverpoint said:
So to summarize, you made a sweeping statement which wasn't true.

It is true in most cases, but I never said it that my percentage was perfectly accurate, and you'd be a fool to think it's exactly 50% or that all combinis have the exact same variety of magazines.

senseiman · 30 Oct 2005

50% sounds about right from my recollection, but I wonder how much of that is actual 'porn' and how much is just regular magazines (ie sports magazines) that put women in bikinis on the cover just to sell more.

Sounds like this would make a fun research project, LOL. Too bad I'm not in Japan anymore!

bossel · 30 Oct 2005

Maciamo said:
The last time I went to England (in May), I was surprised to see that there were also lots of porn magazines in supermarkets.

That one got me thinking. What is porn actually? So I looked at M-W:
"1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction"

But what is erotic? M-W:
"1 : of, devoted to, or tending to arouse sexual love or desire <erotic art>
2 : strongly marked or affected by sexual desire"
:?

It seems that with these definitions, marketing with scarcely dressed girls (or in some cases, boys) can be called porn. Personally, I would define porn only as "depiction of sexual intercourse". Using my own definition, I suppose, what you found in the English supermarkets isn't really porn. Probably there are some naked girls somewhere, but to call mere nudity porn goes a bit far, IMO.

IIRC, I read somewhere that the sex industry (now don't ask me for a definition) in Japan covers pretty much 1% of the GDP. Not a particularly small share, but surely it isn't the biggest "industry."

Maciamo · 30 Oct 2005

bossel said:
That one got me thinking. What is porn actually?
...
Personally, I would define porn only as "depiction of sexual intercourse". Using my own definition, I suppose, what you found in the English supermarkets isn't really porn. Probably there are some naked girls somewhere, but to call mere nudity porn goes a bit far, IMO.

I don't think any Japanese magazines have sexual intercourse in them (except the manga). What I call porn magazine is actually more "erotic", i.e. depictions of nude girls in sexy poses. Maybe one of our British members can confirm whether it is the same of not in Britain. Celtician, Silverpoint ?

Sensuikan San · 30 Oct 2005

Glenn said:
You mean some people consider the entire US a bible belt?

I must confess I've frequently held the view that - with the exception of one or two cities - that is the case ...if you're more than fifty miles inland from either coast.

On the other hand ... I once bumped into one of the raunchiest strip bars I've ever seen ... in Des Moines ! (On reflection, I think the row of Harley Davidson "Choppers" outside should have given me a clue ... but ... )

'Twas a damned good evening !

ﾆ淡ﾆ停?｡ﾆ停?

GaijinPunch · 30 Oct 2005

Glenn:

I think from the outside, all America is considered VERY conservative. The whole nation freaks out at one nipple slip on the TV, and... well, I'll leave it at that as to not derail the thread. From the inside, only certain parts (the Bush states, for lack of a simpler term) are considered the Bible Belt.

Everyone else: 50%? Either you peopl are extremely high, or my combini's didn't carry enough porn. I'm not saying it's not clearly visible, but there are an astonishing amount of magazines in Japan... porn and non alike. I give it 25% in the combinis, < 10% in a proper book store.

ragedaddy · 31 Oct 2005

Are we talking about 50% being Porno Mag sales in conbinis or consisting of the whole sex industry? If we are talking about just the mag/manga sales then we are at least looking at conbinis providing 50% of the sales. Let's not forget the newstands in train stations, as well as the homeless dumpster diving we will hook you up with porn for hyaku en service. The sex industry also includes AVs as well as toys (Not to mention girls), so I can't say that conbinis consist of 50% of the whole sex sector.

GaijinPunch · 31 Oct 2005

I think the claim was that 50% of magazines in conbini's were of the porn variety.

Maciamo · 31 Oct 2005

GaijinPunch said:
I think the claim was that 50% of magazines in conbini's were of the porn variety.

What I said was that about 50% of the mags contained porn (or erotic pictures). I gave the examples of the weekly magazines (Shukan "something"), which are not porn magazines per se but generally have a few pages of porn in them. It's something I had never seen in the Western press. You don't expect to find porn pages (with real porn stars, not scandal pictures) in Newsweek or Time magazine, do you ? Magazines that contain only porn make up maybe only 30%, because even Playboy is not just porn.

Carlson · 31 Oct 2005

lol i love the newspapers...

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