Try to learn 2000 joyo kanji at once before starting extensive reading

[prismcolour]

Would be great to get a response from someone who can read Japanese proficiently.

Before I start getting into studying kanji, I am curious as to what the best route would be if the goal I had in mind was geared towards "Extensive reading". Should I learn the 2000 basic kanji in 1 year, and then start extensive reading so that I have some semblance of all the kanji once I start reading? Or... Should I learn the first 80 kanji (grade 1), and then spend time on beginner friendly reading material? I know they have those Japanese graded reader series books which a lot of people seem to enjoy. But I'm more concerned with what would make for a stronger foundation for reading skills--- The 2000 kanji/practice reading all sorts of material or the 80 grade 1 kanji and practicing those 80 kanji via beginner reading material?

There's a part of me that wants to learn all the kanji at once before I start getting into any serious reading. But I don't know if I will be able to recognize most of the kanji after going through all of them. Say if in a year, I am reading something and I recognize the kanji but don't remember it, I can always look it up and it will jog my memory for next time whereas if after I learn 80 kanji and practice those 80 until I know them, I'm still limited to knowing those 80 kanji because I haven't seen the remaining 1720.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[blutorange]

I would like to stress that the following is my own experience and personal opinion. That's how I did it - the same may or may not work for you.

First of all, the ~2000 jouyou kanji are not "all" the kanji (not even with the latest addition). When I take a list of jouyou kanji, there are some I'm surprised they're even in there, because there quite rare (=I haven't seen them often.) On the other hand, there are quite some non-jouyou kanji I encounter more often. I haven't kept track, but I would expect the number of non-jouyou kanjis I've seen to be >1000 (excluding proper names).

Now, it depends on what you mean by extensive reading, in particular what kind of texts you plan to read. There are many technical/cultural terms that use non-jouyou kanjis.

Expect to find many non-jouyou's in literature (including, to some extent, "short novels", "visual novels", "video games" etc.) and in old writing (~everything before 1945).

Say if in a year, I am reading something and I recognize the kanji but don't remember it, I can always look it up and it will jog my memory for next time whereas if after I learn 80 kanji and practice those 80 until I know them, I'm still limited to knowing those 80 kanji.

That is my personal experience as well. It makes quite the difference for me when I come across some kanji (or word) that, while I can't quite remember it, I am *familiar* with, as in I can remember having seen it already. Some kanii (or word) I've never seen before is another story, it feels, well, new and in a strange alien and strange to me. Learning something from scratch is harder than strenghtening your memory.

With said being said, if I were to learn the kanji again, I would proceed as follows: Study at most the ~1000 taught during the first 6 years of school via the method of your choice - it helps to learn a word (or sentence) that uses it as well. Start reading something of interest to you (eg a short story, newspaper articles (?), blogs &c., but perhaps not Japanese twitter &c. as you will find colloquialisms and abbreviations that make it hard to understand) - the point here is not being able to read everything already, consider it as an alternative way of study. Take note of the kanji you come across here and add them to the list for your favourite method of study. Doing it this way will teach you the kanji you actually need to know, convince you that you actually need to know them, provide context and words that show how to use the kanji and how they are read in compounds, supply you with a positive memory of those kanji (and not "oh that's boring kanji 17xx from that huge boring list that looks the same as #13xx and means the same as #19xx ... who cares); and finally you will get in some real reading practice.

Keep in mind this is my own personal experience and opinion. Try different methods, and if something works for you, it is a good method. If you feel you can learn all jouyou's quickly and with ease, feel free to do so. If you have a hard time learning the first 1000, learn less and start reading simple texts/textbook sentences/online lessons.

One medium that is, unexpectedly, pretty helpful -iff you are interested- are subtitled movies and certain kinds of (story-based) video games: You get the sentence written down, it won't go away until you press a button (or you can pause it) and you can take all the time you need to look up unknown kanji, it is accompanied by voice-acting recorded in a professional environment and gives you a crystal-clear pronunciation without background noise, provide you with a plethora of contextual information to aid your understanding (visual, auditory, coherence ie. what has happened until now, pre-knowledge ie when you have played/watched an English version already).


Don't forget grammar. There are some good guides out there (eg tae kim's guide, and nihongoresources). They provide you quite an extensive "overview" - you won't remember everything when you first read it, but the same principle as above applies - you will be familiar with most of grammar that stands in your way of reading comprehension and you can always look it up and strenghten your memory thus.

 

[chldudghks0517]

In my opinion, I think learning the 教育漢字 for grades 1 through 6 first would be a better option. You get to study the basic radicals which you combine with other Chinese characters to form new words with particular sound or meaning. Of course, this would take more time in a sense that you have to master another set of kanjis, 常用漢字, but this kind of strategy (learning from scratch) is working well for me, at least.

Wait do the set of 教育漢字 and the set of 常用漢字 overlap?

 

[blutorange]

Grade 1-6 are what I was talking about above, and yes, they are part of of the jouyou list, so no time wasted.

 

[FinancialWar]

That's a lot of Kanji, you should just read for fun in the mean time.

 

[Andromedashun]

Not meant to disappoint you, but learning 1000 Joyo Kanji before learning anything doesn't get you anywhere, unless, your language are familiar with Chinese. Grammar and Reading are very hard and can't be learned quickly. I think a guide book and a friend who is good at Japanese are preferable in your occasion.

 

[prismcolour]

@blutorange Thank you for sharing your experience and providing such a great outline on what I need to do to get up to speed in reading. I am going to try to get the first 1000 kanji down like you suggested... and then supplement using real reading material so I can pick up some of the commonly used non-joyo kanji. Your system works well since I ultimately want to read literature at a middle school level and then move on to high school level reading. Let's hope that after the first 1000 joyo kanji, I can move away from textbooks into more enjoyable forms of study.
I also like your idea of watching Japanese subtitled films. Very important so that communication doesn't sound so robotic when reading sentences off the screen. I have trouble grasping the emotion behind how things are said/communicated when I'm reading.
On the grammar front--- Will definitely be checking out Tae Kim's guide. It'll be a bit of juggle studying grammar alongside kanji but will be worth it in the end.

@FinancialWar Agreed. 2000 kanji is a bit much. I used the joyo kanji as a starting point on how to study kanji because it seems most people gravitate to the study info provided for the JLPT. I think after N3 the kanjis in the remaining 1000 for N2/N1 might not be used as much in everyday usage, granted they are still used in newspaper publications, etc. so I can always go back and learn them as I see them. I just don't think it's a good use of time to stop every 30 seconds to look up words from the first 1000 basic joyo kanji when reading middle school books. I think it's best to work on recall when I start reading a lot of material so I can focus on getting things into long-term memory. The first 1000 grade school kanji seem tame enough. Kanji doesn't bite? I could also be very wrong and end up having to take a breather after the first 80.

 

[nekojita]

The 教育漢字 are a subset of the 常用漢字 (the lower levels are split by year to define what people learn in the first few years of school; the rest are a sort of blob of "stuff you should know by the time you graduate high school"). The 常用漢字 themselves are a set produced by the government (actually by MEXT). Because they're at least in part focused on education, they contain things like kanji required to read the Japanese constitution, which aren't actually that common overall.

The list is used for limiting content of textbooks, exams, etc, and for official (government) documentation I believe they stick to it.

However, it is not legally required for publishers more widely to use joyo only; some people think that newspapers won't use non-joyo but the various publishers/newspapers have their own lists/style guides (新聞漢字表) which contain both additions (officially non-joyo kanji which they treat as joyo), subtractions (officially joyo kanji which they treat as non-joyo) and reading variants (officially non-joyo readings for joyo kanji which newspapers use without furigana).

A note on the readings: for education purposes, the joyo lists contains not just kanji but set readings (on/kun) and also a list of words with non-standard readings which should be known. For example, a student should learn that 今日 = きょう, and also be able to read words which use the specified on/kun readings, but for words with non-standard readings people will use furigana.

e.g. 台詞 and 相撲 are both words formed of joyo kanji, which have readings which are not on/kun. 相撲 is on the joyo list as a standard compound, 台詞 is not. So I would expect someone following the joyo list exactly to use furigana for 台詞 or write it in kana, but to use 相撲 in kanji without furigana.

My personal opinion: I think learning the joyo kanji is not a good target for a learner of Japanese. They are neither necessary nor sufficient for reading real material. I still have never studied all the joyo, and I don't feel the lack. I have no problem with things like newspaper articles or fiction in the areas where my vocabulary is sufficient - I wouldn't want to try and read the financial news but that's an issue with unfamiliar vocab not unknown kanji.

I would recommend to anybody that they try to work their way up the 漢検 (kanken - kanji kentei) levels - not necessarily actually take them, there's quite a bit of practice/mock test stuff available. These are tests of kanji ability for natives which primarily test your ability to read and write words, not individual kanji, in the context of sentences or short texts. What you learn by doing that is that the number of kanji you "know" quickly becomes irrelevant if you don't have the vocabulary to go with them.

 

[prismcolour]

@Andromedashun I'm not worried about the initial hurdles. I'll see how far I get and adjust accordingly. The end goal for me is extensive reading so I'm not trying to be perfect when it comes to getting through everything in the beginning. It'll be all good... one day at a time.

 

[prismcolour]

@nekojita A lot of great points! I don't feel compelled to learn all of the joyo kanji but I do need to be acquainted with kanji in a somewhat structured manner in the beginning. After I have my feet planted solidly in the material, I can learn vocab that I would find useful that are common in what I normally read. Like if i was interested in baking Japanese pastries, I'd probably want to learn relevant vocab/kanji for that type of reading material. There's so many wonderful things to read so I'm highly motivated to learn vocab. Kanji and vocab are the same thing for me. It's very a general approach for me anyway but learning a good amount of Kanji at the onset of Japanese studies means one has access to the Japanese language--even with the missing gaps I have to go back and fill in. I'm going to do what

@blutorange suggested and only go through the first 1000 grade school kanji and then start compiling a personal list of non-joyo kanji based on what I like to read. That seems to be a good "next stepping off" point into the unknown.

I'm going to look into the kanken-kanji kentei levels. This is the first time I've come across that as a gauge for native fluency.

Thanks for sharing your experience as well as providing some alternatives to what I've been seeing on the JLPT boards!

 

[prismcolour]

Getting on this 教育漢字.
I just looked it up via wikipedia. Ky?iku kanji - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Very comprehensive.
Thank you!

 

[prismcolour]

Thanks blu! The grade 1-6 kanji is a very good list. The kanji in the first 1000 is what I need to be learning.

 

[nekojita]

Anyone who tells you you need all the joyo for the JLPT is flat out wrong (I've taken and passed both N2 and N1. There wasn't a single question on either that made me think "I wish I'd spent more time learning kanji off a list"). Most people know a reasonably percentage of the joyo plus a bunch of relevant non-joyo depending on what sort of things they read (for a given definition of "know" - it's not like you learn a kanji once and then you will be able to read any word it appears in).

It is a good idea to start with some sort of structured plan, but after something like education lists (1000-ish) you can definitely start reading native material, providing your vocab and grammar are up to it. Possibly before, again depending on what your vocab and grammar skills are like. What you need at that point is a plan for dealing with unfamiliar kanji/vocabulary/grammar as you come across them. For example, one method when extensive reading is to simply underline (or copy/paste into a separate document if doing it electronically) unfamiliar words, not stopping to look them up as long as you're still at a point where you can grasp the overall gist of the text. Some people would make flashcards at that point to learn the vocab - I personally hate flashcards but they seem quite popular, so it depends what works for you (学問に王道なし - there is no royal road to learning).

One thing I always recommend - start with non-fiction, aimed at early teens, on a topic that you are interested in and know a lot about. It's actually easier than fiction.

 

[blutorange]

One point that has not been brought up is what "learning" a kanji actually entails. There's quite a bit you can learn about kanji - stroke count, stroke order, classical radical, various other classifications, structural classification (pictogram, semantic-phonetic compound &c.), etymology and development of senses, variants (eg 旧/舊), different writing styles (eg gothic, mincho, cursive, seal), various On-readings, many Kun-readings, association between a reading and its meaning, readings used in proper names, archaic/rare/uncommon readings (eg 事える=tukaeru), special readings when used in compounds (eg 台詞, which is quite common despite not being on the official list), and perhaps more. Needless to say, you should not learn all that at once.

Learning or knowing a kanji is not so much like knowing the latin alphabet, but perhaps you could draw a comparison with prepositions such as "at", "by", "on", or simple words such as "put". Somebody learning English would get acquainted with alk their nuances in different contexts gradually, while immersing himself in the language.

Opinions differ and you can google for more, what I would suggest is to keep it to a minimum to prevent information overload. Readings will be covered when learning vocabulary. Learn some stroke order basics and you should be able to guess the stroke quite well. Heisig's Remembering the Kanji concentrates on a keyword for each kanji to serve as a mnemonic, you might want to add the general meaning, the most (or a) common On-reading, and perhaps one common Kun-reading. (Which is basically a Japanese word mapped to the kanji. You can learn it now to increase your vocabulary, or don't bother with Kun-readings for now and do it when learning new words).

As has been pointed out, you can't really learn kanji on their own without grammar, compounds, vocabulary &c, so try not to learn to much and risk a burn-out or motivation crisis, and concentrate on familiarizing yourself with the kanji.

Also, learning kanji gets easier as you start to know more and more. To give an example, one common pattern for kanji is that they consist of two kanji united into one, one giving the general meaning, the other the pronunciation. Let's say you already know the Japanese for carp (koi), village (sato) and lots of kanji. While reading, you come across a new kanji: 鯉. It consists of 魚(fish) and 里(reading ri, same as in 理-ri). Even without looking it up, you could guess it's the name of some fish, and depending on the nature of the text, that might be all you need to know. If you want to learn the kanji, all the additional, new information you need to learn is to establish a mental link between koi and sato, everything else follows from that. Another example would be 躊躇, easy to read and hard to write, reading the familiar kanjis 壽著 pretty much gives you the correct pronunciation chuucho, and you should have no problems understanding the word assuming your vocabulary is up to the task. Now, it's not always so simple in reality and there are exceptions, but luckily, rarer kanji seem to be more regular (like English irregular/strong verbs).
The point still stands that learning kanji the hard way decreases in usefulness as your studies progress. I still come across kanji I don't know (or forgot) occassionaly, but if I don't understand some text or paragraph, hardly ever are kanji the culprit.

Concerning flash cards, I did not use anki, but printed myself some - I like to to have them in front of me, and be able to say I cleared that bunch over there. Although I believe I stopped using them after 500 kanji or so and spent the time it would otherwise take me organizing and reviewing them on real practing (reading/listening &c.)

 

[Morphling]

IMHO pointless learning kanji in isolation especially the way kanji is incorporated into Japanese which is highly irregular and only frustrates.

Learning kanji first only may be of benefit in Chinese as it is very regular with primarily single reading and act like the alphabet.

In Japanese, I would learn the vocab first rather than the kanji and remember the kanji of the vocab you encounter.

E.g. かんがえる to think, then learn 考える as a word. しこう thought 思考. そのあと そのご そののち afterwards その後

I would ignore joyo list as only government and newspaper pay any attention.

Learn words first with reading, then kanji. This is because kanji came later. Japanese existed before kanji was imported and you will find basic Japanese has much high focus on basic Japanese words where kanji is optional rather than Sino Japanese words where complex ideas need to be expressed.

 

[Morphling]

Try to learn 2000 joyo kanji at once before starting extensive reading? Yes o...

One point that has not been brought up is what "learning" a kanji actually entails. There's quite a bit you can learn about kanji - stroke count, stroke order, classical radical, various other classifications, structural classification (pictogram, semantic-phonetic compound &c.), etymology and development of senses, variants (eg 旧/舊), different writing styles (eg gothic, mincho, cursive, seal), various On-readings, many Kun-readings, association between a reading and its meaning, readings used in proper names, archaic/rare/uncommon readings (eg 事える=tukaeru), special readings when used in compounds (eg 台詞, which is quite common despite not being on the official list), and perhaps more. Needless to say, you should not learn all that at once.

まず訓読みは本来漢文を読むために作られたものであり、その読みは日本人にとってもそれほど簡単なものではありません。漢文を読む必要がない限り、「事える」などという訓読みを無視したほうがいいと思います。

例:「事之以犬馬」を漢文訓読体にする時、当時、なるべく中国語の古文と同じ漢字を使うためにいろいろ工夫しました。その結果、答えは「之に事ふるに犬馬を以つです」になります。事という字、中国の古典に用命に応ずるという意味があるから、つかえるという和語に其れを当てはめられた結果です。

でもこれはあくまで比較的に単純明快な例に過ぎず、読みと意味と違うものや、再読文字など、とても煩雑なものもある。

例えば、由の訓読みのなかで「なお…のごとし」という妙な訓読みがあります。これは漢文の文法を翻訳するための読みです。朗読する時に、由という字を二回よまなければならない。

あと旁を覚えれば、確かに音読みを推測できますが、例外が多くあり、日本語に於ける有用性はどうかなと思います。鯉の音読みはリですが、日常生活では使えない読みです。ふつうはコイという訓読みでしょう。現代中国語でもliだけでわかりづらくて、ふつうは鯉魚と言います。ところで「鯉魚(リギョウ)」はコイの漢名です。寿と躊の旁は同じですが、よく使われる読みは違います。寿=じゅ、躊=ちゅう。同じなのは漢音だけですが、寿の漢音はあまり使われていません。ところで現代中国語ではそれぞれ寿=shou4, 躊=chou2です。

要するに、読みのことを考え過ぎないて、よく使われるものだけを覚えればいいでしょう。

 

[Toritoribe]

以ってす, not 以つです. Sorry for nitpicking.

 

[FinancialWar]

Lol, Toritoribe....

 

[blutorange]

「事ふる」と云う例を挙げたとの事に就いてですが、これを読んでみよっか、と思って遭遇してしまいました。「古の人曰へらく、人は神と財とに重ね事ふること能はず。されば生命の爲に何を食ひ、何を飲み、また身體の爲に何を衣むと思ひ勞らふ勿れ。／美的生活を論ず・高山樗牛」

寿=じゅ、躊=ちゅう。

Mnemonics. When one knows the word, the chain of thought 躊躇->juchou?, ah, chuuchou; comes quite naturally.

よく使われるものだけを覚えればいい

同感です。其以外の読は、経験を以て猶必要が在らば勉強為可し。 ; )

 

[Toritoribe]

因みに蛇足ながら樗牛がそこで言及しているのはマタイ伝です。

 

[prismcolour]

IMHO pointless learning kanji in isolation especially the way kanji is incorporated into Japanese which is highly irregular and only frustrates.

Learning kanji first only may be of benefit in Chinese as it is very regular with primarily single reading and act like the alphabet.

In Japanese, I would learn the vocab first rather than the kanji and remember the kanji of the vocab you encounter.

E.g. かんがえる to think, then learn 考える as a word. しこう thought 思考. そのあと そのご そののち afterwards その後

I would ignore joyo list as only government and newspaper pay any attention.

Learn words first with reading, then kanji. This is because kanji came later. Japanese existed before kanji was imported and you will find basic Japanese has much high focus on basic Japanese words where kanji is optional rather than Sino Japanese words where complex ideas need to be expressed.

I totally agree with this method. Makes a lot of sense since the kanji came after. I'm looking at the list of grade 1-6 kanji at Kyōiku kanji. Do you recommend learning all the hiragana/readings for each grade level and then starting the kanji? Ex. Learn the first 80 grade 1 hiragana vocab words, and then start on the kanji right after for those 80 words? Or do it in intervals like learn 10 grade 1 vocab words, and then learn the corresponding 10 kanji/compounds (I will look everything up on jisho.org for usage/etc + other common compouds)? Basically, grade 1 has 80 vocab words, but grade 2 has 160 vocab words, so in grade 2, should I learn all 160 vocab words in hiragana and then start the kanji, or again work in intervals of 10 vocab words, 10 kanji? I just don't know what would be best for getting the kanji into long-term memory--I'm not a crammer or anything but I like to get a system down before I start so that I can stay on top of studying.

Essentially I get what you are saying, so what's going to end up happening hopefully is I will have all the vocabulary down first (in speech form--day to day convo)...and then I can tackle the reading via kanji learning.

Thank you!