ん or ン

[Bradsan]

Well guys i was wondering i have a japanese book called lonely planet japanese phrasebooks and sometimes in the book it shows a ん or ン to pronounce it as a M even though i have been taught to say it as a N sound i was thinking do people sometimes pronounce it as a M cause i think its just a typo the N and M are right next to each other so any help guys thanks heaps.

 

[Chidoriashi]

It can be either or, depending on the word, but I would say N is way more common.

One example I can think of where it is can sometimes be an M.. is 新聞 しんぶん you often see it written in romaji as shimbun.

Japanese pronunciation often changes to suit the easiest way something rolls off your tongue, or something like that.. like.. for example the counter for 1000, 千 せん when you get to 3 you say さんぜん、not さんせん。 There is like a million other examples, but basically the story goes pronunciation evolved to accommodate the way people felt most comfortable speaking. Same probably goes for any language.

 

[nice gaijin]

The ん character represents a "moraic nasal," which assimilates the placement of the following consonant. I went into specifics a while back in this post: ...su...ending question? | Japan Forum

The reason for this sound assimilation is, as Chioriashi points out, mainly because it's easier to pronounce that way. When your tongue is already placed in the correct spot for the next sound, the language just flows more easily. The LP book is trying to accommodate this sound change by writing the words more closely to their pronunciation.

 

[Mike Cash]

Before a following B, M, or P pronounce as M.

 

[Glenn]

By the way, this same phenomenon occurs in English too. For instance, the "n" in "kin" and the "n" in "king" are two different sounds. There are instances where it's reflected in the orthography (i.e., spelling) as well, as in "in-logical", "in-reversible", "in-probable", and "in-movable" becoming "illogical", "irreversible", "improbable, and "immovable", respectively.

 

[Bradsan]

Thanks helps guys i will now know when to pronounce the ん or ン as a M sound

 

[Mike Cash]

Thanks helps guys i will now know when to pronounce the ん or ン as a M sound

I once read a little Japanese book on the Imperial family....sort of a little "bathroom book" containing several bits of trivia. Did you know that traditionally when writing the Emperor does not use punctuation?

 

[Glenn]

I didn't, but it doesn't surprise me. Classical Japanese didn't use punctuation either.

 

[Mike Cash]

Then Brad is not only in good company he also has the weight of centuries of tradition behind him. It must be a very reassuring feeling.

 

[Bradsan]

Then Brad is not only in good company he also has the weight of centuries of tradition behind him. It must be a very reassuring feeling.

So are you saying that i dont use punctuation symbols for english or japanese so i do a old japanese tradition because i dont use punctuation symbols

 

[Mike Cash]

So are you saying that i dont use punctuation symbols for english or japanese so i do a old japanese tradition because i dont use punctuation symbols

What I said was about as subtle as a circus poster and it saddens me to think that you failed to pick up on it.

I'm saying your posts come across as streams of gibberish and give the impression to others that there is little point in trying to figure out what the hell you're saying and provide you with an answer as there is room to wonder if you possess the intelligence to benefit from it.

No matter how intelligent you may or may not be, we have no way of knowing other than the way you present yourself....and you present yourself as being marginally more intelligent than a box of hammers. It shows a lack of respect for yourself and a lack of regard for those who endeavor to read your borderline aphasic spew.

Tony Bryant said it in a more civil manner on another forum:

When you write, please write with proper capitalization, punctuation, grammar, and syntax. In short, like a literate adult instead of a text-messaging chimpanzee.

Not everyone here is a native speaker of English, and it would help to make your posts as clear as possible. In addition, it shows a modicum of respect. If you don't respect us enough to take the time write like an educated adult, why should we take the time to respond to you?

Nobody expects you to be perfect, but we would appreciate some degree of effort other than "ZERO". Nobody ever died from the strain of reaching for the shift key or learning where the punctuation keys are.

 

[Bradsan]

What I said was about as subtle as a circus poster and it saddens me to think that you failed to pick up on it.

I'm saying your posts come across as streams of gibberish and give the impression to others that there is little point in trying to figure out what the hell you're saying and provide you with an answer as there is room to wonder if you possess the intelligence to benefit from it.

No matter how intelligent you may or may not be, we have no way of knowing other than the way you present yourself....and you present yourself as being marginally more intelligent than a box of hammers. It shows a lack of respect for yourself and a lack of regard for those who endeavor to read your borderline aphasic spew.

Tony Bryant said it in a more civil manner on another forum:


Nobody expects you to be perfect, but we would appreciate some degree of effort other than "ZERO". Nobody ever died from the strain of reaching for the shift key or learning where the punctuation keys are.

Oh Don't worry i knew you were being sarcastic to me, when im on the internet i sometimes don't bother to write punctuation symbols because a lot of people on the internet write like this, that's why i write like this so i hope im making sense to you right now but know you have made me go off topic just like you did here
German wants to teach Engrish without a university degree :(
it seems to tick people off im not going to say sorry to you or anyone because i don't need to, this sort of thing shouldn't offend anyone and if it doe's offend someone it is sad there is more thing's in this world to get offended by then this.

 

[Mike Cash]

You don't offend me. What you do is make yourself look like a m*ron and discourage intelligent and knowledgable people from interacting with you.

Water seeks its own level. Look around in threads containing intelligent discussion. Do you notice anyone else posting like retarded three year olds? Have you seen a useful and informed answer from anyone who writes like you do? What happens is that the blissfully ignorant wander off to the anime or some other such section and blather amongst themselves while the adults (who have the answers to your questions) congregate to ourselves for intelligent discourse.

If you're content to present yourself as a m*ron then don't be surprised when the adults treat you like a m*ron and either ignore you or ridicule you.

 

[undrentide]

You don't offend me. What you do is make yourself look like a m*ron and discourage intelligent and knowledgable people from interacting with you.

Water seeks its own level. Look around in threads containing intelligent discussion. Do you notice anyone else posting like retarded three year olds? Have you seen a useful and informed answer from anyone who writes like you do? What happens is that the blissfully ignorant wander off to the anime or some other such section and blather amongst themselves while the adults (who have the answers to your questions) congregate to ourselves for intelligent discourse.

If you're content to present yourself as a m*ron then don't be surprised when the adults treat you like a m*ron and either ignore you or ridicule you.

Amnotsureiftheheavyhintsyou'vebeendroppingwithabigthudareevennoticed...

 

[epigene]

Amnotsureiftheheavyhintsyou'vebeendroppingwithabigthudareevennoticed...

I keep looking for the ubiquitous "Like" and " イイネ！ " button...

I've become an FB and mixi addict!!

 

[Bradsan]

You don't offend me. What you do is make yourself look like a m*ron and discourage intelligent and knowledgable people from interacting with you.
Water seeks its own level. Look around in threads containing intelligent discussion. Do you notice anyone else posting like retarded three year olds? Have you seen a useful and informed answer from anyone who writes like you do? What happens is that the blissfully ignorant wander off to the anime or some other such section and blather amongst themselves while the adults (who have the answers to your questions) congregate to ourselves for intelligent discourse.
If you're content to present yourself as a m*ron then don't be surprised when the adults treat you like a m*ron and either ignore you or ridicule you.

This is off topic now,i will make sure to write as many punctuation symbols as i can to make the world happy yayyyy.

 

[CatDad]

Got this off a website:

Also, consonants can also change in sound by the sounds following it. For example, this character "ん" is pronounced as an English "n" sound. However, whenever an n, t, d, s, and z sound follow after the ん sound, the "n" becomes an "m" sound. Lets look at the word さんぽ. This word is pronounced as "sampo." Notice that the "po" sound or the ぽ that follows after the ん sound turns the "n" sound into an "m" sound. Since the "n" sound and "m" sound so similar when Japanese speakers use them in their daily speech, you'll be understood whether you say "sampo" or "sanpo."

 

[Mike Cash]

However, whenever an n, t, d, s, and z sound follow after the ん sound, the "n" becomes an "m" sound.

So I should pronounce 残念 as "zamnen", 反転 as "hamten", 半田 as "Hamda", 検査 as "kemsa" and 三千 as "samzen"?

That's nice to know.

 

[Glenn]

It's funny, too, that the example they immediately give includes none of those sounds. You'd think that may have tipped them off.

 

[CatDad]

snip

Yeah, I commented on the site about how the example didn't mesh with the explanation. Still waiting for a reply...

I knew the explanation was kinda bunk, but I thought maybe there were certain cases where it was true. I'll take it from your responses that the explanation given on that site was awful.

 

[Mike Cash]

Yeah, I commented on the site about how the example didn't mesh with the explanation. Still waiting for a reply...

I knew the explanation was kinda bunk, but I thought maybe there were certain cases where it was true. I'll take it from your responses that the explanation given on that site was awful.

It was worse than awful; it was wrong. Laughably so. If I didn't hate emoticons my reply to that explanation would have been filled with lots of buffoonishly guffawing cartoon faces. The biggest problem with Japanese language advice online is that so much of it comes from well-intentioned yet clueless beginners burning up with zeal and eager to figuratively reinvent the wheel for the umpteenth time by setting up a site where they can pass on their great font of knowledge to others. There are good and reliable sources out there, no doubt, but how is the newcomer to the language to separate the wheat from the chaff? The end result is a lot of rubbish getting passed around and a lot of people "learning" crap that they're going to have to unlearn later on.