Does Japanese Really Need Kanji?

[FrustratedDave]

The more I read your opinion, the more I inclined to feel that maybe you do not speak Japanese well and do not have much vocabulary, and you are not good at learning/remembering kanji, wishing there were no kanji in the language so you would not have to bother.
This is just an impression I got, I do not know if this really is the case. If you are fluent in Japanese and is able to prove why kanji is not necessary, or it is far easier than I think to understand all-kana text, maybe you can explain it in Japanese, using some good examples which are convincing enough.

This is exactly his problem and the fact that he is narcissistic or just a plain stupid. He shows all of these great qualities in most of his other threads.

Sorry I am not as diplomatic as others, but this guy is extremely ignorant to the Japanese culture (based on other threads) and has very little knowledge in regards to the language. Now this would be fine if he did not presume his ideas to be the be all to end all, which is the case 99% of what ever he believes in. Actually , I don't even know why he is even here, he reminds me Maciamo with less education. And at least he listed to others ideas and opinions.

 

[coolio123]

Language is a tool for communication. To convey the right message, and to understand the message correctly, they are the most important things when it comes to using a language. Kanji is necessary because of its efficiency to communicate with ease. It is not about 'not being used to writing/reading without kanji', it is a matter of practicality.

Nonsense. Look up the definition "necessary". Practicality is a different issue at hand. What is practical is not necessary, this much should be obvious. As a native speaker of Mandarin and English, I can tell you, words in conversation in both of those languages have tons of meanings depending on context. It is by the scenario and things leading up to such an event where we distinctively make a decision, because it cannot be otherwise. Conveying the right message comes with years of experience in the language. What do you suppose would happen if in an alternate universe Japanese people used no kanji, for hundreds of years. Are you honestly telling me they would be lost? No. They're are ways to adapt to things in order to become practical.

The Canterbury Tales by Geoffrey Chaucer (written in 14th century) because the language - vocabulary, grammar - changed a lot over centuries

Anyone who went to highschool and took english classes should be able to understand these with ease, with a dictionary every now and then to look up a word that is uncommon, but that would be normal for any book of literature. The grammar would easily be understood.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

If you are not going to read and consider what other people have to say, then you ought not be advancing your own argument and insisting that you are right even when others have brought up careful explanations.

Are you people on drugs?

I am just returning the behavior that began with others. So why don't you direct those words at those who started it? In fact, why don't you read the friggen thread rather than cherry pick my honesty and blame me?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Nonsense. Look up the definition "necessary". Practicality is a different issue at hand. What is practical is not necessary, this much should be obvious.

Going off that logic the written language is not necessary either. We could easily convey our ancestors knowledge by the way the aborigines did ,through folk tails and showing the younger generation how to do something physically.

What do you suppose would happen if in an alternate universe Japanese people used no kanji, for hundreds of years. Are you honestly telling me they would be lost? No. They're are ways to adapt to things in order to become practical.

In an alternate universe where Kanji was not ever part of the language, no , probably not. But , as it stands , if Kanji was yanked from the written system now, the outcome would be very different. And the fact is that we don't live in an alternate universe, so can we focus on the reality at hand. Adaptation is needed in the face of change , good or bad. It is inevitable when change is made and suggesting that the Japanese would adapt is ridiculous, b/c that is a given. But, without Kanji life would become extremely difficult and efficiency would drop markedly and most likely never return the level it is now.

Necessity having several interpretations one of them below,
1. needed to achieve a certain desired effect or result; required. (Farlex Dictionary)
So in the true sense of the word, Kanji is certainly needed to get the desired effect in today's written language and that being to accurately convey to authors intended message with as little miss-interpretation as possible.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

This is exactly his problem and the fact that he is narcissistic or just a plain stupid. He shows all of these great qualities in most of his other threads.

Sorry I am not as diplomatic as others, but this guy is extremely ignorant to the Japanese culture (based on other threads) and has very little knowledge in regards to the language. Now this would be fine if he did not presume his ideas to be the be all to end all, which is the case 99% of what ever he believes in. Actually , I don't even know why he is even here, he reminds me Maciamo with less education. And at least he listed to others ideas and opinions.

Dave, you do realize that there are others here who agree with me right? Have you looked at the poll? Not to say that all in the poll are in total agreement with me since the poll question and what we are discussing is a bit different, but I bet half do agree with me.

Fact is, all the sins you accuse me of are your own. You have to be stupid, ignorant and narcissistic to attack me with such words, making believe I am alone in my opinion.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Anyone who went to highschool and took english classes should be able to understand these with ease, with a dictionary every now and then to look up a word that is uncommon, but that would be normal for any book of literature. The grammar would easily be understood.

Can typical Japanese do the same with kanji books from the same period? I don't think so. What a waste.

 

[letianchen]

Actually I think Japanese high school students study literature in high school so I dont think they would have a problem.

 

[coolio123]

Going off that logic the written language is not necessary either. We could easily convey our ancestors knowledge by the way the aborigines did ,through folk tails and showing the younger generation how to do something physically.

Correct I was pointing out that the OP worded it quite clearly. Whether that was intentional. Or unintentional.

In an alternate universe where Kanji was not ever part of the language, no , probably not. But , as it stands , if Kanji was yanked from the written system now, the outcome would be very different. And the fact is that we don't live in an alternate universe, so can we focus on the reality at hand. Adaptation is needed in the face of change , good or bad. It is inevitable when change is made and suggesting that the Japanese would adapt is ridiculous, b/c that is a given. But, without Kanji life would become extremely difficult and efficiency would drop markedly and most likely never return the level it is now.

Necessity having several interpretations one of them below,
1. needed to achieve a certain desired effect or result; required. (Farlex Dictionary)
So in the true sense of the word, Kanji is certainly needed to get the desired effect in today's written language and that being to accurately convey to authors intended message with as little miss-interpretation as possible.

Correct, though given that this already is a situation that is not plausible in real life I think imagining an alternate universe is not that far fetched in this situation. I agree with you it would cause lots of mayhem, but I think the next Japanese generation kid's would not have a trouble if the school system and the environment was such that kanji was not used.

Actually I think Japanese high school students study literature in high school so I dont think they would have a problem.

I would imagine it would be different. I believe most Japanese literature is exclusively kanji, if not a large portion.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Dave, you do realize that there are others here who agree with me right? Have you looked at the poll? Not to say that all in the poll are in total agreement with me since the poll question and what we are discussing is a bit different, but I bet half do agree with me.

If you think for a second that this poll has any baring on what the actual Japanese population is in agreement with ,then you are more deluded than I thought. There is ,as far I know only one native Japanese who has contributed to this thread and she has clearly stated that Kanji is needed. There have been several movements to abandon Kanji in the past all with the same result that Kanji is needed in the Japanese written language. I would love to see what would happen if a non-English speaking nation was to say a certain aspect of English grammar is not needed in it.

Fact is, all the sins you accuse me of are your own. You have to be stupid, ignorant and narcissistic to attack me with such words, making believe I am alone in my opinion.

Well, considering the fact that I am in agreement with the majority of the Japanese population that Kanji is needed. On top of that you don't even have a basic grasp on the language, so how can you possibly be the judge of what is best? And I am not being supercilious, but who in their right mind would ask the opinion of someone who does not have sound knowledge on the topic at hand?

The current status of the movement to abolish Kanji.
漢字廃止論 - Wikipedia

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Are you people on drugs?

I am just returning the behavior that began with others. So why don't you direct those words at those who started it? In fact, why don't you read the friggen thread rather than cherry pick my honesty and blame me?

I'm not saying other people haven't been rude or failed to read your words, but you just completely ignored the very next line after what you quoted for me where I said that I had carefully read every word you wrote. You also completely ignored the actual on-topic points that I made. If you cannot be bothered to take the discussion seriously and are only going to continue to vent your rage, then please, just stop posting. You're doing no one any favors.

 

[coolio123]

Well, considering the fact that I am in agreement with the majority of the Japanese population that Kanji is needed.

This statistic does not mean anything. As repeatedly in history shows, the majority does not always make the most pragmatic decisions. The reason why the idea of taking out kanji was rejected as an idea is because change is hard for humans in general. Why change when you can stay the same, with something that is not failing? I don't think its to say ideal(my opinion)

 

[eeky]

In practice, when reading aloud to a native speaker from, say, a newspaper or a book, how often is it necessary to further explain a kanji word or compound because, while the kanji is understandable, when it is spoken there are too many homophones, or the word doesn't readily come to mind just from the sound? Is this something that happens a lot, or is it fairly rare? (I'm talking about reading in a proper full context, not pulling out single words. Also, I'm talking about reasonably widely-known words, not tremendously obscure terms of a kind that would need explanation in any language.)

 

[FrustratedDave]

This statistic does not mean anything. As repeatedly in history shows, the majority does not always make the most pragmatic decisions. The reason why the idea of taking out kanji was rejected as an idea is because change is hard for humans in general. Why change when you can stay the same, with something that is not failing? I don't think its to say ideal(my opinion)

I agree completely. However, you do need at each decision of the masses individually on its merits. Sure some decisions made in society can certainly be wrong , but I think you will find the reason for not removing Kanji is b/c the merits far out way the demerits ,not just b/c it was hard. So in this case I think you will find the statistic does actually mean something. Did you read the link I gave.

Here is another link pointing out the basic merits and demerits of Kanji and you do have to look at each merit/demerit and weigh exactly how important they are for making life run smoothing and more efficiently. What I am trying to say is that the amount of merits vs demerits means less than what each actually means for making things easier or harder in everyday life.

漢字のメリット・デメリット


Do you honestly believe removing kanji will make things easier? And if you do, please state your reasons.

 

[coolio123]

I read the wiki link, seems my chinese pays off because I actually understand alot of it, even though not being great at japanese, rather funny I think. On the removing kanji hand, I am going to have to agree with Mark of Zorro on the point of specific things not being open to everyone, and the very slow rescourses like kanji strokes in which it could take you a minute to find one word combo if it is pretty complex. I think either way people would get the picture and should there be a case where it is ambiguous, it would be obvious to the author to use a different word or method to word it in hira/kata, there are obviously severals ways/ words of describing the same thing. I honestly don't think there is alot of benefits to removing kanji, but I honestly don't think, if we had a choice of having it or not, its a benefit. To me its rather these small minuscule things that make the difference.

I can understand both viewpoints. I think rather than saying removing it will be easier I am more "neutral" but slightly favoring toward the no kanji side. I have mixed feelings about the pro's and cons to both arguments but I feel like the without kanji side is a bit more appealing.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

In practice, when reading aloud to a native speaker from, say, a newspaper or a book, how often is it necessary to further explain a kanji word or compound because, while the kanji is understandable, when it is spoken there are too many homophones, or the word doesn't readily come to mind just from the sound? Is this something that happens a lot, or is it fairly rare? (I'm talking about reading in a proper full context, not pulling out single words. Also, I'm talking about reasonably widely-known words, not tremendously obscure terms of a kind that would need explanation in any language.)

I can't say exactly to answer this question in particular, although I feel it would be quite common from my experiences reading the news. But, I've never read the newspaper aloud to someone or had it read aloud to me.

I will note that TV news programs make a habit of throwing up kanji subtitles integrated in the broadcast for key sentences, even though newscasters are selected for excellent, clear pronunciation in a neutral accent, and even though NHK has a separate newscast for the deaf and there are closed caption subtitles for everything being said for anyone who is deaf or has the sound turned off. The only reason I can imagine this is done is to help clarify what is actually being said.

Variety shows also throw up continuous subtitles in flashy colors, and although regional accents and such may be part of the reason there, it's still very powerful disambiguation.

I can understand both viewpoints. I think rather than saying removing it will be easier I am more "neutral" but slightly favoring toward the no kanji side. I have mixed feelings about the pro's and cons to both arguments but I feel like the without kanji side is a bit more appealing.

I'm curious whether you read my discussion of how removing kanji would require the language to change beyond recognition and all past literature would become unreadable to future generations. Have you considered the cultural costs of throwing away all the literature written up until now? This is not a small change, this is a reworking of the language, not quite from the ground up as the bones of grammar would remain intact, but while the foundation would remain the same you're putting a whole new frame and facade to it. It would necessarily be quite unrecognizable after replacing so many thousands of words with words that don't need kanji to distinguish them. (Obviously, the everyday chat that is mostly yamato words anyway, about the weather, etc, wouldn't be particularly affected, but the written language would.)

As for the poll numbers, the people taking the poll are mostly westerners who are at various stages of learning Japanese, many of them at quite early stages. It's not really relevant to anything other than a gauge of the sentiments of participants of this forum.

 

[FinancialWar]

This thread is the reason why all the motivated Japanese language students are all at koohii.com.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I'm not saying other people haven't been rude or failed to read your words, but you just completely ignored the very next line after what you quoted for me where I said that I had carefully read every word you wrote. You also completely ignored the actual on-topic points that I made. If you cannot be bothered to take the discussion seriously and are only going to continue to vent your rage, then please, just stop posting. You're doing no one any favors.

Why don't you direct this at the people who started it? I don't pull this crap until people do it to me.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

If you think for a second that this poll has any baring on what the actual Japanese population is in agreement with ,then you are more deluded than I thought.

You pulled the caveat about the majority of the Japanese population straight out of your wazoo. I said look at the poll. Here, I will pull a Dave. If you think for a second a majority of people answering polls at JREF are Japanese, you are more deluded than I thought.

What I was saying is that you are insulting more people than just myself. Or is it your opinion that we are all idiots if we disagree with you?

On top of that you don't even have a basic grasp on the language, so how can you possibly be the judge of what is best?

ばかやろ！ おまえが俺の日本語能力まったく知らないぞ！ もう黙れあほやろ！しゃべること出来るっと言っているけどそんないっぱい漢字は知らないと自分で認めている。 分かった？ちくしょうやろ！ 十分日本語分かっているから俺の意見はいい。 これはおまえが世界が分らないって言う問題だよ。おまえが論理も理解知っていないって言う問題がある。もう消えろこのしつこいくそったれ！

Well, considering the fact that I am in agreement with the majority of the Japanese population that Kanji is needed.

Its not my fault that you and a great number of people have no hope or imagination or fear change.

As I said before, not many people have thought deeply about this issue.

 

[undrentide]

(Obviously, the everyday chat that is mostly yamato words anyway, about the weather, etc, wouldn't be particularly affected, but the written language would.)

I differ about the spoken language. Even everyday conversation yamato words is less than half - well I have no stats and cannot tell the exact percentage but but I'm very much sure it is not 'mostly'. As for the homonyms in spoken language, most of the time we can understand which word is used from the context, but sometimes we ask each other "which one?" for clarification.
e.g. A: 「きょうちょう」ってどっちの「きょうちょう」？ Which one do you mean by "kyouchou"?
B: きょうりょくする方のきょうちょう（協調）. I mean "kyouchou" for cooperation.
*協調（きょうちょう）cooperation, 強調（きょうちょう）emphasis
Even in speech people often think in kanji without noticing it.

So if kanji is removed from the language, vocabulary will need to be changed drastically, and it does affect speech as well as writing.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

Why don't you direct this at the people who started it? I don't pull this crap until people do it to me.

Because while they may be being rude to you, you are being extremely rude and disrespectful to me. Answering a post where I said I read every word you wrote with 'go read the thread'? You didn't even read a fraction of my post if you missed that I said I had already read everything you wrote, and yet you're telling me to go read the thread?

I didn't 'pull this crap' on you first, but you are still lashing out at me, and I'm asking you to stop lashing out, start reading and considering peoples opinions. Or else stop making posts that are purely a waste of time - they cannot be meaningful responses when by your own admission you aren't reading people's arguments. Repeating 'I'm right' is not debate, you need to read and respond to be debating.

 

[FrustratedDave]

You pulled the caveat about the majority of the Japanese population straight out of your wazoo.

So why is that the 漢字廃止論 has all but stopped? B/c I pulled it out of my wazoo? LOL

I said look at the poll. Here, I will pull a Dave. If you think for a second a majority of people answering polls at JREF are Japanese, you are more deluded than I thought.
What I was saying is that you are insulting more people than just myself. Or is it your opinion that we are all idiots if we disagree with you?

This poll means nothing, one Japanese person posting in the thread with everyone else being foreigners. Yeah, that means a lot. Especially with your Japanese ability. How are you going to be able to know for sure if Kanji is needed or not if you have not truly used it to its full potential? (You admitted that you don't know a lot of Kanji)

ばかやろ！ おまえが俺の日本語能力まったく知らないぞ！ もう黙れあほやろ！しゃべること出来るっと言っているけどそんないっぱい漢字は知らないと自分で認めている。 分かった？ちくしょうやろ！ 十分日本語分かっているから俺の意見はいい。 これはおまえが世界が分らないって言う問題だよ。おまえが論理も理解知っていないって言う問題がある。もう消えろこのしつこいくそったれ！
Its not my fault that you and a great number of people have no hope or imagination or fear change.
As I said before, not many people have thought deeply about this issue.

LOL, Zoro you make laugh. I am siding with the majority of the Japanese population b/c , low and behold, Kanji makes life easier and is needed minimize miss communication.

BTW, your Japanese outburst is strange and is forced. Might want to fix a few of those grammatical errors too.

@SomeCallMeChris , he has always been like this since the first day he got on this forum, that is why I don't care about being rude to him any more.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Might want to fix a few of those grammatical errors too.

You fix 'em troll.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Because while they may be being rude to you, you are being extremely rude and disrespectful to me.

Since you began by criticizing my behavior, it is apparent that you have not been paying attention, and therefore criticized the wrong people's behavior. I don't appreciate it.

 

[FrustratedDave]

You fix 'em troll.

I take it you don't know what you did then? And why did you bother using Kanji in that out burst, I thought you were under the impression that it is not needed? Were you afraid I might misunderstand what insults you were trying to say? Ironic isn't it?

Since you began by criticizing my behavior, it is apparent that you have not been paying attention, and therefore criticized the wrong people's behavior. I don't appreciate it.

No ,he was merely pointing out that he had read your post and posted a rebuttal , but you simply ignored what he had written to suit your own agenda. You are the one who got defensive after he pointed that out to you.

I on the other hand just give back what you dish out.

 

[thomas]

I'm closing this thread for the time being to give all participants a chance to take a deep breath and chill out.