Sentence Check

[RTRC85]

Here is my sentence:
今日、私は早く走らないばならないから最初が仕上がり
I want to say "Today, I must run quickly to finish first"
To say "I must" in this sentence I used the negative + ば + ならない (since this only applies to one person) Is that right?

Also, is が and は used correctly?

Thanks!

 

[Mike Cash]

Are you using a text injustice looking stuff up in a dictionary?

 

[RTRC85]

Are you using a text injustice looking stuff up in a dictionary?

Not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Mike Cash]

Not sure what you mean by that.

Auto-correct error. Should be "or just"

 

[Toritoribe]

Where did you get "the negative + ば + ならない" means "must"?

 

[RTRC85]

Auto-correct error. Should be "or just"

Well, I googled for most of the phrases and verbs and applied (what I thought was) the right conjugations.

Where did you get "the negative + ば + ならない" means "must"?

Expressing "must" or "have to" | Learn Japanese
Forgive me for using such informal tools to learn Japanese... My resources are rather limited at the moment.

 

[Toritoribe]

Look more carefully the explanation and examples in the site. Tae Kim said "Negative verb + 「ば」 conditional + だめ／いけない／ならない". He is correct, you misread it.

 

[RTRC85]

Look more carefully the explanation and examples in the site. Tae Kim said "Negative verb + 「ば」 conditional + だめ／いけない／ならない". He is correct, you misread it.

I'm not doubting the credibility of the information. I'm confused as to which method to use and whether to use だめ／いけない／ならない.

 

[Toritoribe]

You can use either methods and either of those three words, but you need to CONJUGATE 走らない in either way, as the site says.

 

[RTRC85]

You can use either methods and either of those three words, but you need to CONJUGATE 走らない in either way, as the site says.

I thought that was the conjugated verb. Isn't 走らない the negative version of 走る?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yes, and 走らない also conjugates as an i-adjective. Haven't you ever learned this rudimentary fact yet? Just one more thing, have you ever seen the forms something like ～ないばだめ／いけない／ならない or ～ないてだめ／いけない／ならない in the site you are referring to?

 

[RTRC85]

Yes, and 走らない also conjugates as an i-adjective. Haven't you ever learned this rudimentary fact yet? Just one more thing, have you ever seen the forms something like ～ないばだめ／いけない／ならない or ～ないてだめ／いけない／ならない in the site you are referring to?

Well that makes so much sense now. Thanks! I'm trying to teach myself which is proving to be a bit difficult right now so thank you for bearing with me. I have seen some of those forms.

But isn't 走らない already conjugated for the present positive then?

 

[Mike Cash]

Well that makes so much sense now. Thanks! I'm trying to teach myself which is proving to be a bit difficult right now so thank you for bearing with me. I have seen some of those forms.

Have you checked for used textbooks from Amazon? The Genki series can be had used for very reasonable prices. Unscrupulous people sometimes even post pdf files of it online.

 

[Toritoribe]

I have seen some of those forms.

Probably you misunderstood me. I pointed out ないばだめ／いけない／ならない is wrong. You never see it anywhere. Again, please read more carefully the explanation in the site.

Note that since the verb is always negative, for the 「ば」 conditional, we will always be removing the last 「い」 and adding 「ければ」.

1. 毎日学校に行かなければいけません。
   Must go to school everyday.
2. 宿題をしなければだめだった。
   Had to do homework.

 

[RTRC85]

Probably you misunderstood me. I pointed out ないばだめ／いけない／ならない is wrong. You never see it anywhere. Again, please read more carefully the explanation in the site.

Thank you for the clarification

So, then one correct way to write 'must run' is 走らなばならない?

 

[RTRC85]

Have you checked for used textbooks from Amazon? The Genki series can be had used for very reasonable prices. Unscrupulous people sometimes even post pdf files of it online.

Whether I use online blogs or textbooks, I am sure I will run into these problems. When learning certain parts of Japanese, I often need clarification to help me better understand the material. In a classroom, for instance, kids can not learn straight out of the textbook. They often need a teacher to answer their questions and/or provide assistance in understanding what is written in the textbook. I am the same way. That is why I came here to see if anybody could assist me on my journey to understanding Japanese and I am very grateful for everybody that has posted here so far.

 

[Mike Cash]

Did you at least start at the beginning of Tae Kim and work through it? Unfortunately, it has not done a good job of imparting its information to you. You should give serious thought to a textbook and associated workbook and drill materials.

 

[Toritoribe]

So, then one correct way to write 'must run' is 走らなばならない?

Again and again, you need to read MORE CAREFULLY the explanation.

we will always be removing the last 「い」 and adding 「ければ」.

1. 毎日学校に行かなければいけません。
   Must go to school everyday.
2. 宿題をしなければだめだった。
   Had to do homework.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Again and again, you need to read MORE CAREFULLY the explanation.

Totally irrelevant, but the English here should be 'you need to read the explanation more carefully'.
(I'm not sure why... you can say 'I need to run quickly to the store' or 'I need to run to the store quickly', but it's always 'read the explanation carefully' and never 'read carefully the explanation'. That last phrase feel harshly unnatural even though the parts of speech are the same as the run to the store example. Maybe someone knows why. Perhaps it has to do with there being only word position and no prepositions involved.)

To the OP, you should commit the なければならない to memory as a phrase meaning 'must'. It is in fact a standard negative-conditional conjugation followed by a negative conjugation, and many similar patterns share the same meaning (Japanese is full of double negatives!) However that particular phrase is a very standard one, and if you know it by heart you also will be familiar with the conjugations used to build it.

That said, I feel that the whole topic has diverged from the original question. You wouldn't use a generic
'must' (なければならない・なければいけない・などなど) to translate a -conditional must- from English.
I don't think you can use 仕上がり for finishing a race either, but I'm not quite sure about that. If you did, I'm don't think that 最初 would the right meaning of first. Maybe in the right sentence it could be used for finish a race first. But I think you were looking more for a meaning like 一位. Always be sure to check unknown words in a dictionary with examples - you can use EDICT dictionaries (jisho.org / wwwjdic / the 'kotoba' cell phone app / the rikai-chan browser app, , etc. etc., although I prefer Yahoo!辞書 - 国語・英和・和英および専門辞書の検索サービス However, you mustn't rely on the basic gloss from those dictionaries but check the example sentences included in those apps, or example sentences from tatoeba.org / 英語学習・TOEIC対策・英辞郎 on the WEB | アルク , or other such sentence databases. A good example sentence is worth ten paragraphs of definition.)

Anyway, on the original proposal, I'd suggest that you you would use something like '早く走らなければ勝利しない'. (If I don't run quickly I won't win -> I must run quickly to win). Of course I am only a student of the language myself and may be mistaken here. If my sentence is in error hopefully someone will correct it, but a point that I do have confidence in is that this pattern is common in translation - that is, the English 'I must A in order to B' becomes a double negative in Japanese 'AしなければBない'.

 

[Toritoribe]

Ooops, my bad! Yeah, I myself don't know why I wrote it in that word order...

 

[Mike Cash]

Ooops, my bad! Yeah, I myself don't know why I wrote it in that word order...

I don't see anything wrong with it. Either phrasing is grammatically equivalent, although in modern colloquial usage the one Chris pointed out would be more common.

As for the 最初 and 仕上がり:

"First" is used adverbially and 最初 is used as a noun.

"Finish" is a verb and 仕上がり is a noun.

Those two were what made me think he was just looking things up and using whatever he saw instead of using things he had encountered in a lesson and learned how to use.

He also made the classic English speaking beginner's error with から, getting the phrases in the wrong order.

So what he ended up with....adjusting for conjugation errors...was something like, "Because I must run fast the beginning is the (quality or condition of the appearance of the) finish.

It is such a bundle of misunderstood, improperly learned, and simply guessed at bits that the solution is to GET A PEDAGOGICALLY SOUND TEXTBOOK, start with Lesson One, and work through the basics in a sensible manner, doing plenty of drills along the way.

 

[WonkoTheSane]

Totally irrelevant, but the English here should be 'you need to read the explanation more carefully'.
(I'm not sure why... you can say 'I need to run quickly to the store' or 'I need to run to the store quickly', but it's always 'read the explanation carefully' and never 'read carefully the explanation'. That last phrase feel harshly unnatural even though the parts of speech are the same as the run to the store example. Maybe someone knows why. Perhaps it has to do with there being only word position and no prepositions involved.)

Actually, the store example is not the same, but we can still illustrate that 'more carefully' can (as Mike said, in a more modern way, not necessarily more grammatically correctly) be used with multiple positions:

You need to more carefully read the explanation.

You need to read the explanation more carefully.

It's the "read more carefully the" part which is clunky because "read the" is broken apart. With the store example we can break apart "run to" because "quickly run to the store" and "run quickly to the store" actually have different meanings which makes both individually useful. The first means the actual running needs to occur at a rapid rate, whereas the second means the overall trip to the store needs to be quick.

It's raining, so I need to run quickly to the store or I'll get soaked.

We have to leave for the airport soon but I have to quickly run to the store before we go.

You might notice that there is no reasonable way to break up "to the" in the same way as we can't break up "read the." This is where we start seeing equivalent rules in the sentences, not at the "run to" part. We can look at this further with "read up on the information" since "more carefully" can be inserted between 'up' and 'on' but not between 'on' and 'the' which more accurately mimics the original sentence with "more carefully."

You have to read up more carefully on the information.

I have to run quickly to the store.

At least that's my take on the subject.

 

[Mike Cash]

You need to more carefully read the explanation

Or, avoiding the split infinitive:

You need more carefully to read the explanation

 

[RTRC85]

Totally irrelevant, but the English here should be 'you need to read the explanation more carefully'.
(I'm not sure why... you can say 'I need to run quickly to the store' or 'I need to run to the store quickly', but it's always 'read the explanation carefully' and never 'read carefully the explanation'. That last phrase feel harshly unnatural even though the parts of speech are the same as the run to the store example. Maybe someone knows why. Perhaps it has to do with there being only word position and no prepositions involved.)

To the OP, you should commit the なければならない to memory as a phrase meaning 'must'. It is in fact a standard negative-conditional conjugation followed by a negative conjugation, and many similar patterns share the same meaning (Japanese is full of double negatives!) However that particular phrase is a very standard one, and if you know it by heart you also will be familiar with the conjugations used to build it.

That said, I feel that the whole topic has diverged from the original question. You wouldn't use a generic
'must' (なければならない・なければいけない・などなど) to translate a -conditional must- from English.
I don't think you can use 仕上がり for finishing a race either, but I'm not quite sure about that. If you did, I'm don't think that 最初 would the right meaning of first. Maybe in the right sentence it could be used for finish a race first. But I think you were looking more for a meaning like 一位. Always be sure to check unknown words in a dictionary with examples - you can use EDICT dictionaries (jisho.org / wwwjdic / the 'kotoba' cell phone app / the rikai-chan browser app, , etc. etc., although I prefer Yahoo!辞書 - 国語・英和・和英および専門辞書の検索サービス However, you mustn't rely on the basic gloss from those dictionaries but check the example sentences included in those apps, or example sentences from tatoeba.org / 英語学習・TOEIC対策・英辞郎 on the WEB | アルク , or other such sentence databases. A good example sentence is worth ten paragraphs of definition.)

Anyway, on the original proposal, I'd suggest that you you would use something like '早く走らなければ勝利しない'. (If I don't run quickly I won't win -> I must run quickly to win). Of course I am only a student of the language myself and may be mistaken here. If my sentence is in error hopefully someone will correct it, but a point that I do have confidence in is that this pattern is common in translation - that is, the English 'I must A in order to B' becomes a double negative in Japanese 'AしなければBない'.

Thank you for response. I appreciate it. I went back and looked at my notes and constructed this new sentence:

勝へ私は速く走らなければ

Which doesn't look a whole lot different than yours haha. Thank you again for clearing up some of the loose ends.

It is such a bundle of misunderstood, improperly learned, and simply guessed at bits that the solution is to GET A PEDAGOGICALLY SOUND TEXTBOOK, start with Lesson One, and work through the basics in a sensible manner, doing plenty of drills along the way.

My apologies for being curious how a certain phrase would be translated into English.

I made this thread asking for help to understand how to say 'must' in Japanese, as well as to check for errors of the sentence in general. If you don't want to post anything constructive toward that purpose, it's fine. You are not obligated to help me or anyone. But at the same time, it's rather uncalled for to flood this thread questioning and criticizing how I choose to learn Japanense. Especially when you're choosing to be such a blunt dick about it.

And for your information, I did buy a book called 'Human Japanese' in which I learned the raw basics of the language. However, the book was limited to just the basics. That's why I searched online to learn about advanced topics.

I'd prefer if you stayed away from posting in my threads.

 

[Mike Cash]

So you wanted your errors pointed out, but because I pointed our your errors I'm a dick.

Got it.