Just looking to see how well I understand this story.

Angel Valis

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In my Survey of Japanese Literature class, we're reading ごん狐. I would just like to know how I'm doing in understanding the story and I want to get to know some of the nuances of meaning in some of the sentences.

So here are the first four chapters (of 8) of the story along with my (hopefully accurate over literal) translation, along with some questions I have. I'll post the second half of the story after I get some feedback on this.

Any insight you can provide would be welcome. ^_^

よろしくお願い致します。



これは、私が小さい時に、村の茂平というおじいさんか ら聞いたお話です。
This is a story I heard as a child from Mohei, an old man from the village.

昔は、私たちの村の近くの、中山というところに小さな お城があって、中山さまというお殿様が、おられたそう です。
Long ago, in a place near our village called Nakayama, there was a small castle, and ___
[I don't particularly understand the last part of this sentence. I understand 中山さまというお殿様 as "the lord Nakayama-sama", but what does おられたそうです mean here? This seems like humble おる but if you were talking about someone such as a lord, wouldn't you use いらっしゃる? Also, I take it that this is the hearsay そうです?]

その中山から、少し遠い山の中に、「ごん狐」という狐 がいました。
A ___ distance from Nakayama, in a mountain, was a fox named Gon.
[少し遠い seems like an oxymoron, does it mean "far, but not too far"? So maybe a "fair distance"?]

ごんは、一人ぼっちの小狐で、森の中に穴を掘って住ん でいました。
Gon, as a lonely fox cub, dug a hole in the forest and lived there.

そして、夜も昼も、近くの村へ出てきて、いたずらをよ くしました。
And he often went, night and day alike, to the nearby village to play pranks.

ある秋のことでした。
And then, during a certain fall season...

二、三日雨が続いたその間、ごんは、外へ出られなくて 穴の中にしゃがんでいました。
While it rained for a few days, Gon was unable to go out and simply squatted in his hole.

ごんは、村の小さい川まで出て来ました。
Gon went out to the small river near the village.

近くの、すすきには、まだ雨の雫が光っていました。
In the nearby silver grass, the dew still sparkled.

川は、いつもは水が少ないのですが、三日間の雨で、水 が、どっと増えていました。
The river usually had relatively little water. But after 3 days of rain, the water level had risen substantially.

いつもは水に浸かることのない、川の横のすすきが、黄 色い水に倒されて、揉まれています。
The silver grass on the river banks which had never been so soaked before, had fallen into the yellow water and crumpled.

ごんは川の下の方へと、道を歩いていきました。
Gon took the path that led downstream.



ふと見ると、川の中に人がいて、何かやっています。
As he casually glanced around, he noticed someone doing something in the river.

ごんは、見つからないように、静かに草の深い所へよって、そこからのぞいてみました。
So as to not be discovered, Gon quietly ___ into a place where the grass was thick, and peeked out.
[No idea what よって means here. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with movement, since from context it seems he went into and hid in the grass.]

「兵十だな」と、ごんは思いました。
"It's Hyoujuu," thought Gon.

兵十はぼろぼろの黒い着物を着て、腹のところまで水に 入りながら、魚をとるはりきりという、網を使っていま した。
Hyoujuu, wearing his old, worn kimono, stood waist-deep in the river, using a fishing net.

顔の横に、葉が一枚、大きな黒子みたいについていまし た。
On the side of his face was a leaf that looked like a large birthmark.
[I don't understand how についていました affects the meaning of the sentence.]

しばらくすると、兵十は、はりきり網の一番後ろの、袋 のようになったところを、水の中から持ち上げました。
A short time later, Hyoujuu lifted from the water the sack-like portion of the net.
[This is kind of hard to make sound natural in English. What exactly is he doing here? Is this a special kind of net?
Does 一番後ろ automatically refer to the part of the net furthest downstream?]


その中には、根や、草の葉や、小さい木の枝が入ってい ましたが、でも所々、白いものがきらきら光っています 。
Inside, there were roots and leaves and branches, but here and there, white objects sparkled.

それは、太い鰻の腹や、大きな魚の腹でした。
These where the bellies of fat eels and large fish.

兵十は籠の中へ、その鰻や他の魚を、ごみと一緒に投げ 込みました。
Hyoujuu threw the eel and fish, along with the refuse, into a basket.
[Why does he throw the garbage in too? Am I misreading this?]

そして、また、袋を縛って、水の中へ入れました。
And once again, he tied the sack and put it back in the water.
[Why does he tie it up before putting it back in the water? Is this referring to him anchoring the net somehow?]

兵十はそれから、籠を持って川から上がり、籠を草の上 に置いておいて、何かを探しに、川の上の方へ走ってい きました。
And then Hyoujuu took the basket from the water and placed it on the grass; looking for something, he hurried upstream.



兵十がいなくなると、ごんは、ぴょいと草の中から飛び 出して、籠の近くへ走りよりました。
When Hyoujuu was gone, Gon hopped from the grass and rushed over to the basket.

ちょっと、いたずらがしたくなったのです。
He wanted to pay a prank.

ごんは籠の中の魚を出しては、はりきり網のかかってい るところより下の中にぽんぽん投げ込みました。
Gon took the fish from the basket and threw then downstream from the net with a "Plop".
[I understand that はりきり網のかかっているところより下の中に essentially means "downstream from the net so that the fish wouldn't swim back into it, but I'm not exactly sure of the meaning of the individual parts of the phrase and how they fit together.]

どの魚も、「とぼん」と音を出しながら、水の中へ潜り 込みました。
While all of the fish ___ slipped into the water.
[I'm guessing とぼん is onomatopoeia, but why is the sentence structured around 音を出す instead of 言う or 鳴く? Does it reflect that it isn't a sound thatthe fish are actively making?]

一番最後に、太い鰻を取ろうとしましたが、ぬるぬると すべるので、手では取れません。
Finally, he tried to take the eels, but they were slippery and he couldn't take them with his paws.

ごんは我慢出来なくなって、顔を籠の中に入れて、うな ぎの顔を口に入れました。
Gon, unable to keep his cool, put his face in the basket and put the eel's face in his mouth.
[This just sounds so silly]

うなぎは、キュッと言ってごんの首へ巻き付きました。
The eel squeeked and Gon wrapped it around his neck.

すると兵十が、向うから、「うわァどろぼう狐め」と、 叫びました。
And then Hyoujuu called out from the other side of the river, "WAA, Thieving fox!
[Does 向うから indeed refer to the other side of the river? Also, why does he say め after 狐? Is it: 奴 A derogatory suffix (referring to others)?]

ごんは、びっくりして飛び上がりました。
Gon was startled and jumped up.

鰻を捨てて逃げようとしましたが、鰻は、ごんの首に巻 き付いたままに離れません。
He tried to throw away the eel and flee, but he was unable to remove the eel the way it was wrapped around his neck.

ごんはそのまま飛び出して一生懸命に、逃げて行きまし た。
Gon jumped up as he was, and fled for his life.

穴の近くの、木の下で振り返って見ましたが、兵十は追 っては来ませんでした。
Under a tree near his hole, he looked back, but Hyoujuu hadn't followed.

ごんは、ほっとして、うなぎの顔を噛み砕き、はずして 穴の外の、草の葉の上にのせておきました。
Relieved, Gon crunched the face of the eel, removed it from his neck, and put it outside.
[What is the difference between 草 by itself and 草の葉? Also...crunched/bit/crushed the eel's face, this is both kinda gross and kinda funny.]



十日ぐらいたって、ごんが、弥助という人の家の裏を通 りかかりますと、そこの、木の陰で、弥助の妻が、化粧 をしていました。
After about 10 days, As Gon passed by the rear of Yasuke's house, he saw Yasuke's wife putting on makeup from behind a tree.

新兵衛の家の裏を通ると、新兵衛の妻が髪をとかしてい ました。
Passing behind Shinbei's house, he saw Shinbei's wife combing her hair.
[I know it's しんべえ,but in romaji I think bei better reflects the pronunciation.]

ごんは、「ふふん、村に何かあるんだな」と、思いまし た。
Gon thought, "Fu Fu, something's happening in town."

「何だろう、祭かな。
"What is it? A festival?"

祭なら、太鼓や笛の音がしそうなものだ。
"If it was a festival, naturally there would be the sound of flutes and drums."

それにまず、神社に幟が立つはずだが」
"Moreover, there are supposed to be banners flying at the shrine."

こんなことを考えながらやってきますと、いつの間にか 、表に赤い井戸のある、兵十の家の前へ来ました。
As he thought about these things and continued along, he came inadvertently to Hyoujuu's house, to the front of the red well there.

その小さな、こわれそうな家の中には、たくさんの人が 集まっていました。
In the small, worn down house, many people were gathered.

きれいな着物を着た女たちが、表のかまどで火をたいて います。
Women in beautiful kimono were starting a fire in the stove.
[Why is this specifically 表のかもどで? Is the 表 necessary to the meaning?]

大きな鍋の中では、何かぐずぐず煮えていました。
In a large pot, something was slowly cooking.

「ああ、葬式だ」と、ごんは思いました。
"Ahh, a funeral," thought Gon.

「兵十の家のだれが死んだんだろう」
"Someone in Hyoujuu's household has died."
 
おられた is the past passive of おる.

This can be confusing until you get used to it, but using passive form is just one of the forms of being polite. (A student of mine once asked my wife 奥さんはスキーされなすか?, which struck me as funny at the time).

顔の横についていました

The みたいに is separate and the にthat goes with ついていました is the first one in the sentence.

よる has a sense of going out of your way to visit or approach some point off to one side. In this case he was just easing over to thicker grass.

I'd like to help more, but that's way too much to deal with posting from an iPhone.
 
おられた is the past passive of おる.

This can be confusing until you get used to it, but using passive form is just one of the forms of being polite.
I kinda thought it was passive. I'm still pretty confused though since it's a humble verb being used for someone who seems to be a superior (due to being a lord) not in the speakers in-group (which is an assumption). Is there anymore background on this usage that you could enlighten me about?

(A student of mine once asked my wife 奥さんはスキーされなすか?, which struck me as funny at the time).
I don't recognize that sentence ending...is that the negative passive stem + すか?

顔の横についていました

The みたいに is separate and the にthat goes with ついていました is the first one in the sentence.
That actually, in a way, makes the sentence more confusing haha. So this IS について, meaning "concerning"? And it's possible to separate the に from the ついて? What about the いました then? It seems odd here if it's the いる of existence since it seems to be referring to 葉 which, while from a living thing, is from an inanimate object that would normally (if I remember correctly) be referred to with ある. I suppose it could be referring to 顔の横, but that seems odd since that phrase seems to me to be the location of 葉 (obviously, but also linguistically). I feel I'm missing something here.

I'd like to help more, but that's way too much to deal with posting from an iPhone.
Haha, no worries.
ケータイからこの量がすごいと思います。どうもありがとう 。
 
つく "stick to"

The odd ending was a typo.
 
つく "stick to"

Ohh...okay, that makes a lot of sense. I didn't know that word, and Rikaikun didn't pop it up. I should have looked on jisho.org or alc.co.jp. Is that the intransitive form of 付ける? I think ~に付いています would have clued me in that I should at least look for a different word.

The odd ending was a typo.

Haha, I thought that right before I posted, but I figured I would leave it because I'm always seeing new things so I didn't want to assume.
 
Didn't the rest of what I said sort of cover that?
 
ごん狐! That takes me back. I, too, learned it in a Japanese language class(国語) probably in elementary school. A sad, but not just simply sad story...

これは、私が小さい時に、村の茂平というおじいさんから聞いたお話です。
This is a story I heard as a child from Mohei, an old man from the village.
村 refers to the writer's village, thus, Mohei lived in our village.

昔は、私たちの村の近くの、中山というところに小さなお城があって、中山さまというお殿様が、おられたそうです。
Long ago, in a place near our village called Nakayama, there was a small castle, and ___
[I don't particularly understand the last part of this sentence. I understand 中山さまというお殿様 as "the lord Nakayama-sama", but what does おられたそうです mean here? This seems like humble おる but if you were talking about someone such as a lord, wouldn't you use いらっしゃる? Also, I take it that this is the hearsay そうです?]
Yes about そうです.

その中山から、少し遠い山の中に、「ごん狐」という狐がいました。
A ___ distance from Nakayama, in a mountain, was a fox named Gon.
[少し遠い seems like an oxymoron, does it mean "far, but not too far"? So maybe a "fair distance"?]
It literally means "a little far distance from Nakayama".

いつもは水に浸かることのない、川の横のすすきが、黄色い水に倒されて、揉まれています。
The silver grass on the river banks which had never been so soaked before, had fallen into the yellow water and crumpled.
That's not 今まで水に浸かったことのない.

いつもは水に浸かることのないすすき
the silver grass that is usually not soaked

ごんは、見つからないように、静かに草の深い所へよって、そこからのぞいてみました。
So as to not be discovered, Gon quietly ___ into a place where the grass was thick, and peeked out.
[No idea what よって means here. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with movement, since from context it seems he went into and hid in the grass.]
I think よる means more likely 近寄る "to approach~/go to near~" here.

しばらくすると、兵十は、はりきり網の一番後ろの、袋のようになったところを、水の中から持ち上げました。
A short time later, Hyoujuu lifted from the water the sack-like portion of the net.
[This is kind of hard to make sound natural in English. What exactly is he doing here? Is this a special kind of net?
Does 一番後ろ automatically refer to the part of the net furthest downstream?]
Yes, that's right.
2q8snx1gif-1.webp

This is はりきり網. The left end of the net is 一番後ろの、袋のようになったところ.

兵十は籠の中へ、その鰻や他の魚を、ごみと一緒に投げ込みました。
Hyoujuu threw the eel and fish, along with the refuse, into a basket.
[Why does he throw the garbage in too? Am I misreading this?]
He had no time to sort out.

そして、また、袋を縛って、水の中へ入れました。
And once again, he tied the sack and put it back in the water.
[Why does he tie it up before putting it back in the water? Is this referring to him anchoring the net somehow?]
The net is actually a tube, and the end of it is tied up. You untie the net, then you can easily get fishes from the net.

ごんは籠の中の魚を出しては、はりきり網のかかっているところより下の中にぽんぽん投げ込みました。
Gon took the fish from the basket and threw then downstream from the net with a "Plop".
[I understand that はりきり網のかかっているところより下の中に essentially means "downstream from the net so that the fish wouldn't swim back into it, but I'm not exactly sure of the meaning of the individual parts of the phrase and how they fit together.]
出して投げ込みました shows that Gon repeated the action.

どの魚も、「とぼん」と音を出しながら、水の中へ潜り込みました。
While all of the fish ___ slipped into the water.
[I'm guessing とぼん is onomatopoeia, but why is the sentence structured around 音を出す instead of 言う or 鳴く? Does it reflect that it isn't a sound thatthe fish are actively making?]
とぼん is a sound of water, not the one the fish made. (FYI, とぼん is a coined word made by the author 新美南吉. どぼん is usually used.)

すると兵十が、向うから、「うわァどろぼう狐め」と、叫びました。
And then Hyoujuu called out from the other side of the river, "WAA, Thieving fox!
[Does 向うから indeed refer to the other side of the river? Also, why does he say め after 狐? Is it: 奴 A derogatory suffix (referring to others)?]
Probably 向うから just means "from distance". And yes for め. It's almost never written in kanji, though.

ごんは、ほっとして、うなぎの顔を噛み砕き、はずして穴の外の、草の葉の上にのせておきました。
Relieved, Gon crunched the face of the eel, removed it from his neck, and put it outside.
[What is the difference between 草 by itself and 草の葉?

草の葉の上 seems to me to refer to a big/wide grass leaf, not like silver grass.

きれいな着物を着た女たちが、表のかまどで火をたいています。
Women in beautiful kimono were starting a fire in the stove.
[Why is this specifically 表のかもどで? Is the 表 necessary to the meaning?]
I don't think so. 表 wouldn't have a specific meaning here.

「兵十の家のだれが死んだんだろう」
"Someone in Hyoujuu's household has died."
That's だれ死んだんだろう; a question.
 
I kinda thought it was passive. I'm still pretty confused though since it's a humble verb being used for someone who seems to be a superior (due to being a lord) not in the speakers in-group (which is an assumption). Is there anymore background on this usage that you could enlighten me about?
As I understand the breakdown, Orareru and Irassharu are both recognized as correct in modern Japanese as the honorific, not humble (that would be Oru), equivalents of Iru. Which means they do involve an outgroup person and imply being in the presence or the house of a person of high status.
 
Didn't the rest of what I said sort of cover that?
The rest of what you stated appears to be based on a misconception. The passive voice form and the honorific form of a verb may take the same form on the surface as a result but that does not mean you can call the honorific form "the passive voice form". These need to be treated as two entirely different forms.
 
The passive voice form and the honorific form of a verb may take the same form on the surface as a result but that does not mean you can call the honorific form "the passive voice form". These need to be treated as two entirely different forms.
Are they historically different forms that happen to have ended up being said in the same way, or were they originally the same form that then developed in two different directions?
 
Those forms have completely the same etymology. Originally, the auxiliary verb る/らる expresses spontaneous, and other meanings potential, passive and honorific are derived from it. This form is often called "passive form" in Modern Japanese grammar, so it's not incorrect to call it "honorific usage of the passive form".
 
Those forms have completely the same etymology. Originally, the auxiliary verb る/らる expresses spontaneous, and other meanings potential, passive and honorific are derived from it. This form is often called "passive form" in Modern Japanese grammar, so it's not incorrect to call it "honorific usage of the passive form".
Exactly why people should not study Japanese on the internet. The history of Japanese grammar is much more complicated than you seem to want to believe. Major phenomena such as the relocation of the capital 400 years ago and the "creation" of Standard Japanese in the Meiji Era have given the Japanese language unprecedentedly artificial and arbitrary twists compared with other major languages.

I find it highly stressful to discuss matters with someone who sees "passive-voice-ness" in such simple active-voice phrases as "Someone was there." or "Someone lived there."
 
Exactly why people should not study Japanese on the internet. The history of Japanese grammar is much more complicated than you seem to want to believe. Major phenomena such as the relocation of the capital 400 years ago and the "creation" of Standard Japanese in the Meiji Era have given the Japanese language unprecedentedly artificial and arbitrary twists compared with other major languages.

I find it highly stressful to discuss matters with someone who sees "passive-voice-ness" in such simple active-voice phrases as "Someone was there." or "Someone lived there."
In any case, as far as modern usage, the passive honorific form is more masculine sounding and therefore not as formal or polite as the ( おいでになる)/o [masu-base] ni naru process for forming honorifics. Can that be agreed upon ?
 
皆さん、ありがとうございます。

That's not 今まで水に浸かったことのない.
いつもは水に浸かることのないすすき
the silver grass that is usually not soaked

Oddly enough, I never realized that いつも could be used to mean "usually". I've always just used it to mean "always"

I think よる means more likely 近寄る "to approach~/go to near~" here.

I think that よる was a vocabulary word/grammar point for this story...but we learned it almost specifically in compound with 走る; 走り寄る.

出して投げ込みました shows that Gon repeated the action.

Ahh, yes, I knew that part. It was also a grammar point for this story. What I was primarily confused about was the exact meaning and construction of はりきり網のかかっているところより下の中に.

はりきり網のかかっているところ: The net's attachment point?

Also, sometimes I have trouble conceptualizing phrases with より in them in my mind. He was throwing the fish further downstream right? So why is より used here for 下の中 instead of 方が? Is it simply because 下の中 involves "down" or (conceptually) "less"?

To me, I would (in English at the very least) say that he threw them further downstream from the net...and yeah, okay I think I understand now. And I'm leaving my mental process in my post to show that I'm silly.

Essentially, はりきり網のかかっているところより魚を投げたところの方が下の中に。。。 The place he threw the fish was further downstream than where the net was anchored.

That's だれ死んだんだろう; a question.

Ahh, I misread the が as a か. Oops.
 
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For those who are not passionate about the overly fine distinctions of the history of grammar, there is no point in calling the exact same thing by two different names. It looks like passive, it conjugates like passive, and it is sometimes encountered as a polite honorific. For the poor gaijin shlub just trying to get by on the street in this country, that is really all the hell I care about it. I don't give a damn what you call it.
 
Oddly enough, I never realized that いつも could be used to mean "usually". I've always just used it to mean "always"
いつも is the key.

What I was primarily confused about was the exact meaning and construction of はりきり網のかかっているところより下の中に.

はりきり網のかかっているところ: The net's attachment point?
Yes. はりきり網のかかっているところ literally means "the place where the net is set up".

Also, sometimes I have trouble conceptualizing phrases with より in them in my mind. He was throwing the fish further downstream right? So why is より used here for 下の中 instead of 方が? Is it simply because 下の中 involves "down" or (conceptually) "less"?

To me, I would (in English at the very least) say that he threw them further downstream from the net...and yeah, okay I think I understand now. And I'm leaving my mental process in my post to show that I'm silly.

Essentially, はりきり網のかかっているところより魚を投げたところの方が下の中に。。。 The place he threw the fish was further downstream than where the net was anchored.
The original sentence by 新美南吉 is ごんは、びく(=籠)の中の魚をつかみ出しては、はりきりあみのかかっている所より下手の川の中をめがけて、ぽんぽん投げこみました. Does this make more sense?


Exactly why people should not study Japanese on the internet. The history of Japanese grammar is much more complicated than you seem to want to believe. Major phenomena such as the relocation of the capital 400 years ago and the "creation" of Standard Japanese in the Meiji Era have given the Japanese language unprecedentedly artificial and arbitrary twists compared with other major languages.

I find it highly stressful to discuss matters with someone who sees "passive-voice-ness" in such simple active-voice phrases as "Someone was there." or "Someone lived there."
活用形が受身形で意味は尊敬であると指摘されているわけで、動詞のボイスが受動態であると書かれているわけではないのですから、問題はないのでは?事実それらは同形同根なわけですし。
(上記の「指摘されている」と「書かれている」は尊敬でしょうか、受身でしょうか、あるいは両義的で同定不能でしょうか。)
 
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