Israeli teens murdered

[Mark of Zorro]

Zorro, I am not responsible for how the CNN link displays in this thread. The link headline leads the video, which is surplus to my requirements - I only needed the story underneath. At any rate I pasted the link, and that is how the headline showed up. The article is what is important.

Now I know. Would have been nice to have had the distinction made earlier.

Anway, if you wish to find your jewish conspiracy in a CNN headline, be my guest.

Safe to say that whenever there is top secret concealed information, we get it decades down the line generally, if at all.

Even if the theory were 100 percent correct, the best I am going to get is what I still see: a bunch of odd answers, incomplete answers and the press reporting unsubstantiated information with a particular slant.

Saleh al-Aruri said it was members of al-Qassam's mujahedeen who did it. He called it a "blessed, heroic action".

Not much a quote. Got a better, fuller one? Wait, I do:

"The popular will was exercised throughout our occupied land, and culminated in the heroic operation by the Qassam Brigades in imprisoning the three settlers in Hebron,"

Strange. Imprisoning? Do you think he forgot they were murdered for a second? And I don't see an admission that Hamas planned the whole thing. But boy, the press sure is running with it! Conspiracy? Or just having fun?

And I note that he says this after they demolished his house in June. Occupation destroys Saleh Al-Aruri's house in Ramallah | altahrir, news of Islam, Muslims, Arab Spring and special Palestine

Ever had your house stormed and destroyed? You might say some out of character things. And I am not speaking for this man or his character, just pointing out circumstances. Don't know him from a hole in the ground.

Whether or not it was performed with the official sanction of Hamas or Mashaal, I leave you to speculate on.

Speculate? I guess we all do. But I still want proof.

But I am glad that we at least are in agreement that there isn't any. You know why?

Because right now the press is crowing that Hamas has admitted responsibility. Does that bother you? It should. Its huge. We are being manipulated. Can you see that?

Look at my search results!

hamas kidnapping - Yahoo Canada Search Results

The headlines would have us believe its case closed. So would most of the bodies of the articles that I have read. Is it? Is it really? Did Hamas really admit it? The press says they did. Did they?

Mashaal said he had no knowledge of it. He also added that the perpetrators ought to be saluted.

Quote please. If you still think we are not being manipulated, maybe that will show you.

Again, not saying he did not say it. But I have read several articles already reporting things that did not match at all with the quotes.

I have every reason to doubt that al-Aruri would have said what he said had these events unfolded at the hands of Israeli agents.

That assumes he knows the source. Whether it was Israel agents, ISIS operatives, or the Devil himself, how is he to know?? All we can know for sure he knows is whether or not it was Hamas operatives

I have every reason to doubt that Israel "needed" to drum up even more anti-Palestinian sentiment.

So you did not notice the sway of opinion against Israel for its settlements just prior to the kidnappings?

I have every reason to doubt that Mossad would have hatched such a ridiculous plan as to kidnap and murder three teenage boys, then bury them on a Palestinian's property.

As has been determined, murder was not part of the plan for those who arranged it and paid for it. Thus, neither was the burial part of the plan.

And we still have the fact that despite all this confusion, and only now know that the kidnappers were in fact Hamas operatives even if not put in motion by the organization, boy, wasn't Netanyahu awful fast to blame Hamas when the kidnappings were reported? Then awful slow to tell us about those gunshots in the phone call?

I, or anyone, can only work with the information provided. And there are still plenty of holes left in the tapestry.

For example, Hamas has admitting to doing plenty, like the 2012 Tel Aviv bus bombing attack. Why hold back now? The bombs have been flying for a while now. What is the worst that could happen?

 

[Hezam]

First, i'm happy to see you and nahadef notifying me about my manner,i appreciate it, i admit i sometimes get angry for reasons, i think you will not be able to understand how a middle eastern person feels until you live in the middle east as an Arab citizen.

I feel compelled to point out that neither Fox nor BBC are Zionist organizations - but if you like I will listen to your arguments as to why you think they are Zionist.

I forgot to mention that the Arabic page of BBC is controlled by pro-Arab-dictators, i forgot to mention that i don't read the English page, The Arabic BBC page supports the Arab governments and they fake reports, i found out how similar it's to Alarabiya, It's almost a copy of it. Sorry for missing this point.

I am happy to stand up for Middle East people who aren't hoping for some sort of genocide or who don't seek to establish a religious utopia.

Majestic, i will respect your personal position if you feel the same no matter who (Christian/Jews/Muslim/Hindu/Budhist) hope for genocide or seek to create a religious utopia BUT why do you ignore purposly the fact that Israelis have commited genocides and they did created a religious utopia and they insist to call it Jewish state, Why man ?

. In another post you complained about Iraq's Al-Maliki. I agreed with your grievances, but you didn't seem happy about that. Two days later Maliki was gone, thanks largely to US pressure. I think it is a good use of US influence. But of course it has the potential to cause further disruption. But on the whole it seems to be a positive step for Iraq's political evolution. Hopefully you agree.

i really really want to believe this but isn't the US who brought Almaliki to the rule? if they remove him after he killed many people it means they corrected their mistake But instead they installed another Maliki, the new prime minister is not different from Almaliki, He is still bombing houses and murdering people, Actually he can't decide what or what not to do, Iran is the ruler now, and you know what iran is, the most faciest system after Hitler.

You also hoped that the US would do more to oppose ISIS. I agreed with you again, but you didn't like that either. Anyway, by the end of that week the US was committing millions of dollars and resources to repel ISIS - this seems to be a good thing for the Middle East. We can continue that discussion in that thread if you like.

Fighting ISIS before removing the Assad will never work, It will lead to more spreading of ISIS, Money is not a weapon, It's not a support against well armed army (Assad's) and Well armed/trained group (ISSI).

One thing the US could do would be to withhold resources from Israel until they remove their settlements in the occupied territories. I think you and I would agree that would be a positive thing, yes?

a Yes since 1967.

Another thing the US should do would be to put more pressure on Saudi Arabia to allow more freedoms, more democracy. Unfortunately this could be destabilizing in a way that won't benefit Saudis, so I understand this has big risks.

No, Leave people who are satisfied with their own lifestyle, 90% of Saudis are completely satisfied with the Saudi law, that's what a wise person do (let sleeping dogs lie).

In general I'm for freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, emancipation of women, public (secular) education for all. Anything that helps these concepts take hold in the ME I support.

Sounds like a religious thoughts too, let me rephrase it from a ME view :
freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, men' & Women's modesty, same education for all and private class for each (optional).

 

[Dotanbatan]

Some sanity at last amidst the madness of the last seven weeks.

Gaza ceasefire: Israel and Palestinians agree to halt weeks of fighting | World news | The Guardian

500 local children dead and Hamas are claiming victory!! - Sickening sacrifice of the innocent for nothing.

2,100 people killed as Israel expressed their belief that Hamas now have less than 1/3 of their previous weapons stockpile. - Sickening, futile waste of human life.

Let's hope the sanity prevails and the ceasefire can be built on to lead to peace talks again.

 

[Dotanbatan]

ZORRO
You said:
"These innocent young men were kidnapped and murdered. Many questions remain. Joke time is over".


It looks like the point I was trying to make was a bit flippant and not understood. Apologies for that.



My point is that I and perhaps others reading and responding to this thread look upon Zionist and 'False Flag' conspiracies in a similar vein to the way we all (I hope) would view an Alien abduction theory .... Can you, I or anyone else prove or disprove it? No.

Of course there are many questions remaining. You are not a fool Zorro, infact you come across as an intelligent person, but I find the need to have 'proof' or 'facts' for any debatable topic a bit naive.

If they found an actual video of the abductions and killings ﾂ… would that answer your questions?
But was the tape edited or even staged ... by Mossad? .. The CIA?.. A teenage Palestinian hacker living in Sheffield, England? ﾂ….. It would only lead to more questions.

If you are looking for the ultimate answer to every question including the big one ... it can be found without looking to any of the great faiths. Douglas Adams has already revealed it.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Some sanity at last amidst the madness of the last seven weeks.

Gaza ceasefire: Israel and Palestinians agree to halt weeks of fighting | World news | The Guardian

500 local children dead and Hamas are claiming victory!! - Sickening sacrifice of the innocent for nothing.

2,100 people killed as Israel expressed their belief that Hamas now have less than 1/3 of their previous weapons stockpile. - Sickening, futile waste of human life.

So I think its safe to say that in WWII you would have criticized the French Resistance and suggested they join the Vichy government. And every time a German retaliatory action happened in France, you would place blame on the French Resistance.

Its obvious the French Resistance did not want peace, isn't it?

 

[Majestic]

We are at the point of diminishing returns in this endlessly circular argument. When a Hamas agent claims Hamas agents carried out the kidnappings, and that admission is used by you as evidence of Mossad's complicity, we are at an impasse of logic that can never be breached. When the Palestinian suspect of the kidnapping says Hamas organized it, and it can be claimed by you that no such admission was made, it is again a logical black hole from which there is no escape. Likewise when Hamas says it was no Jewish conspiracy, yet you wish to contradict them and claim there is indeed a Jewish conspiracy. There is simply no point in continuing the argument.

To summarize:
You believe that Hamas carried out the kidnappings, but not the murders?
You believe that in the few minutes between the kidnappings and the murders, Hamas released the teens?[post=741756] Zorro's post[/post]
You believe that after collecting the teens from somewhere, Mossad decided that the abduction by itself wasn't strong enough to foment anti-Hamas sentiment, and so Mossad decided to kill the teens to increase anti-Hamas sentiment.
A Hamas leader claims Hamas agents were culpable for the kidnappings, but he remains silent on the killings even though they had nothing to do with them.

I find your theory to be utterly ridiculous, but I leave it to the few readers of this thread who have read thus far to decide that for themselves. Whether any of my answers are odd, incomplete or unsubstantiated is another thing I leave to the readers.

 

[Majestic]

Hezam-san, regarding media bias, obviously we are both aware of this. We both know that not everything Al Jazeera or CNN or Fox news says can be taken at face value. Basically I have found Al Jazeera to be very interesting. I think they do make some effort to be balanced.

I do feel the same about genocide regardless of who is perpetrating it. To be candid, I am not aware of any Jewish genocide. I don't believe Israel has ever attempted or stated a desire to exterminate a race or a group of people. I think the vast majority of Israelis support the two-state solution. And if I'm not mistaken the vast majority of Palestinians do as well. The sooner this can be achieved, the better. I do agree that Israel should not exist as a Jewish utopia. It is indeed a tragedy of history. However I do not believe Israel should now be wiped off the map (in the same way that I do not believe the Vatican, or Islamic states should be wiped off the map).

Yes, the US did indeed support Maliki's presidency. I don't know enough about Haider al-Abadi to comment. With regard to your other comments I note that there is some agreement on key points, including Israel. I note your comments about Saudi Arabia, but for me it is an uncomfortable compromise - the Saudi lifestyle depends to some extent (to a large extent, I think) on support from the US. The US supports the House of Saud. So I'm curious if you consider this support to be interference, or if you consider this support a good thing or not. Its a topic for another, perhaps very interesting thread.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

We are at the point of diminishing returns in this endlessly circular argument. When a Hamas agent claims Hamas agents carried out the kidnappings, and that admission is used by you as evidence of Mossad's complicity,

Before going further, I just want to make sure you figure out that I never used that as evidence.

1) You can either respond with proof that I did, or admit that is a mistake.

How about that?

Also, every single one of your "You believe" statements under "to summarize" are completely and utterly invented by you are are totally contemptible, uncalled for and disgusting. Or do you actually believe they were remotely anything I thought or posted? I suppose I will get to that later, but....

2) I would also like you to clearly state if you think the press is very liberally and very slantedly misinterpreting the words of Hamas leaders or not.

1 and 2. Could we have those laid out clearly for now. Please, feel no need to ramble this time. You have said plenty already.

 

[Dotanbatan]

So I think its safe to say that in WWII you would have criticized the French Resistance and suggested they join the Vichy government. And every time a German retaliatory action happened in France, you would place blame on the French Resistance.

Its obvious the French Resistance did not want peace, isn't it?

I'm just lost for words!!!!!

You have just compared the Israelis to the Nazis.

You also compared the French Resistance (that fought so valiantly to save the French Jews), to Hamas !!!

The same Hamas that is officially listed as a terrorist organization by virtually every democratically elected government in the world.

I give up.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I'm just lost for words!!!!!

You have just compared the Israelis to the Nazis.

So did Albert Einstein. But you probably think he was not all that smart.

You also compared the French Resistance (that fought so valiantly to save the French Jews), to Hamas !!!

Any other Sunday, the majority of what the French Resistance did is known as terrorism. When the Taliban or Hamas does the same things, they sure don't get any credit for it.

I would love to browse a compendium detailing French Resistance actions but I am finding it somewhat hard to find. Even harder has been finding what sort of retaliation they garnered from the Germans for their actions. Seems no one wants to say. You think there was none?

I will tell you this though: No one is denying that the French Resistance summarily executed collaborators. It even has a name l'epuration sauvage, the savage purge. The 18 executed by Hamas recently is nothing by comparison. But you seem to have a stark black and white view of these things.

The same Hamas that is officially listed as a terrorist organization by virtually every democratically elected government in the world.

Was there a democratic vote on the status of Hamas? Or was it just the same leaders of these so-called democratic countries who either profit from ties with Israel or have cronies that do?

I give up.

Okay. Especially considering the comparing Israelis to Nazis thing. Arguing with Albert Einstein is extremely frustrating. I can't say I compare, but I suppose I am no fun either.

I suppose you could seek out Noam Chomsky and Stephen Hawking and argue with them about Israel and Palestine. But, I don't know. Maybe you don't consider them to be such mental giants either. Or perhaps, just not wielding of enough political and military power to really capture your interest. Really, what is intelligence if its not used to lord over people, eh?

 

[alecgraham]

We are at the point of diminishing returns in this endlessly circular argument.
...
There is simply no point in continuing the argument.

I'm just lost for words!!!!!
..
I give up.

Welcome to the Zorro Vortex, guys, and congratulations on making it through. There are T-shirts in the back on your way out. We have small, medium and large. LOL.

Dotanbatan: You have just compared the Israelis to the Nazis.
Zorro: So did Albert Einstein. But you probably think he was not all that smart.

Zorro, if you're going to complain about the media misleading people or twisting words, you should practice what you preach. Like any reasonable person, Albert Einstein often had reservations about the direction in which Israel was going. He did not, however, equate them with Nazis.

Stop drinking the Jeff Rense kool-aid.
Political views of Albert Einstein - Wikipedia

 

[alecgraham]

And, Stephen Hawking had planned to attend an event in Israel but was bullied and pressured out of it by protestors, much like Roger Waters tried to get Neil Young to cancel a concert in Israel. Pro-Israeli Jews aren't the only group with a powerful lobby.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Like any reasonable person, Albert Einstein often had reservations about the direction in which Israel was going. He did not, however, equate them with Nazis.

The word was not equate, but compare.

Also, not all Germans were Nazis even in the early 40s. Many were. And they had power. And not all Israelis can be compared, but many can, even still today. And they have power.

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties.

--Einstein and many others, 1948

Albert Einstein letter New York Times, December 4, 1948

That is the party of Menachem Begin, who had considerable power since Israel was founded, and was once Minister of Offense and also PM. Let's not pretend that that Jewish Nazi's influence is not felt even today.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

And, Stephen Hawking had planned to attend an event in Israel but was bullied and pressured out of it by protestors,

Says you. What? You think a man like Stephen Hawking could not be convinced except by bullying?

Tell you what. How's about you quote Stephen Hawking saying he wanted to go, but was bullied.

Welcome to the Zorro Vortex

You could also voice your opinion on how the press is twisting words. Or do you approve...quietly?

 

[alecgraham]

I'm going to get sucked into the vortex, but here's a brief reply:

1. in your French resistance analogy, you did equate the Israelis with the Nazi regime, plain and simple.
2. If you read the link I provided, Einstein had a strong connection with Israel. It's all there.
3. Your NYT letter shows a single right-wing political party.

Casually stating without context that "Einstein did (compare the Israelis to Nazis)" is dishonest, misleading, and exactly the kind of irresponsible writing you rail about with respect to the media on a regular basis.

Let's not pretend that that Jewish Nazi's influence is not felt even today.

I'll never suggest that all Israelis are perfect. Let's not pretend that you and I can have a debate when you press buttons like that.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I'm going to get sucked into the vortex, but here's a brief reply:

1. in your French resistance analogy, you did equate the Israelis with the Nazi regime, plain and simple.

No I did not. I compared. And I said GERMANS. Don't put words in my mouth. Dotanbatan already did. It was HE who first said Nazis.

I say compared because I never said all of Israel is the same as the Nazis. Not what I said, although there was an element in there. I am sorry if you feel the need to insist I believe something as silly as an entire country of people being able to to be equated with a political party of a certain country. That is stupid beyond belief. But you hang on to that if you want to.

2. If you read the link I provided, Einstein had a strong connection with Israel. It's all there.

Yeah. And lots of people with connections to Germany warned everyone about the original Nazis before they took power.

No matter where fascists live and no matter how much power they have, they are fascists. They basically only represent themselves, but there have been fascist elements with considerable power throughout Israel's history.

If you are going to say that means I think all Israelis are fascists and can all be equated with Nazis, you go right ahead. Next you can say I believe that all Americans are Republicans.

3. Your NYT letter shows a single right-wing political party.

Yeah bro. Tell me something I don't know. What you insist on not understanding is that that right-wing political party had a lot of influence and still does. Likud is descended from that same party Einstein warned us about. Can you tell me what party is controlling Israel today?

Casually stating without context that "Einstein did (compare the Israelis to Nazis)" is dishonest, misleading, and exactly the kind of irresponsible writing you rail about with respect to the media on a regular basis.

Bull. I was just proving that I am not alone in making comparisons between Nazis and some Israelis. None of it was intended to be the end all be all about Einstein's view of Israel. Damn dude. You want Einstein's complete views of Israel? Open a thread!

 

[alecgraham]

I know I'm getting somewhere when I get a bro and a dude.

No I did not. I compared. And I said GERMANS. Don't put words in my mouth. Dotanbatan already did. It was HE who first said Nazis.

And I didn't see you protesting then. In fact, your next line was "So did Einstein." You didn't deny it, and you didn't say that no, you specified "Germans", you said, "So did Einstein."
But even if you had tried to wriggle out of this with the "Germans" argument, you would fail. C'mon- World War II? French resistance? Who were they resisting? French civilians? No, they were resisting The Nazis.

Yeah. And lots of people with connections to Germany warned everyone about the original Nazis before they took power.

But they did not go on to be a part of that country's history, as was the case with Einstein. Of course, Israel made this possible because it is not Nazi Germany, and could absorb any criticism A.E. might have about Begin.

If you are going to say that means I think all Israelis are fascists and can all be equated with Nazis, you go right ahead. Next you can say I believe that all Americans are Republicans

.
I'm going to say what I always say: You are very strict and demanding when it comes to the words of other posters and of the media. Not so much when it's your own words. Sloppy, fast and loose.

You insist on proof of a negative for highly unlikely scenarios like this false flag business, but no evidence is enough for you if someone from Hamas claims to have done the deed, because the other Hamas members said it was done without their knowledge. Like that.

What can I say? I look forward to our continued amicable discussions of non-political topics.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

And I didn't see you protesting then. In fact, your next line was "So did Einstein."

For some people, the Germans of WWII WERE the Nazis, same thing. Of course its not that simple, but how much can I explain that to Dotanbatan? I know him. I know his brain can't go quite that far. And to make it more clear, it was not really meant for YOUR consumption. But you could at least be cognizant that it was Dotanbatan that switched terms.

THAT said whether its WWII German actions or Nazi rationale we are talking about, there are valid comparisons to be made and Einstein made such a comparison. I agree with Einstein. But it seems I am barred from making a similar comparison as Einstein. What is that about?

I am not trying to wiggle out of anything and I am not trying to put words in Einsteins mouth.

Who were they resisting? French civilians? No, they were resisting The Nazis.

So what? You think they left non-Nazi German Wermacht alone? Wake up! I expect a bit more from you than Dotanbatan. The French Resistance was resisting the GERMANS. They would have continued to do so even if a different political party took control of Germany.

But they did not go on to be a part of that country's history, as was the case with Einstein. Of course, Israel made this possible because it is not Nazi Germany, and could absorb any criticism A.E. might have about Begin.

Once again you accuse me of equating when I was comparing. Just because fascists in Israel did not come to dominate the country in the same way as the Nazis dominated Germany does not make all comparisons invalid.

I'm going to say what I always say: You are very strict and demanding when it comes to the words of other posters and of the media. Not so much when it's your own words. Sloppy, fast and loose.

Yeah, I should have slammed Dotanbatan for putting words in my mouth. Then again, you could be a bit more understanding that I might be less than perfect when dealing with such idiocy.

You insist on proof of a negative for highly unlikely scenarios like this false flag business, but no evidence is enough for you if someone from Hamas claims to have done the deed, because the other Hamas members said it was done without their knowledge. Like that.

That is just a bunch of tripe. I have accepted that Hamas members were the actual kidnappers. But you want to skip over the fact that they were hired by a non-Hamas member himself hired by persons as yet unknown.

Blaming all of Hamas for the actions of a few is getting old. And you are sinking to Dotanbatan's level with your seeing all black and all white.

 

[nahadef]

I know him. I know his brain can't go quite that far.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Wake up! I expect a bit more from you than Dotanbatan.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Then again, you could be a bit more understanding that I might be less than perfect when dealing with such idiocy.
~~~~~~~~~~~
And you are sinking to Dotanbatan's level with your seeing all black and all white.

All reasons not to bother having any discussion with Zorro. No ability to stick to facts, he needs to insult as he discusses.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I think you guys might have a cartoon image of Nazis, yet cannot see certain people in power in Israel today with the same cartoon glasses.

Well, look, the Nazis were not cartoons. They were real people they were not made from cookie cutters.

The people in Israel responsible for the continued oppression and collective punishment of Palestinians are comparable to Nazis. Just because they are Jewish and not gassing Jews does not make the comparison invalid. The Nazis were about a hell of a lot more than that, and yes, Israelis and Jews are quite capable of subscribing to a majority of Nazi positions even if they remain Jewish.

These things are not black and white. And what Israel is doing to Palestine is either fascist or a staple of fascist reasoning.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

All reasons not to bother having any discussion with Zorro. No ability to stick to facts, he needs to insult as he discusses.

The truth is not an insult. I have no respect for Dotanbatan and it has to do with experience. He cannot keep up.

If I had the power to boot him from this thread, I would have long ago. Look at his "alien abduction" post. You think that was remotely helpful or even relevant to the discussion up to that point in the thread?

Your problems with me should not endear you to a fool.

 

[Dotanbatan]

The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it, but in the end, there it is.


Sad to hear you don't respect me. I obviously lack your wisdom and intelligence ... as it seems I can't keep up!

Oh well, I'll consider myself booted from your thread.


The answer is 42 by the way .... in case your Google search was playing up!

 

[Hezam]

Dotanbatan, Hamas alone stopped israel and forced the israelis to accept Hamas's terms, As Yehouda Shenhav stated "Israel has never been defeated like this time" not just him but many politicians said similar statments.
Hamas alone against israel with Arab zionist league, and the west.
This war and all israel wars on Hamas proved that israelis do not understand any logic other than POWER.

Hezam-san, regarding media bias, obviously we are both aware of this. We both know that not everything Al Jazeera or CNN or Fox news says can be taken at face value. Basically I have found Al Jazeera to be very interesting. I think they do make some effort to be balanced.

I can't compare Fox to CNN or Foreign Policy nor to AlJazeera, Fox is not worthy to watch.
And Yes we can't take what Media says as 100% facts but to some level there are legit press that deserve credit.

I do feel the same about genocide regardless of who is perpetrating it. To be candid, I am not aware of any Jewish genocide.

Jewish is not the proper word, Jews have never comitted war crimes at least from 1400 years ago until they moved to Palestine, that's when they started comitting massacres to achieve one purpose , a genocide to clean Palestine from it's original people.

I don't believe Israel has ever attempted or stated a desire to exterminate a race or a group of people. I think the vast majority of Israelis support the two-state solution.

i read this yesterday, i was shocked and i didn't want to post an emotional reply, i want to ask you with all what honesty means, Do you know the history of Israel since the British gave Palestine to Jews ?

And if I'm not mistaken the vast majority of Palestinians do as well. The sooner this can be achieved, the better.

Even though Jews have no single right in Palestine, nor the British do, i'm against the existing of israel as it's now, i'm 100% with Jewish existing in Any Arab nation including Palestine but with Arab rule, This is the ultimate justice, As i believe that other people have the right to live in Europe under European rule.

I do agree that Israel should not exist as a Jewish utopia. It is indeed a tragedy of history. However I do not believe Israel should now be wiped off the map (in the same way that I do not believe the Vatican, or Islamic states should be wiped off the map).

I'm with wiping Israel Weapons including Nuclear warheads, Army dismantling, and with establishing a civilian state that Palestinians Muslims/Christians live side by side with Jews, A civilian state that is protected by the UN & Muslim nations.

Yes, the US did indeed support Maliki's presidency.

The US put him on rule, it's not just a support, they installed him and his government by force !

I don't know enough about Haider al-Abadi to comment.

He is now finishing Almaliki's work, At this moment while we are talking, His army is bombing houses as the Assad does.

I note your comments about Saudi Arabia, but for me it is an uncomfortable compromise - the Saudi lifestyle depends to some extent (to a large extent, I think) on support from the US. The US supports the House of Saud. So I'm curious if you consider this support to be interference, or if you consider this support a good thing or not. Its a topic for another, perhaps very interesting thread.

The Western policy is based on interests, As long as this or that system is milch cow why the interference on people life?

Honestly i don't want to talk about the Saudi gov, Prophet Mohammad has described this century as if he witnessed it.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Now seems like a good time to go back to the beginning. To quote myself:

Without proof, Israel blames Hamas and is "retaliating" in various ways.

Without proof, I blame Mossad.

Seems I have managed to get more people angry at me than Israel for doing the same thing as Israel.

Its almost like I killed somebody.

Fact is I have as much proof as anybody in this, which is to say I have nothing conclusive to blame any particular organization legitimately. And its not the first time I said so.

For this Dotanbatan brings up alien abuductions and Majestic shouts "ridiculous" repeatedly. Then Dotanbatan and alecgraham shove words down my throat and alecgraham insults me with this Zorro vortex business. Then Nahadef condemns me for hitting back. Sorry, no Christ here. Not going to get nailed to a cross quietly.

It would be nice if we could get past the denial stage concerning a great many things surrounding this case, and move into the acceptance stage and then get to the question of whether you folks can see the media lying about the statements of Hamas leaders or not.

Can you see it? Or do you not want to see it and therefore nitpick about other things? Sure, I should not have succumbed to the barbs and nitpicking, but could we move on?

Simple question: Are Hamas leaders' words being twisted and willfully misinterpreted or not?

I am not asking anyone to like them or agree with them. Just asking if you can see the BS the media is subjecting us to?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Even though Jews have no single right in Palestine, nor the British do, i'm against the existing of israel as it's now, i'm 100% with Jewish existing in Any Arab nation including Palestine but with Arab rule, This is the ultimate justice, As i believe that other people have the right to live in Europe under European rule.

I am not totally sure what you mean there Hezam. Arab rule? I am sure I speak for the rest of us here when I say that sounds bad. So does European rule. Again, I think I speak for the rest of us here when I say we can only agree to democratic rule in principle (though fact is in reality we settle for far less).

We might even let "majority rules" slide.

I'm with wiping Israel Weapons including Nuclear warheads, Army dismantling, and with establishing a civilian state that Palestinians Muslims/Christians live side by side with Jews, A civilian state that is protected by the UN & Muslim nations.

Sounds better, but it still sounds like submission rather than democracy, or even a constitutional republic. Whoever the populace of Israel/Palestine is in the future, they should all be equals and their nation should be armed the same as everyone else, or NO ONE else.

Not speaking about nukes though. Those need to go.