Is it time for the US to pull out of the Korean peninsula?

[SevenStarsHK2N]

So there is North Korea, and there is south Korea.

One has been built up and sponsored by the world largest economy.

The other has been nerfed and isolated by the worlds largest economy, and all of it's allies (read: the world).

US and 'western' politicians and media often crow about the poverty and conditions in North Korea.

Yet here is a country that couldn't even export batteries to Greece, is politically isolated and has a serious amount of 'hostile' US fire power on it's border.

Is it any wonder that the North Koreans spend such a large portion of their miserable gdp on defence?

It is my opinion that the US forces in South Korea, are not only unnecessary, but actually holding back peace.

North Korea will never invade South Korea.

To do so in this day and age would be a complete disaster for North Korea, and would result in the total destruction of their government within 2 years at most. The end result being a united, democratic unified Korea.

If north Korea managed to occupy the south - how many days till we see the first car bomb in pyongyang?
How long would it take for the tech savvy south koreans to infiltrate the 'north' and relay the leaderships realtime location to waiting US drones and tomahawk launching warships?

What if we gave the North a REAL opportunity to reduce it's defence expenditure?
Allow it to develop proper heavy industry
Give it the means to produce and trade with the world.

It's a sick joke that North korea exists in a state of food poverty when it could so easily create enough food to feed itself and make a healthy profit selling the surpluss to the south.
It's stupid that a country with generally high wages such as Japan cannot make the everybody wins profit profit decision of opening a factory in North Korea.

but none of these things can happen while the US has such a large amount of fire power pointing directly at the North.
Is the North Korean government paranoid?

is it paranoia if they are actually after you?

The Americans tried their very best to wipe communist Korea off the map. And now they station a massive force there. Is it any wonder that they are a little twitchy?

I'm not trying to paint the North gov as a bunch of peace loving hippies or anything, but if you kick a dog everyday - is it really the dogs fault when it bites someone?

The Cold war is over - the US won it's global war on Communism many years ago.

or are they still afraid? - After all, what does it say about the merits of capitalism if 5 years after coming in from the cold the north koreans are able to enjoy a higher standard of living than their "rich" consumerist southern neighbours.
What if people start to ask questions like.

Hang on a minute, in North Korea no one has to buy their home - Houses are homes, not a commodety to be traded for the profits and benefit of the 3 rich elites who own all of the money anyway.

There are many more points to make, but i don't want the OP to be too wordy.

 

[Korra]

You do not know anything, young man. As much as it is a pain to have USA guards trashing our home, we have to keep ourselves safe. You do not know the Korean war. You do not know anything. N.K is wanting the US to go home. So that they can invade S.K.

I am a S.Korean. I know the danger and risks. My friend, do not speak while you do not know what the heck is happening there.

 

[Gee337]

Don't just disregard other people's opinions like that and don't act so cocky just because you have first hand experience. Get off your high horse and do educate us ignorant fools, if your vast knowledge surpasses ours so. "I'm S.Korean, you are not, Thus I know stuff better." is not going to get your point through, even if it could be true. Seriously, I'm interested.

What SevenStars' point is, if I understood correctly: Even if US forced pulled out, N.Korea would still be trashed if they decide to invade the South. Thus, they will not attempt to do so but relations could improve because the US left, and the North wouldn't feel the need to prepare all those "defensive measures".

In my opinion, as long as the North threatens with preempitive strikes, the US won't back off. They aren't just being a "little twitchy", they are making serious threats. And isn't the one-sided withdrawal of the armistice basically saying "we're at war again"? If they just want to be left alone, they sure aren't doing a good job. At the end of the day, it's just poor defenseless people being exposed to danger thanks to a few idiots who are way out of touch with reality.

I just hope the drlls and threats will remain just that: simple drills and threats.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

In my opinion, as long as the North threatens with preempitive strikes, the US won't back off. They aren't just being a "little twitchy", they are making serious threats.

In the face of overwhelming American firepower, that sort of psychological attack is all they have.

7stars has a good point that the continued U.S. presence ensures that tensions remain high. But, I think that is part of the point. The U.S. government and military and certain business too, profit from the situation and don't want it to change.

I am sure that Tamayo will jump in here and demand to read the ticker tape logs from my crystal ball as proof that America wants this situation to continue indefinitely, but of course, I don't have a crystal ball.

But i look at things like joint military exercises conducted right on N.K.'s borders, and I see a very deliberate pattern of antagonization. Those drills could be conducted anywhere, but they tend to do it right in N.K.'s face. And that is NOT a threat? Um...yes it is. And N.K. responds, and then America turns that response into propaganda.

There is no doubt that the Kims and the generals are nuts, but, how long have the North Koreans been starving now? Amazing how long a starving people can survive, isn't it? Umm...something is not right. Yeah, Kim and the generals may be nuts, but we are also nuts for believing all the hype America and the S.K. gov churn out.

I really don't care much about reunification. I just want peace. After that, I would like to see a decent government in N.K. But yes, continued American presence is quite likely one of the biggest stumbling blocks to all that. Its hard to be certain, as I really don't have that crystal ball! But at the very least, I would like the U.S. military and gov to stop antagonizing N.K. Its not necessary to anything good. Up an leaving S.K. could be a step in the right direction for all but those profiting from the tensions.

So I voted "I dont know" but I lean toward yes.

So fellas, is it time to drag out the troll epithet on me yet?

 

[BrianLewis]

One has been built up and sponsored by the world largest economy.

The other has been nerfed and isolated by the worlds largest economy,

Looks like you have already made up your mind, and there is no point in reading past the first 2 lines..

You guys are so buys harping on the lesser of 2 evils that you hope no one mentions the greater one that should not exist in the modern era. All hail the dictatorship that impoverishes their people and threatens their neighbors routinely. Sounds like troll material to me... or is someone just way far off in la-la-land?

 

[Mark of Zorro]

or is someone just way far off in la-la-land?

Maybe so, but you might not guess who.

The existence of North Korea is not in dispute here. It will take much more than the mere presence of American troops in S.K. to correct that, and 60 years is the proof.

All hail the dictatorship that impoverishes their people and threatens their neighbors routinely.

Nor has the U.S. presence enriched the people.

And me oh my! Threatens their neighbors! Yeah, they been belly-aching for 60 years or more.

But hey, the day America has North Korean and Chinese troops amassed along the Mexican border and their war vessels all along the west coast, let's see how America smiles and waves.

 

[Kouhia]

Not yet, later?
North-Korea can attack aganst South-Korea, but they will automaticly lost the battle, they don't have allies as like South-Korea.
North just try to be a big boy, they just waste time and money.
They will not attack agenst South, because it's suicide mission for whole North-Korea, and they know it.

 

[BrianLewis]

No mention of how Russia created the situation with the north? Your going to finger point, yet do only half a job?

 

[Korra]

The reason why N.K wanted to make US pull out of Korea is because they want to invade the South. And don't you know that the US army's trashing by putting harmful chemicals and stuff? Do we want US here? No. One town got really harmed when the US buried chemicals. The water got spoiled.

I don't want US here, you know. Excuse me as I tackle a WC for making a stupid comment in AT wiki about Peebles.

Toodles!

 

[alecgraham]

I think it's time for the U.S. to pull out when South Korea wants the U.S. to pull out.
So, not anytime soon.
I do feel bad about the chemicals.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I think it's time for the U.S. to pull out when South Korea wants the U.S. to pull out.

How about the opinion of the American people's though?

 

[alecgraham]

lol, I see you softened your original reply, Zorro. Thank you for that.
I mean, if there were large-scale protests on a par with that which occurred during the Vietnam war, maybe there would be some influence.
I just don't think geopolitical strategists worry about that. They think about what bases and friendly nations they need or want near Russia, North Korea, etc. Maybe when Japan is again allowed to have an army and not a "defense force" they can replace some U.S. forces in the region, but something tells me the Koreans and the Filipinos aren't excited about the idea of Japanese soldiers either.

In any case, while I'm interested in the American public opinion, I don't think it counts.
My opinion is that my opinion doesn't count: isn't that a self-referential paradox?

 

[Hezam]

Not until things change in N.Korea, The N.Korean regime is a very huge danger to the world peace, It's like a kid with a bomb.
S.Korea could make vote but i'm sure that the majority of S.Koreans will vote for the US military to stay.

 

[SevenStarsHK2N]

Just thought I'd add in here.

That the entire situation as it is now escalating in North Korea, started when the Americans sent 2 B2 stealth bombers towards the border, where they then proceeded to drop "dummy" munitions, in the guise of a "training exercise"

Then the US cries foul when the North puts it's military on alert.

Hypocrites

 

[OoTmaster]

We get to do crazy stuff like that. Just because we have bigger guns and more of them. Not that I support it, it's just the way things work.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

Hypocrites

Totally

U.S. flies stealth bombers over South Korea in warning to North | Reuters

Just in this article alone, you can see the hypocritical choice of words. When North Korea does anything, its a threat. When the U.S. does something, its just a warning.

That the entire situation as it is now escalating in North Korea, started when the Americans sent 2 B2 stealth bombers towards the border, where they then proceeded to drop "dummy" munitions, in the guise of a "training exercise"

Well, they flew them from the U.S. to South Korea, then back again. Can you imagine the outcry if North Korea flew war planes to just outside American airspace, without crossing over, and flew them back to North Korea?

And consider, this is not words. This is actual bombers we are talking about. Actions (and bombers) speak louder than words!

 

[Franck Ledu]

They will not attack agenst South, because it's suicide mission for whole North-Korea, and they know it.

It is not so clear that it is a suicide mission. If you consider this situation like in a chess game, then you are right. But
in reality, once a country is invaded, it is very hard to kick the invader out.

As well, there would be a large number of
casualties (military AND Civilians) and the cost would be very high, not only for south Korea but also for the other
economies because South korea is strongly involved in the world economy.

Since NK holds (whatever kind of) nuclear weapons, attacking them is dangerous. The last nuclear trials must have been
positive (in the Nk view) so that that feel confident.

NK spent 60 years suffering of economic sanctions, they could suffer 60 more years like this easily if they had opened
the southern safe-deposit box.

For these reasons, US won't leave the area. Hoping for a scenario a la "Berlin wall" maybe.

 

[dsvlee]

When you search the map.1st, You can easily find, American's millitary base is for Chinese and Russian.
2nd, when American pull out their power from Asia, South Korea's politics could be more close to Chinese.
3rd, as a Chinese from main land China, I think NK may have a big chance to attack SK after US pulling out. Surely NK's government will destruct quickly, but then Chinese and Russian will make the new government turn into their style, not American and SK.
4th, American use this base restrict Japanese from North. Maybe some one will disagree. But only tens of years ago, America and China were allies. Who knows what will happen in the next 50 yrs?

 

[dsvlee]

Not until things change in N.Korea, The N.Korean regime is a very huge danger to the world peace, It's like a kid with a bomb.
S.Korea could make vote but i'm sure that the majority of S.Koreans will vote for the US military to stay.

Ｙｏｕ ｄｒｅａｍ ｉｔ． ＳＫ ｗｉｌｌ ｎｅｖｅｒ ｖｏｔｅ ｆｏｒ ＵＳ ｓｔａｙｉｎｇ． Ａｎｄ ｅｖｅｎ ｍｏｒｅ Ｋｏｒｅａｎｓ ｗａｎｔ ｔｏ ｕｎｉｔｅ ｗｉｔｈ ＮＫ．

 

[Hezam]

窶噎窶堋鞘?壺?｢ﾂ 窶壺?樞?壺?吮?壺?ｦ窶堋≫?堋債 窶壺?ｰ窶壺?敖．ﾂ 窶嗷窶嗚ﾂ 窶壺?披?壺?ｰ窶塲停?塲陳 窶塲ｽ窶壺?ｦ窶壺?凪?壺?ｦ窶壺?卍 窶壺?凪?堋鞘?壺?昶?壺?ｦﾂ 窶壺??窶堋鞘?壺?卍 窶嗾窶嗷ﾂ 窶壺?懌?壺?昶?堋≫?壺┐窶壺?ｰ窶塲ｽ窶壺?｡ﾂ．ﾂ 窶啻窶塲ｽ窶壺?楪 窶壺?ｦ窶壺?凪?壺?ｦ窶塲ｽﾂ 窶堋坂?堋鞘?壺?吮?壺?ｦﾂ 窶嗚窶堋鞘?壺?吮?壺?ｦ窶堋≫?塲ｽ窶壺?慊 窶壺?披?堋≫?塲ｽ窶壺?敖 窶壺?昶?堋渉 窶壺?｢窶塲ｽ窶壺?ｰ窶壺?昶?壺?ｦﾂ 窶壺?披?壺?ｰ窶壺?昶?塒? 窶嗄窶嗚ﾂ．

Funny because Irani fashist system said same about Syria " The Syrian people want the Assad " ... You know 90% of Syrians are againts the Assad but governments like Irani and N.Korean are same, Both should be wiped out as soon as possible.
Look at South Korea, It's how the United Korea should be not like North Korea, So don't speak in behalf the Koreans.

 

[Hezam]

And by the way, N.Korean gov will not hesitate to Nuke the South, Where is the nationalism in this ? Killing my own people to protect them ! i can see another Assad but a N.Korean version.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

And by the way, N.Korean gov will not hesitate to Nuke the South,

Of course they will hesitate! If they wouldn't hesitate to do that, they would not hesitate do a lot of things. But they do. There are so many ways the North Koreans could have launched attacks in 60 years of no real peace but a mere ceasefire, but they haven't. And the effect of nuking others so close to yourself would be slow suicide. The Norks are crazy, but I don't think they are quite that crazy. Mostly the goal of the leadership is to benefit from tensions. In other words keep their people especially in fear, and pretend to be the only thing averting disaster and the only means of assuring victory. Its the same M.O. of so many leaderships, its just that the Norks don't have much finesse or subtlety doing it. America on the other hand...lots of finesse and subtlety, and Americans are still so paranoid they will bend over instantly for anything so long as its labeled "national security".

 

[Hezam]

I meant IF the US attack the North, The North will use Nuclear weapon on US, South Korea and Japan.

 

[Mark of Zorro]

I meant IF the US attack the North, The North will use Nuclear weapon on US, South Korea and Japan.

I see.

But I don't think they have any means of delivery. In fact, I still have my doubts as to whether they have actually succeeded in making atomic bombs. Even if they have, they are still so primitive, heavy and massive that they could not get them on a missile. And there is no way a plane large enough could get that close to S.K. or Japan. Water and land also seem very unfeasible.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

The North probably WOULD attack S. Korea if the US pulls out. If we keep our troops there, any attempted invasion would immediately engage US troops -- the main deterrent to invasion.

Some of the young people here, with so little experience, seem so firm on their opinions. Well, let me tell you my firm opinion: the US will never abandon S. Korea.

I don't care about political or economic convenience. We are morally bound to defend S. Korea from the North. We made them an implicit, if not express, deal. We told them, "Don't follow the North's example. Don't develop your own nukes, and you'll be under the US umbrella of protection."

We've made that bargain, and the S. Koreans have upheld their part. And it's the same implicit bargain that we made with Japan. If we don't keep our deal with S. Korea, then why should Japan, or any other nation, ever trust the US?

And if the US isn't trusted on these bargains, nuclear weapons will spread like fire around the world.