Gender (in)equality in JAPAN

[jwdj]

Hey everyone.!
I've been reading a lot about gender inequality in Japan, that women are not given equal opportunities in the workplace. Due to traditional Japanese views, women's role in the society are to be housewives while men earn a living. I know gender equality/diversity in the workplace is seen as an important issue, and even PM Shinzo Abe has vowed to elevate women in the society (although with much trouble). I am wondering how bad this issue is from the Japanese' perspectives..?
What do you guys think about gender equality in Japan? May be those who have lived/worked there could give me some insights?
Thanks

 

[nahadef]

I have found in Japan that a shocking number of women aspire to be housewives. I've met successful female doctors, lawyers, etc, who did nothing of the sort, but a lot of women simply want to do that and think it is an appropriate thing. I was visibly shocked my first year of hearing it, and gradually got accustomed to it.

Maybe it is a lack of role models, or maybe it is an embrace of gender roles. Impossible to say.

There are less job opportunities, in that women are often not considered long term employees, since they're expected to leave/quit after pregnancy. That said, women can rise up in the ranks if they are committed, and there are many exceptions to the cultural standard.


Another thing to consider is that in Japan, the housewife is often the 'man' of the house. I had a number of Japanese co-workers who handed over their paychecks to their wives every month and got an allowance. I laughed at them for that... Until I got married. After about a year, I gave up and handed my bank card to my wife. I never see my monthly salary. I do some private work, and that is my spending money, and I give my wife half of that as well. My wife does enough work that I don't feel exploited, but I often feel like the workhorse in the relationship. Not unusual. I would say we're about equal.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

What surprises me is the persistent denial that men and women are fundamentally different in what they want to do in life. Its natural, and even evident in the animal kingdom. Female mammals stick close to their young and will even adopt the juveniles that find themselves motherless. Male mammals generally don't show much interest. So its not surprise that most women want children or want to live a life of direct nurturing, ie cleaning house and feeding a husband.

A great many male mammals tend to roam solitary far and wide. So no surprise men don't want to sit around at home, but want to get out and do something.

And since MOST are like that, people tend to get the idea that they all are. Its stupid as can be, but that is what humans do all the time. They will ignore or not even be aware of the existance of the minority of females who are different, and thus, deny them opportunities, sometimes very conciously, and sometimes not.

Even in the west, which tends to think of itself as gender equal, little has changed with glass ceilings and lower wages for women. And the biggest reason of all is simply that most women prefer to be housewifes and don't want to be captains of industry. Even as little girls they played with baby dolls, while boys played with guns. Nobody taught them to be that way. Its just the way they are.

 

[Haruspex]

What surprises me is the persistent denial that men and women are fundamentally different in what they want to do in life. Its natural, and even evident in the animal kingdom. Female mammals stick close to their young and will even adopt the juveniles that find themselves motherless. Male mammals generally don't show much interest. So its not surprise that most women want children or want to live a life of direct nurturing, ie cleaning house and feeding a husband.

A great many male mammals tend to roam solitary far and wide. So no surprise men don't want to sit around at home, but want to get out and do something.

And since MOST are like that, people tend to get the idea that they all are. Its stupid as can be, but that is what humans do all the time. They will ignore or not even be aware of the existance of the minority of females who are different, and thus, deny them opportunities, sometimes very conciously, and sometimes not.

Even in the west, which tends to think of itself as gender equal, little has changed with glass ceilings and lower wages for women. And the biggest reason of all is simply that most women prefer to be housewifes and don't want to be captains of industry. Even as little girls they played with baby dolls, while boys played with guns. Nobody taught them to be that way. Its just the way they are.

I completely agree that men and women are biologically quite different and I agree that loads of women aspire to be housewives, but I don't think that it is, necessarily, because they truly WANT to be housewives. I think it's more because they want motherhood. They want children, and being a housewife certainly facilitates the being a mother thing.

There's, of course, those who want nothing more than to spend their adult lives surrounded by diapers laden with faecal matter and loud sociopathic automatons that devour time and money, but I think most women only accept the faecal-y end of the stick with regard to the housewife swindle because they want children, not a bleeding childocalypse. Call me a dystopian crazy bastard, but I think if there's anything that can create gender equality, that is lab breeding human offspring and not that wishy washy 'we'll give you 10% more dough during your maternity leave so that you can keep degrading your economic and medical state for your country like it is your duty'. Might take a while, but I hope it'll happen.

 

[caster55]

 

[Tamayo]

That's a really interesting contribution -- thanks for posting that!


On a side note, I've got to say that Japan seems like a wonderful place for more traditional-minded people such as myself. It could totally be that I just don't understand the situation over there, or perhaps that the Japanese people just aren't nearly as outspoken as Americans are about things like this, but it seems to me that, anomalies aside, most Japanese people embrace gender roles, not only as obligations, but as aspect of their culture that should be celebrated.

One of the things that really fascinates me about Japan is that the men and women are so different from one another, which is a totally polar-opposite idea than what I experience here in the U.S. The fact that "men-only" and "women-only" is such a common theme in Japan makes me think that people can be proud to be men or women instead of constantly fighting over the delusional American idea of "equality". Very interesting indeed.

 

[FinancialWar]

Hey everyone.!
I've been reading a lot about gender inequality in Japan, that women are not given equal opportunities in the workplace. Due to traditional Japanese views, women's role in the society are to be housewives while men earn a living. I know gender equality/diversity in the workplace is seen as an important issue, and even PM Shinzo Abe has vowed to elevate women in the society (although with much trouble). I am wondering how bad this issue is from the Japanese' perspectives..?
What do you guys think about gender equality in Japan? May be those who have lived/worked there could give me some insights?
Thanks

Whilst in the West, more women have college education, earns more than men, and have impunity from sexual harrassment claim.

 

[nahadef]

That's a really interesting contribution -- thanks for posting that!

I found the four minutes of the video I watched pretty sad. Maybe something happened in the second half to upend the tone of the first half, in which case, I take this back.

A lot of women choose to uphold stereotypical roles in Japan, and I totally support it. But when a women doesn't, they have a major uphill battle. The notion of this video, where women have women's day at the movies (though men do too, it's called men's day), have ladies menus at some restaurants, and special train cars (since men grope them on regular cars (they're called 'chikan' in Japanese), therefore Japan is a woman's paradise. It's really really sad. But I didn't see to the end of the video, so maybe there was something I missed.

On a side note, I've got to say that Japan seems like a wonderful place for more traditional-minded people such as myself. It could totally be that I just don't understand the situation over there, or perhaps that the Japanese people just aren't nearly as outspoken as Americans are about things like this, but it seems to me that, anomalies aside, most Japanese people embrace gender roles, not only as obligations, but as aspect of their culture that should be celebrated.

One of the things that really fascinates me about Japan is that the men and women are so different from one another, which is a totally polar-opposite idea than what I experience here in the U.S. The fact that "men-only" and "women-only" is such a common theme in Japan makes me think that people can be proud to be men or women instead of constantly fighting over the delusional American idea of "equality". Very interesting indeed.

A lot of women are happy to satisfy the role, and as a Westerner, it was shock when I arrived (see post #2 in this thread), but a lot of women don't fit in that box, and it is a concern to them. I have a female Japanese lawyer friend who is appalled at the average woman she meets, and their absolute lack of ambition.

In a similar vein, Japanese women have much easier relationships with Western men than vice versa, since Western men demand way less of Japanese women than vice versa. My wife was pretty shocked, then happy, the first time I took the dishes to the kitchen after dinner. Now she expects it from me. No Japanese man had ever done such a thing for her. I've heard far more extreme stories than that too.

Point is, a lot of women are happy to fulfil that sort of role, but those are also the ones far less likely to be involved in anything foreign, regards to work, much less dating a foreigner.

 

[Tamayo]

I found the four minutes of the video I watched pretty sad. Maybe something happened in the second half to upend the tone of the first half, in which case, I take this back.

Why is that, specifically? Did you get a "this isn't much, but I have to be content with it" vibe from it, or was it something else?

but a lot of women don't fit in that box, and it is a concern to them.

Well, yeah, especially coming from a liberal and feminist country, I can see the downside of a culture that lacks a "you can do anything" narrative for women. I'm a little on the fence about the woman's condition in Japan. On one hand, I absolutely love how most couples tend to be more traditional, not only because I think it works very nicely, but because I'm quite tired of having all of this "different but equal" stuff constantly being shoved down my throat in the U.S. On the other hand, though, I really do feel for people who have a more modern mindset and are held back from doing what it is that they want to do in life.

I think that, perhaps, the fundamental difference between Japan and the U.S. (if Japan's women's rights movement were to come to full fruition) would be that one country is constantly indoctrinating us to believe that women are held down even in spite of the fact that they now enjoy far more privileges and rights than they ever have, while the other would still value traditional roles. It could be, though, that a feminist movement in Japan would do the same thing to Japanese culture as it did to American. It's just that I don't see Japanese people in large numbers demanding things and constantly demonizing men. I couldn't imagine that happening.

In a similar vein, Japanese women have much easier relationships with Western men than vice versa, since Western men demand way less of Japanese women than vice versa.

I've actually been very curious about this topic -- Would you say that foreign men have a "leg up" among Japanese women because they treat women so differently in general? One thing that I do hope is that, if I were to marry a Japanese woman, she'd feel like I treat her very well, not just because I'm a pretty nice guy, but because I would do for her what some Japanese men simply wouldn't.

 

[nahadef]

Why is that, specifically? Did you get a "this isn't much, but I have to be content with it" vibe from it, or was it something else?

Simply that the stuff she talked about wasn't anything connected to being a paradise for women. Lots of companies have tea ladies, women whose job is to serve tea, clean, etc. No man does that job. Discounts on movie tickets vs women only menial servant positions.

I'm sure she's a nice, happy person, but I found the whole topic pretty vapid.

Well, yeah, especially coming from a liberal and feminist country, I can see the downside of a culture that lacks a "you can do anything" narrative for women. I'm a little on the fence about the woman's condition in Japan. On one hand, I absolutely love how most couples tend to be more traditional, not only because I think it works very nicely, but because I'm quite tired of having all of this "different but equal" stuff constantly being shoved down my throat in the U.S. On the other hand, though, I really do feel for people who have a more modern mindset and are held back from doing what it is that they want to do in life.

If you want to subscribe to gender roles, it's great. If not, you're in an awkward position. Personally, I subscribe to the different but equal stuff. My wife wants to do the housework, and doesn't let me. Her choice to run the house. For my daughter, I want her to make her own choices.

I think that, perhaps, the fundamental difference between Japan and the U.S. (if Japan's women's rights movement were to come to full fruition) would be that one country is constantly indoctrinating us to believe that women are held down even in spite of the fact that they now enjoy far more privileges and rights than they ever have, while the other would still value traditional roles. It could be, though, that a feminist movement in Japan would do the same thing to Japanese culture as it did to American. It's just that I don't see Japanese people in large numbers demanding things and constantly demonizing men. I couldn't imagine that happening.

Women in America are still paid less then men for the same work. Men call other men girls as an insult. Rape still has a low rate of conviction. Women are doing better than ever in the States, but they aren't equal. Feminism isn't about men being evil (even if some loud university students might seem that way), it's about women being treated equal.

I've actually been very curious about this topic -- Would you say that foreign men have a "leg up" among Japanese women because they treat women so differently in general? One thing that I do hope is that, if I were to marry a Japanese woman, she'd feel like I treat her very well, not just because I'm a pretty nice guy, but because I would do for her what some Japanese men simply wouldn't.

I'd say no. A woman who is traditional simply wouldn't date a foreigner. There will always be a percentage of the population who are simply off limits. The same thing in the States though. Some people just consciously don't race mix.

 

[Tamayo]

Simply that the stuff she talked about wasn't anything connected to being a paradise for women.

I suppose so, yeah.

Lots of companies have tea ladies, women whose job is to serve tea, clean, etc. No man does that job.

Well. There are plenty of jobs that men will only do.

Personally, I subscribe to the different but equal stuff.

By the way, I didn't mean that I disagree with that idea, if that's what it seemed like. What I take issue with is the fact that people focus so much on the "different" part and not simply the equality part. I'm not totally sure how to describe the way I think about it, but I think that we should be conscious of our differences, but not let them get between one another. While I totally support and prefer traditional gender roles, I still consider both genders to be "worth" the same, and equally important.

What I can't stand is that there are so many people here who behave like idiots and claim it's because of their views, but then they want to say "But you have to treat me the same too!" Feminazis are the ones I'm against, not women in general. I fully support women who aren't interested in the traditional setup so long as they keep their ideas to themselves instead of calling me a pig for not subscribing to the 50 year-old movement.

Women in America are still paid less then men for the same work.

Is that really true, though? Just for being a woman? If that's the case, then it's a bit of a wonder why companies don't just exclusively employ women and save some money.

Women are doing better than ever in the States, but they aren't equal.

Just curious, how's that? I've honestly never heard a case that didn't come from a feminazi. God, I really need to get out of California.

I'd say no. A woman who is traditional simply wouldn't date a foreigner. There will always be a percentage of the population who are simply off limits.

Ah, that's a shame. I guess it makes plenty of sense though!

 

[nahadef]

I can't get into every reason why feminism is still very relevant, but I would be careful using a term like feminazi. I know there are hard extremist feminists, but they are the minority. Men have the power all throughout society, and I think in most cases, if a man and woman were equally qualified for a job, the man is more likely to get it (unless maybe the woman is hot, which is another problem). Women really do need to be far better than a man to leap that discrimination they get. About looks, men judge men on their minds, while they judge women on their looks.

You can look up "Male–female income disparity in the United States" on Wikipedia. I don't know that it's something to legislate, but it is something to be aware of, especially as straight white men. We really do have every opportunity if we apply ourselves, which can't be said for every other group.

To that point, it's as bad as when a straight white guy asks why their isn't a straight pride parade or a white history month. The closest thing to discrimination I've ever received was for being average looking and a little chubby, and that was probably just paranoia. I think it's the same way for most white men.

 

[Tamayo]

I can't get into every reason why feminism is still very relevant, but I would be careful using a term like feminazi.

Eh, I don't see why. It perfectly embodies the plebs I have to deal with day in and day out. Although, it could be that I have to deal with a much different "feminism" than most of the country does, being that I live in California. Here, the term "feminazi" refers to a very specific kind of person, separate from regular old feminists, and most people seem to know exactly the sort of people I'm talking about.

Men have the power all throughout society.

I could list plenty of situations where a woman has an upperhand over men. Are we talking power as in CEO/politically, or in terms of privileges?

...and I think in most cases, if a man and woman were equally qualified for a job, the man is more likely to get it.

Well, yeah, but that's because the probability of losing an employee's full attention and flexibility for their job (which is a lot higher among women who are in relationships) isn't considered when we decide just how "qualified" a person is. Marriage, maternity leave and many other aspects which are most common among women stunt business productivity in an enormous (and unnecessary) way.

You can look up "Male–female income disparity in the United States" on Wikipedia.

It's actually interesting that you'd link that; I wrote an analytical essay about that exact page during my third semester of college, and I actually found that all of the evidence I gathered was quite to the contrary of women being less privileged/paid less.




By the way, just how far along is the women's rights movement in Japan? If my memory serves me, it started up in the 80s and has slowly been gaining momentum, but isn't nearly as widespread or polarizing as it was in the U.S.

 

[caster55]

women's Sales administrator or Sales support assistant
How to serve a tea. it is a kind of Ichigo -ichie tea ceremony before business?



i want to be a full‐time housewife; 32.5%
I want to work 67% most of them are economical reason. like DiNKS
専業主婦になりたい女性は32.5% -「働きたくない」「TV見て過ごしたい」 | マイナビニュース

 

[Tamayo]

i want to be a full‐time housewife; 32.5%
I want to work 67% most of them are economical reason.

Interesting! Could you translate more of the survey if there is more/it relates to this topic? Also, does there happen to be information about how many women participated in it?

 

[caster55]

Interesting! Could you translate more of the survey if there is more/it relates to this topic? Also, does there happen to be information about how many women participated in it?

there are many reasons. most of them want to support husband and kids.
though men want a wife to stay home is less than 20%,
in survey Japanese women want to be a full‐time housewife; 34%. and increasing oppositely,
funny thing is a full‐time housewife is a work which cannot be done even if she would like to do economically.

as for my knowledge, as a second reason ,women quite a Job because bad relation of women world in a company like ohoku(大奥）world


Luis Frois

anyway I think japanese men want a woman to work harder.
and oppositely men want Gender equality in JAPAN more than women
it is simple, it is because men could become easier. I want be a full‐time house-husband


get men off by old women. chikan? no way

 

[Sakuyama82]

Hey everyone.!
I've been reading a lot about gender inequality in Japan, that women are not given equal opportunities in the workplace. Due to traditional Japanese views, women's role in the society are to be housewives while men earn a living. I know gender equality/diversity in the workplace is seen as an important issue, and even PM Shinzo Abe has vowed to elevate women in the society (although with much trouble). I am wondering how bad this issue is from the Japanese' perspectives..?
What do you guys think about gender equality in Japan? May be those who have lived/worked there could give me some insights?
Thanks

A friend of mine was talking to me about this and recently created a bilingual website to help provide some inspiration and encouragement to women, in the face of this problem/social phenomenon (call it what you will). The idea of it is to provide stories of inspirational women in Japan and allow them to act as role models for other young women who may benefit from their stories. Hopefully it might help give you some additional insights.

リアルミー | ～夢を持つ女性を応援します～

There's an article about riarumi on Huffington Post too, but I can't remember the link off-hand. Do a Google search if you're interested to read more.

 

[nahadef]

Thanks a great site! More and more stuff like that is needed in Japan to give women ambition.

 

[nice gaijin]

It seems to me like these "specialty" services targeting women are indeed intended to separate them from their disposable income (which has certainly risen in the past few decades, particularly with single women), but it's sad that she didn't explore what these services to do reinforce the separate and unequal treatment of men and women.

The womens-only cars aren't just a nice service to make women's lives more comfortable, it's because there are freaking predators out there that assault women on the train, and one of the only ways they can feel safe on the train during rush hour is to set aside a special car for women. The woman in the other video yelling at the guy to get off might have been the victim of a chikan, and seeing a guy in the women's only car (which is supposed to be a safe zone) brought back the trauma of that assault. If the guy accidentally got on the wrong car and this was her immediate reaction it would seem she's overreacting, but the video was instead cut to mock her and call her a monkey for getting so upset.

If I were a woman striving for equality, I would focus on building a society that didn't NEED women-only train cars instead of introducing new subtle forms of sexism.

"JR, now with less rape!"

women's Sales administrator or Sales support assistant
How to serve a tea. it is a kind of Ichigo -ichie tea ceremony before business?

what I found really fascinating about this was just how they've taken serving tea (which is traditionally focused on equality among participants) and applied a keen eye to detail to serving tea in a modern business environment. From the way they walk in to how they're supposed to be able to identify the senior kyaku-sama from where they're sitting, the serving of tea has become deeply entwined with the office hierarchy, and it's always women doing the serving.

On a related note, I found this when googling "tea ceremony" and "equality." I skimmed a bit but it looks like an interesting sociological look into the role of the tea ceremony in historical and modern Japanese gender roles.

 

[stevencia]

The problems of the gender inequality in Japan have to be solved.

 

[caster55]

 

[JFL]

I taught a social science class last year with a unit on gender inequality. (My students are second-year university.) After the unit, I did a little informal poll and found that the vast majority of women in my class said that yes, gender inequality exists in Japan, but after you factor in all the trade-offs and pros and cons both ways, the difference is very small and isn't a problem that society should be focusing on right now. Very surprising.

 

[nice gaijin]

I taught a social science class last year with a unit on gender inequality. (My students are second-year university.) After the unit, I did a little informal poll and found that the vast majority of women in my class said that yes, gender inequality exists in Japan, but after you factor in all the trade-offs and pros and cons both ways, the difference is very small and isn't a problem that society should be focusing on right now. Very surprising.

That's interesting, I wonder if the "but it's not really that bad" bit is how they really feel or if it's just meant to soften the "yes, inequality exists" statement that precedes it.

I'd like to know what the pros and cons are, so we can actually do the factoring. Until we have all the puzzle pieces, it's hard to know what picture we're looking at. Like I pointed out earlier in the thread, the existence of "women-only" products is hardly a sign of equality.

 

[JFL]

Just my opinion, but I think my students felt that, by admitting it is a problem, this is somehow an admission that there is something wrong with Japanese culture. On the other hand, we had just spent the last three weeks looking at the problem from several different perspectives, and in so doing, it is almost impossible for an intellectually honest person to say that it's empty nonsense. Hence, "Yes, it exists in our society, but it's no big deal."

 

[nice gaijin]

Good point, I've found a high level of nationalism in Asian cultures where people are really sensitive when it comes to criticizing their country/culture, as if admitting they have a problem is tantamount to treason