Does Japanese Really Need Kanji?

[Mark of Zorro]

I think kanji, though laborious to learn, is a highly efficient system once you have it down.

I find it massively inefficient either way, although I am not going to hold efficiency up for being everything. The amount of time and energy dedicated to this mish-mash writing system may well be said to have helped make Japan was it is today. After all, if everything common was easy, nobody would be able to anything uncommon and difficult.

But at least reading and writing I think should be easy. I think self-education is a very important thing. (I may be biased in that). But when I was in elementary school I liked to read encyclopedias. It was nice that if I did not understand a word, I could figure the pronunciation and I could just grab a dictionary and did not need to run and ask with each new word.

Yeah, you can point to furigana in manga,but frankly, that just means that adult reading is out of the hands of children, and I think that is deplorable. It means everyone is more regimented by their age and its that much harder for anyone to get ahead of their peers. Of course, again, someone might point out that that is part of what makes Japan what it is today, with all the sameness causing a sort of harmony. But I do not find enforced ignorance to be so wonderful, and I think kanji holds a lot of kids back from gaining knowledge that may be uncommon among their peers, and I think that contributes to the isolationist and exclusionary nature of the Japanese.

I recognize kanji perks, such as being able to read a bit of a Chinese menu. But its just a perk. An even better perk is being able to learn every symbol in an alphabet in mere days and then being able to punch those symbols into a hand held dictionary, know what it is, and actually have a shot at pronouncing it correctly instead of just pointing.

 

[letianchen]

that just means that adult reading is out of the hands of children, and I think that is deplorable.

This is true! I see alot of people posting on 知恵袋 the japanese yahoo answers on how to remember kanji because they find it hard, I don't know if the sole purpose is to simply read a book, but rather for school but it does some like a somewhat crappy system indeed in that aspect. But then the question comes up why do people who can read and write chinese excel in this so well? :?

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

But at least reading and writing I think should be easy. I think self-education is a very important thing. (I may be biased in that). But when I was in elementary school I liked to read encyclopedias. It was nice that if I did not understand a word, I could figure the pronunciation and I could just grab a dictionary and did not need to run and ask with each new word.

I think this is an exaggeration. It is not possible for a 7 year old in an English-speaking country to pick up an advanced law or medical text and read it with anything like full comprehension, even if they could actually sound out the words without looking them up (which they really can't because English spelling especially in academic terms is horribly irregular).
Neither is it impossible for a Japanese or Chinese child to look up words in the dictionary, albeit it might be a two-part process with a character dictionary first, but let's be real - in the modern day you just sketch the character in the handwritten input of a standalone denshi jisho or in the IME of a dictionary on a computer.

In short, the ratio of unknown words to known words is the barrier to the young understanding adult writings, not the method of writing those words.

It is true that a phonetic alphabet can be learned in days compared to a kanji system, however ... that's really only the concern of second language learners. First language learners don't learn to read in a matter of days - being able to recite the alphabet (which for a first language learner usually takes more than a few days to pin down) is not the same as being able to read advanced texts.

 

[nahadef]

It was nice that if I did not understand a word, I could figure the pronunciation and I could just grab a dictionary and did not need to run and ask with each new word.

Japanese don't need to either. It's called a kanji dictionary, and you use it by counting strokes. I used to use it when learning to read. No worse to make kids learn stroke order than to learn the alphabet.

At Leti:, I'm not a fast, fluent reader. I was actually much better five years ago, because I just have no desire to read stuff in Japanese, outside of menus, instructions, that sort of thing.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Japanese don't need to either. It's called a kanji dictionary, and you use it by counting strokes.

Its not that simple. Counting strokes takes time. You can get it wrong. Then if its a two kanji word and you don't know both, you get to do it twice. Then you get to guess which reading is used, and make possibly several passes in a regular dictionary. Its a daunting, time consuming, pain in the *** task. Besides, I learned many many written words by simply sounding it out and realizing I had heard that word before. But with kanji, you still have to look it up!

Its clunky and its inefficient. The only reason I can see why people cannot see that clearly is the same reason so many Americans cling to their guns. Its a fetish.

 

[FrustratedDave]

The Koreans had that very problem switching to Hangul. The "elite" (cough) did not want the masses to be able to read.

You are extremely ignorant if you think this way in regards to the Japanese, considering 99.8% of Japanese can read and write. 識字 - Wikipedia

I think you are being unfair to mark of Zorro. The thread is kanji necessary he is arguing it isn't necessary. Furthermore it doe sent matter if you asked a 100 people. The fact of the matter is they aren't used to reading without kanji so of course they are going to say they cant imagine reading without kanji. How can they say no kanji is better if they are raised in an environment where kanji is so prevalent? I'm also troubled at how you make fun of mark of Zorro by saying these medical professionals are more informed.if anything a japanese learners opinion on this issue is of greater value, as they carry two perspectives.Sure for sure these doctors you know are well versed in kanji more than the average person, but they just aren't used to seeing it without kanji

I really don't care what you think, Mark Of Zoro is extremely ignorant towards the Japanese culture and it goes further back than this thread. However, I do agree with you that Chris is the only one in this thread who has explained why Japan does actually need Kanji.

As for asking people what they think (Japanese in this instance), I do find it very relevant to get their opinion. It is certainly more valid then a bunch of foreigners arguing about something most them don't really have the death of knowledge or cultural experience to make an unbiased opinion.

Frustrated Dave is at least true to his name, a frustrated guy, so it's best to just ignore his need to spat with people.

When dealing with people like you and Mark Of Zoro, can't really blame myself for being frustrated.

However educated your colleagues may be, believe me, I am fully cognizant of the fact that whatever question is asked is filtered through you, and whatever comes back is again filtered through you. You don't even know what this thread is about. Yes, we are talking about what is possible, for crap's sake.

As usual, unable to accept the reality that you are again in over your head. So, why don't you go and ask some Japanese yourself.

Or how about our Japanese members like Undrentide or Toritoribe pitch in, although I already know their answers. How about it guys?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I think this is an exaggeration. It is not possible for a 7 year old in an English-speaking country to pick up an advanced law or medical text and read it with anything like full comprehension,

That is the exaggeration. I said adult reading material, not advanced specialized arcane studies.

Further, elementary school lasts until 12 years old. 7 is just beginning. I think its a problem if a 10 year old cannot pick up a regular encyclopedia and find it halfway readable...or the newspaper.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

But then the question comes up why do people who can read and write chinese excel in this so well?

I often say that Chinese characters fit Chinese like a glove. They fit Japanese like a pair of oven mittens.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

When dealing with people like you and Mark Of Zoro, can't really blame myself for being frustrated.

You cannot spell my name right and you entered this thread calling my posts stupid. No, you don't have me to blame. Pin it on someone else.

You are extremely ignorant if you think this way in regards to the Japanese, considering 99.8% of Japanese can read and write.

Saved by the "if". I am well aware of the "reported" (cough) rate of Japanese literacy. You can believe that if you want to, but I have see far too many adult Japanese struggling with reading and asking others what a kanji is or how to write it to believe it. The problems seem a bit more severe than all the misspellings you see on the internet. And Japanese themselves admit they are losing the ability to write kanji because their computers and cell phones allow them to just select the one they want. How does one forget the 52 block letters to write Engish with? I can understand forgetting the 52 cursive because no one uses it anymore, but the block letters? Nope. Does not happen. Misspellings yeah, but its not like you will be totally misunderstood.

Anyway, my point was the amount of time required just to get started. Medieval peasant people did not have that kind of time. Hardly changes the fact that its time consuming enough that it kept those people illiterate even if modern peasants have more spare time.

FURTHER, Japanese is not pure kanji. Use of kana is very facilitating. It would be different if it were all kanji. And FURTHER, Japanese have taken Chinese kanji and simplified or others altered a lot of them.

It is certainly more valid then a bunch of foreigners arguing about something most them don't really have the death of knowledge or cultural experience to make an unbiased opinion.

I think you meant "depth" not "death" (wonder how that error would play out in kanji!) Oh well, cultural experience is not necessary to the question at hand, unless one mistakenly believes that preserving today's culture is paramount, as if today's culture is not the result of changes in the past.

Nor do I think my depth of knowledge is lacking in a way that precludes me from giving a reasonable answer to the question.

Well, why don't you go and ask some Japanese yourself.

I have. They don't think about it any more seriously than people thought about hiragana when it was invented. You cannot pop quiz these people and expect to get a reasonable answer even if they are native speakers and even if you did manage to ask an unbiased question.

One needs to think on such questions long and hard, and spot their own biases and deal with them. Nobody gets such a question right on the fly except by luck.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Picking up typos on an internet forum and using them as a rebuttal is just reaching. I don't proof read any post I make, I have better things to do with my time.

But, your lack of "depth" of knowledge is glaringly obvious.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Picking up typos on an internet forum and using them as a rebuttal is just reaching. I don't proof read any post I make, I have better things to do with my time.

But, your lack of "depth" of knowledge is glaringly obvious.

Rebuttal does not mean "rub it in your face", and no, I did not do that. I just pointed it out.

But I did understand what you meant. I wonder if it would be the same for a kanji error?

 

[letianchen]

I guess I agree with nahadef, but Mark of zorro brings up good points.

 

[FinancialWar]

I have been considering this for awhile as it's one of the things that has really De-motivated me to learn Japanese. So my question is: does the Japanese language really need kanji? Isn't it good enough to just stick with the kana and Institute spaces or something? I do understand the cultural implications of kanji, but Korea did it when they removed the hanja system from their education. It just makes sense to me that Japan might do this too. Or do Japanese people like the kanji system and find it integral?

Do you really need to learn Japanese? No!

Nah, I don't think Kanji is necessary for if Japanese want to communicate at an ineffective and ugly written way.

You know you got an influential civilization when your arch enemy's language is using it.

 

[FinancialWar]

This will shock the hell out of some people here...but Japanese actually could speak Japanese before there was any writing system at all!

with only 30% of the current vocabulary?

Technically kanji is NOT necessary.

Neither is katakana or hiragana. Just use Latin alphabet and go full Vietnam.

 

[FinancialWar]

I do feel its actual usefulness is questionable.

Rid of Kanji, why stop there? why not rid of Japanese?

I feel the actual usefulness of Japanese is questionable, why not just rid of Japanese altogether and use English as official language of Japan, so that the Japanese kids don't have to learn two languages.

 

[theBrokenMonkey]

I think all languages, and diverse writing, are equally necessary. Of course it would be more convenient if all people spoke the same lanuage, but it would make no sense. A lanuage is a very big part of all cultural, and for those hung up on nationality - all national, identity.
Someone mentioned that the loudest group wanting to put an end to kanji are non-japanese. The argument of it being replacable is just as valid talking about a small language spoken by few people, but most people would never argue that the finnish, swedish, dutch or the indigenous people of new Guinea should give up their languages simply because it would make more sense if they spoke english instead. Taking a language out of it's cultural context is missing out on one of the most important aspects of the language.
In this age of globalization, the prevention of laguages is more important than ever. I suppose this is not easily grasped by native english speakers, but there many languages around the globe that suffer from the younger generations way of integrating english into their native langagues to a level where older people sometimes find it hard to understand them.

To me the japanese should look to protect their language rather than change it even more to meet the lack of interest from the "outside" world. The use of "katakana-words" instead of japanese words bother me a lot more than the complexity of kanji.
I should mention that my ability to read, and write by hand, kanji matches that of a japanese eight hear old, or something like that. I find it almost impossible to learn, but I hope if I stay here long enough some day I may be able to read my own mail.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

That is the exaggeration. I said adult reading material, not advanced specialized arcane studies.

Further, elementary school lasts until 12 years old. 7 is just beginning. I think its a problem if a 10 year old cannot pick up a regular encyclopedia and find it halfway readable...or the newspaper.

Well, if you're just talking about reading up on general subjects in adolescent years, then I don't believe there's a problem in the first place. There's no reason why a 10-12 year old who is interested in the news couldn't get something out of reading the newspaper. Anyone interested in the news will quickly pick up enough reading comprehension from the TV news and the easier news web sites to read a newspaper.

The point of my example was, in any case, to say that there are limits that are quite similar in what the young can pick up and learn from, in any language. That is,

In short, the ratio of unknown words to known words is the barrier to the young understanding adult writings, not the method of writing those words.

As for kanji dictionaries, encylopedias, etc. ... this is all very easy, not hard at all. If you have a decent denshi jisho (and I believe most students do) then you can look up kanji by not only stroke count, but by sketching them, or listing their readings, or listing radicals that appear in them. If you can recognize -anything- about a kanji, in short, you can quickly locate it. If you're reading from the encyclopedia on your denshi jisho, you don't even need to look up kanji in the first place - just jump straight to the word you don't recognize with the jump button. If you've mastered the kana you can (slowly) read any dictionary or encylopedia entry.

If you don't have a denshi jisho, there are still many resources that make looking up words and characters simple on a computer. Let's not pretend that people are still looking up things in antiquated paper dictionaries. The only reason to do that is if you're doing advanced studies and need to use specific dictionaries that aren't available electronically.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

You know you got an influential civilization when your arch enemy's language is using it.

Far more languages have been romanized. Its more like having the only thing available. Plus China and Japan were not enemies at that time.

with only 30% of the current vocabulary?

New vocabulary does not change anything. People still communicate orally just fine. You don't see them yanking out kanji flashcards to be understood in conversation.

Neither is katakana or hiragana. Just use Latin alphabet and go full Vietnam.

It would not be impossible but it would be less practical for Japanese. Since Japanese is based on syllables kana works very well and is more efficient.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

If you don't have a denshi jisho, there are still many resources that make looking up words and characters simple on a computer.

When you need to resort to electronic "brains" and so many other special resources just to learn reading and writing in your own language, I think that is a problem and proof of inefficiency in itself.

You say "Simple! Just a buy a whole shelf of books and electronics just to find out what a kanji is!"

All I needed to read the encyclopedia at 10 was a dictionary, and like I said, even with new words I could sound many out and know what it was, no other resources required. That efficiency is so slamming you all upside the head I again say the only reason some cannot see it is a kanji fetish.

 

[SomeCallMeChris]

You say "Simple! Just a buy a whole shelf of books and electronics just to find out what a kanji is!"

No. I'm saying that people -do- simply buy a single electronic device (denshi jisho = character dictionary, japanese dictionary, je dictionary, ej dictionary, and probably a bunch of specialized dictionaries and TOEIC study materials too) and all for less than the cost of an entire paper encyclopedia, and have enhanced access to that encyclopedia. Personally, I haven't looked up anything in a paper encyclopedia or paper dictionary for years in -any- language. While the two-dictionary issue did make Japanese lookups more tedious than English lookups, electronic dictionaries are vastly more efficient than paper dictionaries in any case.

For people that don't have a denshi jisho of their own, I'm saying, they can simply use their parent's or their school's computers. If you can't afford an encyclopedia yourself, then you're going to the school library anyway so you may as well look up words on the computer. Especially since the school encyclopedia is probably -on- the computer anyway.

This is how people read and study now. Whether or not it -would- be hard for someone to do it all with paper isn't really relevant to anything practical.

 

[FinancialWar]

It would not be impossible but it would be less practical for Japanese. Since Japanese is based on syllables kana works very well and is more efficient.

I would beg to differ.

Romaji works very well in fact, and can greatly reduced the amount of symbols (kana) one has to learn.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I would beg to differ.

Romaji works very well in fact, and can greatly reduced the amount of symbols (kana) one has to learn.

Romaji are similar in number to kana. The number of kanji far outweighs.

There are 52 block letters. There are 46 basic hiragana and 46 basic katakana. I am not counting the double slash and circle variations cause man, its such a minor difference. I bit more learning relative to kanji, 52 compared to 92.

But I also consider the space saved. I saw a sign today like Makomanainobashi. Long. 16 characters. And a mess without spaces. With spaces its Makomanai no bashi. Added two spaces. But hiragana with spaces its. まこまない の ばし. 8 characters and two spaces.

 

[Lestat84]

Do you really need to learn Japanese? No!

Nah, I don't think Kanji is necessary for if Japanese want to communicate at an ineffective and ugly written way.

You know you got an influential civilization when your arch enemy's language is using it.

I asked this question just so i could see how others felt about this. The kanji system will not stop me from learning Japanese. It's just a question I thought others might enjoy debating. That's really all. there is no need for sarcasm as this is merely a discussion topic, nothing more.

 

[FinancialWar]

I asked this question just so i could see how others felt about this. The kanji system will not stop me from learning Japanese. It's just a question I thought others might enjoy debating. That's really all. there is no need for sarcasm as this is merely a discussion topic, nothing more.

no seriously, it's a question i would like to ask you. Is learning Japanese necessary?

 

[FrustratedDave]

Rebuttal does not mean "rub it in your face", and no, I did not do that. I just pointed it out.
But I did understand what you meant. I wonder if it would be the same for a kanji error?

Alright Mark of "Zorro", tell me the meaning of these two sentences. Both have completely different meanings, but I am not going to input the Kanji.

"そのきかんはせいじょうにうごいている。"
"そのきかんはせいじょうにうごいている。"

This cannot happen in English, or I am not aware of a sentence where it has exactly the same grammar ,but have complete different meaning. Another phenomenon that shows your argument is flawed and cannot be applied to the Japanese writing system.

With Kanji written into these sentences, the meaning is instantly apparent.
So tell me what they mean and how you come to that conclusion. But, I am betting you will come up with another excuse not to answer this question.

Now tell me you don't need Kanji.