Help with this sentence

[Narktor]

Thanks
Yes, of course I read your response to my question about the conditional form!
It's been quite a lot but it helped ^^ although I was a bit confused about what you mean't with "hope".
Was it in reference to the -tai form? I learned that this form expresses a desire/wish, but hope of course is very close to these concepts so I guess one can call it this as well ^^

I don't really understand the concept of volition yet. I know transitive and intransitive, and in this context also semantic roles like agent and patient (I hope these terms are correct, I only know the terms as agens, patiens, nomen acti, nomen actionis etc.. These are the terms used in german linguistic literature).
Because of that, this kind of went over my head ^^ But overall, your response still was helpful because it introduced me to some new concepts in the context of the conditional clause
I must admit I didn't read through the threads yet ^^ When I encounter another problem of that sort, I will take a look at them

 

[Toritoribe]

Ah, yes, I was talking about ～たい form, and "desire/wish" is more appropriate than "hope". Sorry for that.

A verb that expresses an action the subject does with their will is volitional. On the other hand, when the subject doesn't have their will, for instance inanimate things, the verb is non-volitional.
e.g.
彼は噂[うわさ]を広[ひろ]めた。
he spread a rumor.
噂が広まった。
A rumor spread.

In a transitive-intransitive pair verb, just like 広める-広まる above, most transitive verbs are volitional, and most intransitive verbs are non-volitional, but exceptions exist.

 

[Narktor]

Thanks
Yeah I already read about the theory behind it, but it's still somehow intransparent for me xD But I guess I'll figure it out the more I learn about it

jao.pdf - DocDroid
I have problems with おいといて
"おいと" would be a form of "okimasu" I cant make sense of, same as "といて" would be a verbform I cant make sense of since I dont even know a hypothetical "tokimasu" yet.
I could imagine this being a contraction of "おいて おいて" which would then make the first one the te-form of "okimasu = to put" and the second the te-form of "okimasu" with the syntactical function to make the aforementioned verb a necessity, like in "はさみ を つかったとき もとの ところに もどして おいて ください" -> "After using the scissors, put them back please."

However, the three uses I've learnt by now don't seem sufficient to me to justify this use here:
1) You do a necessary action until a certain point in time
2) For the next use, you perform a necessary action (like in my example above)
3) A state is left as it is.

However, I cant make sense of the wordform anyway, so Im just guessing here ^^ But if I'm right, I must say the text is pretty harsh concerning its difficulty, since such phonetic contractions were never mentioned in the grammar before and there is also no footnote for the reader, so I really need someone to explain it to me now or at least someone who tells me that I'm right or wrong in my assumptions ^^

Thanks in advance

 

[Mike Cash]

I could imagine this being a contraction of "おいて おいて

It is.

 

[Toritoribe]

No, I haven't learnt about the concept of transitive-intransitive verb pairs yet

I know transitive and intransitive

I don't really understand the concept of volition yet.

I already read about the theory behind it

First, you should give us the correct information you learned so far, so that we can avoid posting what you already know.
Second, you should throw off your habit to use polite forms instead of dictionary forms.

As for the function of ～ておく there, it's #3, leave it as the state (putting 回覧板 there).

 

[Narktor]

First, you should give us the correct information you learned so far, so that we can avoid posting what you already know.
Second, you should throw off your habit to use polite forms instead of dictionary forms.

As for the function of ～ておく there, it's #3, leave it as the state (putting 回覧板 there).

I think there is a misunderstanding
I know what transitive and intransitive means, but I don't know what you mean by the concept of "transitive and intransitive _verb pairs_". There are transitive verbs, verbs that are made intransitive by syntactical means, and intransitive verbs which are intransitive by default (like "to swim" I think? The verb can't reign a direct object so I guess it is intransitive).

And about the concept of volition, I read about it AFTER you first mentioned it in this thread ^^ But as I said, it is still intransparent to me. First, there are multiple approaches to determine wether a verb is volitional or not (semantical, syntactical, mixed) and second, I just don't get it ^^ The semantical approach for example states that a verb must express something thats done by a living thing and out of volition...but heck, that's somehow a very context-sensitive aspect and I don't feel competent enough to claim that I can safely apply it...^^

Yeah I'll try to drop the habit, although its hard since my book teaches the verbs in the polite form...^^

 

[Mike Cash]

I don't know what you mean by the concept of "transitive and intransitive _verb pairs_

Japanese Verbs - Transitive and Intransitive Pairs

 

[Narktor]

IMG_20160504_0003_NEW.pdf - DocDroid

Its in the second line, the sentence after the first star.
Translated in a very word-by-word fashion, it sounds like this to me:
"The man wants to want to get to know the kanji"
I never had this case before, where the same desire is expressed two times in a row.
both "-tai" and the "...to omotte" form signal the speakers will to do whats expressed in the respective verb.
I usually just would ignore this doublette and interprete it as "The man wants to learn/get to know the kanji". But I just want to make sure that this is indeed the case, and not just me doing it wrong ^^

 

[Narktor]

IMG_20160504_0003_NEW.pdf - DocDroid

Its in the second line, the sentence after the first star.
Translated in a very word-by-word fashion, it sounds like this to me:
"The man wants to want to get to know the kanji"
I never had this case before, where the same desire is expressed two times in a row.
both "-tai" and the "...to omotte" form signal the speakers will to do whats expressed in the respective verb.
I usually just would ignore this doublette and interprete it as "The man wants to learn/get to know the kanji". But I just want to make sure that this is indeed the case, and not just me doing it wrong ^^

I just figured it out myself^^
..."to omotte imasu" doesnt express an intention here because there is no intentional verbform in the precursor verbal phrase.
therefore, it should translate like this:
"The man thinks/believes that he wants to learn/get to know the kanji"

Although Im still kind of confused because I learned that "youni naru" signals the change of a status. This impersonal connotation conflicts with the desiring semantics of "-tai" in my opinion, although not severely. Its just that I still feel a bit unsure about it ^^

 

[Narktor]

Another problem:
IMG_20160505_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid

Its in exercise 7, textbox line 2.
There is a combination of "-shi" and "verb in -te" form.
Both are used to chain multiple expressions.
However, I've learnt that the expressions chained through "-shi" all refer to qualities of the same kind, like for example:
"この レストランでは おいしいし やすいし りおうりが たべられるので よく しょくじに くる."
"Because you can have tasty, cheap meals in this restaurant, I often come here to eat."
So "-shi" signals here that both of the expressed aspects are of the same quality (here: positive) and that both of them are the reason for whats expressed afterwards (=going there often to have meal/to eat).

I have learnt just now that "-te form/de" can also express a cause, but is used in this function only when the result expresses a status. The result mustn't contain a verbal expression that has something to do with a persons will or intentions.

In this sentence, the combination of "-shi" and "-te form" seems to work.
The sentence would translate like this in my opinion:
"But, since wearing a kimono is difficult and time consuming, it is arduous."
So, while "-shi" isn't restricted to expressing a cause, it still can be combined with "-te form" in this function IF the result then fits the grammatical limitations introduced through the use of "-te form" in such a context?

In the same textbox, line 5.
Its the "mo" particle at the end of the line, right after "seikatsu".
since the accompanying verb is transitive, I think "mo" substitutes "を" here?
Then it would translate: "furthermore, because one was making the all-day-life of the japanese more western,..."

Then there's another BIG problem, in the same sentence. Right after the translated phrase concludes with "...ので" there comes a construction I can't make ANY sense of.
The combination and succession of "yori" and "houga" is foreign to me.
Both were introduced very early in my book, in chapter 12 (Im in 39 now).
But they were only introduced in set phrases and separate from each other.
Here are the two constructions I've learnt so far:
Yori: "この くるまは あの くるまより おおきい です。"
Houga: "ほっかいどと おおさかと どちが すずしですか
ほっかいどの ほうが すずしい です"

I'll just translate the sentence now according to how I understand the use of houga and yori now:
"Furthermore, since one made the all-day-life of the japanese more western, one found/met western clothing more frequently than kimono(s) in daily life."
But thats really just guessing...^^

 

[Toritoribe]

What do you think the difference between わかるようになる and わかる is? Your translation "to want to learn/get to know" is for just わかりたい, isn't it?

りょうり, not りおうり
し can be used only for adjectives/verbs/copula as a predicative. Both おいしい and やすい are an attributive modifying 料理[りょうり], therefore おいしいし料理 and 安[やす]いし料理 are both ungrammatical. You need to use the -te form of -ku form of adjectives in that case instead of し, as in おいしくて安い料理 or おいしく、安い料理. In conclusion, the -te form expresses the reason/cause and し connects the two clauses in that sentence, as in your last interpretation.

ほっかいどうとおおさかとどっちがすずしいですか。
ほっかいどうのほうがすずしいです。
西洋化する is intransitive there.
The verb is 合う, not 会う. The readings are the same, but the meanings are different, as same as 始めて vs. 初めて.
There is no problem to use ほうが and より in a single sentence.
e.g.
この車[くるま]のほうがあの車より大[おお]きいです。
北海道[ほっかいどう]のほうが大阪[おおさか]より涼[すず]しいです。

 

[Narktor]

thanks
So using "houga" and "yori" in a single sentence is okay. Was my interpretation of this use (see above translation) correct then?^^

 

[Toritoribe]

Not really. I already pointed out your mistakes.

西洋化する is intransitive there.
The verb is 合う, not 会う.

 

[Narktor]

Ah, now I see it. The verb appears with this meaning in chapter 40, and since Im still in 39 I didnt know this meaning yet.

So, does it mean this?
"furthermore, because one was making the all-day-life of the japanese more western, western clothing fits all-day situations better than a kimono."

EDIT:
The problem is that I dont really know how to make the "seikatsusuru" intransitive.
I only learned a transitive meaning for it.
Maybe "because the japanese all-day life has become more western"?

 

[Toritoribe]

It's 西洋化する seiyōka suru, not 生活する seikatsu suru.
～より…の方が is used only in the last half of the sentence. There is no "more" meaning in the first half.

And you missed this, too?

What do you think the difference between わかるようになる and わかる is? Your translation "to want to learn/get to know" is for just わかりたい, isn't it?

 

[Narktor]

I just struggled with my english vocabulary there^^
"...because the japanese all-day life has become western" (or "has been westernized" although thats somehow passiv-transitive or whatever..."to become X" seems more clearly intransitive to me than any passive construction^^)

"wakaruyouni naru" means that one has shifted from a state of not knowing to a state of knowing?
As I said, I've learned that "ru-form youni naru" expresses a change of state. So thats all I can think of.
"Wakaru" is just a plain statement "I know" (or whichever person or entity talks/is being talked about).

since "-tai" expresses a desire, I don't know how else I should translate it. It is said that this person wants to learn the kanji (=wants to shift from a state of not knowing the kanji to a state of knowing the kanji).

 

[Toritoribe]

If you understand that 西洋化する is intransitive correctly, there is no problem to use the passive form of a transitive verb "to have been westernized"in the English translation. The point is it's not "someone made Japanese lifestyle more western". The agent doesn't exist (or isn't mentioned) in the sentence.

The man wants to come to understand kanji , for instance.

 

[Narktor]

The man wants to come to understand kanji , for instance.

Hm, okay. But what happened to the " -to omotte imasu"?
"simple form + to omotte imasu" translates into "to think/believe that..." following my grammar.
Only "intentional form + to omotto imasu" translates into an intentional expression according to my grammar so gar.
Apart from that, if we decide to keep "-to omotte imasu" out of the translation, I don't see the difference between "The man wants to learn to learn/get to know the kanji" and "The man wants to come to understand the kanji".

 

[Mike Cash]

Apart from that, if we decide to keep "-to omotte imasu" out of the translation, I don't see the difference between "The man wants to learn to learn/get to know the kanji" and "The man wants to come to understand the kanji".

It very frequently can be left out of the translation.

 

[Toritoribe]

～たいと思っています is a structure to express the subject's wish, as same as ～ようと思っています expresses the subject's will. "He wants to do" corresponds to it in English, as same as "He is going to do" is used instead of a literal translation "He thinks that he intends to do".

As you wrote, ～ようになる expresses "change of state". "To come to understand" is a change of state, but "to learn" is just an action. Furthermore, while "to want to learn (勉強したい)" is usually used when you don't start to learn yet, "to want to come to understand" can be used after starting learning. Just like this example, you can think of many situations where "to want to learn" and "to want to come to understand" have different meanings/functions, can't you? That's exactly the reason why わかるようになりたい is used there instead of 勉強したい.

 

[Narktor]

Thanks!

Since I've learnt recently how one nominalizes a verbal phrase with "-no", I'm trying to combine use this with as many phrases and constructions as possible ^^
I wondered wether this would be possible or not:
"さとう-さんが せんたくするのに きが ついた"
"I mentioned that Sato-san was doing the wash up"

I've learnt quite a few phrases with -no as an instrument for nominalization, like "oyogunoha skidesu" and so on, but it was never combined with the -ni particle, and since I've learnt the phrase "わすれものに きが つきます" -> "to notice that one has forgotten something", I wondered wether this particular phrase could be combined with a phrase nominalized with -no or not ^^

 

[Toritoribe]

"さとう-さんが せんたくするのに きが ついた"
"I mentioned that Sato-san was doing the wash up"

You mean "noticed", not "mentioned", right?

わすれものに きが つきます

That's 忘れ物, i.e., "わすれ + もの", not "わすれも + の". There is no conjugation form such like わすれも.
As for "nominalizer の + particle に", so many examples exist.
e.g.
財布[さいふ]を忘[わす]れたのに気[き]が付[つ]いた。
本[ほん]を読[よ]むのに飽[あ]きた。
仕事[しごと]をするのにパソコンが必要[ひつよう]だ。

 

[Narktor]

Yes I meant "noticed" ^^
Thanks!

 

[Toritoribe]

洗濯[せんたく]しているのに気が付いた is more appropriate when he was washing (past progressive).

 

[Narktor]

IMG_20160511_0001_NEW.pdf - DocDroid

chapter 40, exercise 2, sentence 3.
I've no problem in solving the exercise, but I have a problem with understanding the sentence, which is why I've posted a page from the appendix with the full solutions where the whole sentence is printed.
Still, here is the page from the main book, so you have the context of the whole task:
sadasd.pdf - DocDroid

I can't make sense of the "doushitara".
I only know "ta-form + ra" as a marker for a conditional clause.
So this would be "dou + suru in ta-form with -ra suffix". I don't know a word "doushitara" like "doushite" which means "why".
So I would have to translate "when how you do,..." or something along these lines because I have to assume "dou" to be used in the sense of "how"...
But as I said I can't make any sense of it ^^
intuitively, I'd say that it means: "I'm researching how one can make tasty sweet water."
But that's just guessing and I don't know "how to get there" so to say...^^