行 and い the same?
- Thread starter Coffeesan
- Start date
Janet Merai
先輩
- 10 Mar 2007
- 122
- 3
Unless someone with more experience or knowledge can correct me or you, I know い is the same as 行 depending on grammar or usage because it's just furigana.
- 22 Feb 2008
- 18,266
- 4,926
Maybe the OP is talking about the auxiliary verb いく, as in ついていく/ついて行く.
- 8 Aug 2005
- 7,316
- 3,727
い just describes a sound
行 is a kanji that carries a particular meaning. It is sometimes pronounced "い," depending on the context.
行 is a kanji that carries a particular meaning. It is sometimes pronounced "い," depending on the context.
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
Each kana has one and only one associated sound. Their sole purpose is to represent sound.
Each kanji has one or more associated meanings and one or more associated readings.
As you know by now, the set of kana is limited to just exactly the number necessary to transcribe the sounds of the Japanese language. There aren't a whole lot of them. As you have also noticed, the number of kanji is staggering. People can argue about the actual number of kanji or about the number you need in order to get by, but in either case it is abundantly clear that the number of kanji far outstrips the number of kana.....a pretty good clue that simple one-to-one interchangeability is likely not a feature of the blended writing systems.
Kanji were borrowed from Chinese, a language which other than being an Asian language really has nothing in common with Japanese, meaning that jamming the Chinese writing system onto the Japanese language was guaranteed to be a square-peg-into-round-hole proposition.
Different kanji were borrowed from different areas of China (with different dialects) at different times. In cases where there were already native Japanese words to express a concept, all that was needed was a symbol to represent the meaning....the symbol could be read as the native Japanese word (kunyomi). In other cases, it was necessary to also borrow the Chinese reading (onyomi) of the kanji. The sounds of Chinese and Japanese are very different, so the borrowed sounds got modified to fit the sounds of Japanese. Chinese readings are also commonly (though not always) used in the case of words compounded of two or more kanji, including cases where one or more of the kanji when alone may represent a native Japanese word and thus have a native Japanese reading, they also have borrowed Chinese readings for use in compounds. Which reading gets used for any kanji or group of kanji depends entirely on the context in which it is used. (In the study of Japanese you will hear the word "context" until it makes you want to jab icepicks into your ears. The answer to everything about Japanese seems to revolve around context).
Let's take a look at one of my favorite examples, always a sure bet to dispirit anyone contemplating learning to read Japanese:
東
東海
東海運
The first kanji means "East" and is (usually) read ひがし. In the second line, we have added the kanji meaning "Ocean" and usually read as うみ. So that should be ひがしうみ, right? No....it is とうかい. In this combination, we use the onyomi (Chinese readings). Now, I'll tell you that the third kanji in the last line means "transport" and the onyomi is うん. So that should be とうかいうん, or perhaps the beginning reader might mistake it for ひがしうみうん. The actual reading is あづまかいうん and it is a company name. Taken in isolation, there isn't a Japanese person alive who can tell you with complete ontological certitude whether 東 (with no contextual clues) should be read ひがし or あづま. It is an impossible task. Same goes for 大和. Nobody can tell you whether it is だいわ or やまと. Is 八幡 read やはた or is it read はちまん? Same deal....seeing only 大和 or 八幡 in isolation, it is impossible to say for sure.
So back to your question about 行 and い:
If you recall, I earlier mentioned that Japanese verbs have their inflected portions represented by kana, so you can tell what tense the verb is. The portion which conveys the meaning of the verb can be represented by kanji. The concept of "to eat" can be represented visually by 食 and even if you haven't the slightest idea how to read it, you can be damned sure it has something to do with eating. The verb "to eat" in Japanese can be expressed as たべる (among other things, but let's keep it simple for now). We can use kanji to write it as 食べる. That doesn't mean we can read that kanji as た anywhere we see it. For example, 食事 is read しょくじ. So is しょく always associated with the idea of eating? Nope. 職業 is read しょくぎょう and has nothing to do with eating. 十色 is read じゅうしょく and the しょく portion has to do with "color". This is just a roundabout depressing way of making the point that there is no one-to-one correspondence between the sounds of Japanese and the system of representing meanings with kanji. It is a mixed up, messed up, muddled, absolutely impenetrable tangled terror....which actually isn't all that bad once you get used to it. Unfortunately, the majority of foreign learners give up before they start to get a grip on it.
If you have a sentence containing 行きます you may change the 行 for い if you wish. After all, the word is read いきます. All you will have done is to change from a meaning-based symbol to a sound-based symbol. On the other hand, if you see something like だいすき you may not remove the い and replace it with 行, changing it into だ行すき. Nobody would even guess that you meant it is だいすき and would probably read it as だぎょうすき, which is gibberish. Even though it for all the world looks like a totally screwed up writing system, there is method to the madness and you can't just throw things around willy-nilly. You and I share the misfortune of having had to approach this task with the very very large disadvantage of not already knowing the language, which makes attempting to learn to read Japanese text doubly difficult. Native speakers catch a major break on that count.
To further confuse the matter, sometimes 行きます is read ゆきます. With different okurigana it is 行います and read おこないます, with a completely different meaning. Back to our in-isolation-nobody-can-tell examples, if presented with 行っている without context, nobody can tell you for certain if it is いっている or おこなっている. Of course, we can also see that kanji in things like 銀行 （ぎんこう), where it has the reading こう. Or in things like 行列 (ぎょうれつ), where it has the reading ぎょう. You might be tempted to look at those last two and surmise that when in the final position it is read こう, but that would be a mistake. In something like 東京行 it is read とうきょうゆき (Tokyo-bound), sometimes written with き on the end and sometimes without. Ain't Japanese fun! (And do you start to see what I meant when I mentioned earlier that if the prospect of learning the kana seems a daunting task then it might be wise to consider whether learning Japanese is a task you wish to tackle or not? I wasn't being an a-hole; I was merely giving fair warning of what lay ahead).
Each kanji has one or more associated meanings and one or more associated readings.
As you know by now, the set of kana is limited to just exactly the number necessary to transcribe the sounds of the Japanese language. There aren't a whole lot of them. As you have also noticed, the number of kanji is staggering. People can argue about the actual number of kanji or about the number you need in order to get by, but in either case it is abundantly clear that the number of kanji far outstrips the number of kana.....a pretty good clue that simple one-to-one interchangeability is likely not a feature of the blended writing systems.
Kanji were borrowed from Chinese, a language which other than being an Asian language really has nothing in common with Japanese, meaning that jamming the Chinese writing system onto the Japanese language was guaranteed to be a square-peg-into-round-hole proposition.
Different kanji were borrowed from different areas of China (with different dialects) at different times. In cases where there were already native Japanese words to express a concept, all that was needed was a symbol to represent the meaning....the symbol could be read as the native Japanese word (kunyomi). In other cases, it was necessary to also borrow the Chinese reading (onyomi) of the kanji. The sounds of Chinese and Japanese are very different, so the borrowed sounds got modified to fit the sounds of Japanese. Chinese readings are also commonly (though not always) used in the case of words compounded of two or more kanji, including cases where one or more of the kanji when alone may represent a native Japanese word and thus have a native Japanese reading, they also have borrowed Chinese readings for use in compounds. Which reading gets used for any kanji or group of kanji depends entirely on the context in which it is used. (In the study of Japanese you will hear the word "context" until it makes you want to jab icepicks into your ears. The answer to everything about Japanese seems to revolve around context).
Let's take a look at one of my favorite examples, always a sure bet to dispirit anyone contemplating learning to read Japanese:
東
東海
東海運
The first kanji means "East" and is (usually) read ひがし. In the second line, we have added the kanji meaning "Ocean" and usually read as うみ. So that should be ひがしうみ, right? No....it is とうかい. In this combination, we use the onyomi (Chinese readings). Now, I'll tell you that the third kanji in the last line means "transport" and the onyomi is うん. So that should be とうかいうん, or perhaps the beginning reader might mistake it for ひがしうみうん. The actual reading is あづまかいうん and it is a company name. Taken in isolation, there isn't a Japanese person alive who can tell you with complete ontological certitude whether 東 (with no contextual clues) should be read ひがし or あづま. It is an impossible task. Same goes for 大和. Nobody can tell you whether it is だいわ or やまと. Is 八幡 read やはた or is it read はちまん? Same deal....seeing only 大和 or 八幡 in isolation, it is impossible to say for sure.
So back to your question about 行 and い:
If you recall, I earlier mentioned that Japanese verbs have their inflected portions represented by kana, so you can tell what tense the verb is. The portion which conveys the meaning of the verb can be represented by kanji. The concept of "to eat" can be represented visually by 食 and even if you haven't the slightest idea how to read it, you can be damned sure it has something to do with eating. The verb "to eat" in Japanese can be expressed as たべる (among other things, but let's keep it simple for now). We can use kanji to write it as 食べる. That doesn't mean we can read that kanji as た anywhere we see it. For example, 食事 is read しょくじ. So is しょく always associated with the idea of eating? Nope. 職業 is read しょくぎょう and has nothing to do with eating. 十色 is read じゅうしょく and the しょく portion has to do with "color". This is just a roundabout depressing way of making the point that there is no one-to-one correspondence between the sounds of Japanese and the system of representing meanings with kanji. It is a mixed up, messed up, muddled, absolutely impenetrable tangled terror....which actually isn't all that bad once you get used to it. Unfortunately, the majority of foreign learners give up before they start to get a grip on it.
If you have a sentence containing 行きます you may change the 行 for い if you wish. After all, the word is read いきます. All you will have done is to change from a meaning-based symbol to a sound-based symbol. On the other hand, if you see something like だいすき you may not remove the い and replace it with 行, changing it into だ行すき. Nobody would even guess that you meant it is だいすき and would probably read it as だぎょうすき, which is gibberish. Even though it for all the world looks like a totally screwed up writing system, there is method to the madness and you can't just throw things around willy-nilly. You and I share the misfortune of having had to approach this task with the very very large disadvantage of not already knowing the language, which makes attempting to learn to read Japanese text doubly difficult. Native speakers catch a major break on that count.
To further confuse the matter, sometimes 行きます is read ゆきます. With different okurigana it is 行います and read おこないます, with a completely different meaning. Back to our in-isolation-nobody-can-tell examples, if presented with 行っている without context, nobody can tell you for certain if it is いっている or おこなっている. Of course, we can also see that kanji in things like 銀行 （ぎんこう), where it has the reading こう. Or in things like 行列 (ぎょうれつ), where it has the reading ぎょう. You might be tempted to look at those last two and surmise that when in the final position it is read こう, but that would be a mistake. In something like 東京行 it is read とうきょうゆき (Tokyo-bound), sometimes written with き on the end and sometimes without. Ain't Japanese fun! (And do you start to see what I meant when I mentioned earlier that if the prospect of learning the kana seems a daunting task then it might be wise to consider whether learning Japanese is a task you wish to tackle or not? I wasn't being an a-hole; I was merely giving fair warning of what lay ahead).
Glenn
一切皆苦
- 8 Jan 2004
- 7,842
- 200
Also with 行 (you sure picked a good one!) there are words like 行脚, which is read あんぎゃ (あん is a 唐音, or Tang reading), and means for a Buddhist monk to walk around various countries as part of their training, although it also has a secondary meaning of just walking around various areas. Some characters have different readings depending on whether they're in Buddhist terms or more everyday vocabulary.
So, to finish up the readings section, 行 can be read コウ, ギョウ, アン, い-く, ゆ-く, or おこな-う (sometimes おこ-なう), with different meanings. I think probably the only basic character you could have picked that's got more readings would have been 生:
Oh, and wow, Mike Cash! Ha, I guess you wouldn't want to type all that on an iPhone!
So, to finish up the readings section, 行 can be read コウ, ギョウ, アン, い-く, ゆ-く, or おこな-う (sometimes おこ-なう), with different meanings. I think probably the only basic character you could have picked that's got more readings would have been 生:
Oh, and wow, Mike Cash! Ha, I guess you wouldn't want to type all that on an iPhone!
Last edited:
Coffeesan
先輩
- 6 Jul 2011
- 164
- 3
- Thread starter
- #10
I've read everything took me about 15mins not sure how much I've taken in but damn thats complicated... Appreciate the effort Mike that must have taken you bloody ages. Going to keep a note of it all but will need to keep reading it all a few more times + the stuff that Glenn said its hurt my brain.
I think I'll always write 窶堋｢ rather than that Kanji substitute anyway as the rules for when the other thing should be used instead have blown my mind.. Annoying how a single Kanji can have so many meanings like ocean, house, mountain, passion, monkey etc... I know they say its all down to ''context'' but still... I can see why even Japanese speakers get confused by their own Kanji at times.
I think I'll always write 窶堋｢ rather than that Kanji substitute anyway as the rules for when the other thing should be used instead have blown my mind.. Annoying how a single Kanji can have so many meanings like ocean, house, mountain, passion, monkey etc... I know they say its all down to ''context'' but still... I can see why even Japanese speakers get confused by their own Kanji at times.
- 22 Feb 2008
- 18,266
- 4,926
That's simply because you think the kanji individually. 行く（い-く） means "to go" as a set, 行う（おこな-う） means "to do" as a set. Quite simple, isn't it?;-) (Of course there are so many more complicated cases, just like 行っている in Mike-san's post, though.)
Janet Merai
先輩
- 10 Mar 2007
- 122
- 3
I hope I dont come off as a jerk for saying this but...
whenever I am confused about a meaning, I rely on more information to get the full idea :3
For example, a Kanji with multiple meanings can easily be understood with hints and clues :3
If I heard about certain common-day expressions or common knowledge ideas as to what was meant, it's easier to understand it :3
whenever I am confused about a meaning, I rely on more information to get the full idea :3
For example, a Kanji with multiple meanings can easily be understood with hints and clues :3
If I heard about certain common-day expressions or common knowledge ideas as to what was meant, it's easier to understand it :3
Glenn
一切皆苦
- 8 Jan 2004
- 7,842
- 200
A given single character probably has only one main, basic meaning most of the time, with some that branch off from there. 行 happens to have 3 that don't seem all that related: "go", "line/file/row", and "carry out/do". But 帆, for instance, really only means "sail" (although there are two other meanings listed, they're pretty much in line with "sail"), and only has 2 readings (ハン and ほ). My point is that it's not as bad as it seems just looking at 行 and 生.
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
I remember a young American lady in a Japanese class at university who was struggling very much with pronouncing 牛乳 (ぎゅうにゅう). After she had nearly contorted her tongue out by the roots she came to learn that Japanese has also borrowed the word ミルク and happily proclaimed that she would always use ミルク and was more than a little bit angry about having had the tongue-twisting ぎゅうにゅう forced upon her. She wanted to know why on earth she had been bothered with that when there was a much easier alternative.
I explained to her that when she spoke she was free to use ミルク if she so chose, but that she had no control over what others would choose to use. Hence the necessity to learn things for which there are far easier alternatives available.
Learning to read Japanese isn't nearly as bad as it looks, but it really helps to have good structured materials that take you by the hand and lead you through it in a gradual fashion. I think that the advent of the personal computer has actually been a bad thing for kanji learning, in a way. In the bad-ole-days of writing stuff on paper, when we saw someone using kanji we could get some idea of how much learning they had done. Now with cut-n-paste it is impossible to tell anymore. It is impossible to gauge their level of learning and to answer questions accordingly. Computers have also facilitated the phenomenon of people "learning" kanji and thinking they are learning Japanese. Modern electronic conveniences are nice, but I think the best method for learning the writing system is still with an old-fashioned textbook and a lot of practice paper.
Learning to read/write Japanese is something that should be done in conjunction with learning speaking/listening skills. Too many people tend to let the reading skills lag waaaaaay behind. While it may be hard to imagine, reading skills can actually greatly help your listening skills. There are times in conversations when you can hear a brand-new word you've never heard before in your life and, thanks to your kanji study, figure it out on the fly. I have a clear memory of the first time it happened to me. I was standing by as my wife and another Japanese woman were having a conversation and I heard for the first time ever the word ほうせき. From contextual clues I could pick up here and there plus guessing....ほう might be 宝 and せき might be 石, "treasure stone" and might mean "gemstone"....and was very much impressed with myself when my guess turned out to be correct. Such things are not all that uncommon. Naturally, you can do the same sort of thing with unknown vocabulary in text, but with the added advantage of having the kanji right there in front of you.
Coffeesan
先輩
- 6 Jul 2011
- 164
- 3
- Thread starter
- #17
Reading
Writing
Listening
Talking
The 4 big components I would say my main 2 areas are reading and writing. Listening is actually probably the one I do the very least which isn't good really..
I can read a lot more Kanji than I can write even if I don't follow the proper stroke order.. When ever I produce Kanji I always draw them as well I don't write them.. I kinda don't think of them in the same way as A, B or C I just think of them as complicated pictures which I have to draw.
I think most people will agree though listening is the hardest.. Writing I can do myself anytime, reading I can do anytime as well, speaking I do in conjunction with the first 2 and I can do all 3 with books but listening is kinda hard.
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
That very well may be the case, but it is still in use and is common knowledge.
Getting the stroke order exactly right on every kanji every time isn't crucial, but it does help to pay attention to it and make your best effort at it. It does make things a little better as you go along. There is method to the madness of stroke order as well, and a few general rules will cover most situations. More important is that you pay attention to stroke count and be familiar with radicals, as this is essential to the use of kanji dictionaries, should you ever find yourself in need of one.
A universal lament.
- 22 Feb 2008
- 18,266
- 4,926
It is not archaic but just sounds a bit written-wordlike.
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2...1%8F%E3%83%BB/
Thus, both ゆく and いく have been used since the Nara period (the 8th century).
Glenn
一切皆苦
- 8 Jan 2004
- 7,842
- 200
I use podcasts for listening. There are plenty out there, so if you have an MP3 player you should be able to get some to put on there for listening practice. Now conversation is a completely different thing -- there are no Japanese people that I know (of) around me, so that's completely lacking in my case.
- 15 Mar 2002
- 16,758
- 2,298
Like falling into a well and dying of dehydration, if you ask me.
