How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Elizabeth]

ざっき --?
さっき(some time ago, short while)

 

[Putrefaction]

Ah, that's what I meant to put! I forgot so much in a short period of time!

I'll have to review the past page, hopefully on Friday.

But have any of you read any good, decent Japanese books? I'm looking from elementary until high school...anything, really.

 

[Putrefaction]

I also have another question...

For the life of me, I just can't "understand" these. I can understand the first one's overall, but it just doesn't make sense to me. If I say it out loud to myself it's just ununderstandable.

The second one, the red line, is that "hair looks like Bob Marley"?

 

[nekojita]

For books, something like YA fiction can be a good starting point. e.g. I've read 「おかしな訪問者」 by 宗田 理, which is about a boy who lives alone with his father until a mysterious old lady turns up claiming to be his grandma.

http://www.bokura.com/novel-st/hou/hou.htm
- there's actually some extracts here. (ぼくら is a series by the same author), although minus the furigana present in the book.

For the first one, the translation is rather loose. Split it as:
「みんなで」「世界をよくしましょう」
みんなで = together, with everyone. Who "everyone" is exactly depends on context, e.g.
みんなで映画を見に行った (クラスのみんな, 家族のみんな)
「世界をよくしましょう」 = is it the よくする part that's confusing?

ボブ・マーリーみたい is simply "like Bob Marley" (e.g. "I want to have hair like Bob Marley's").

 

[Elizabeth]

I also have another question...

For the life of me, I just can't "understand" these. I can understand the first one's overall, but it just doesn't make sense to me. If I say it out loud to myself it's just ununderstandable.

The second one, the red line, is that "hair looks like Bob Marley"?

It doesn't make sense to me either. .

Maybe you can come up with a better translation than the online translators, if you know where the problems are ??

 

[Putrefaction]

「世界をよくしましょう」 = is it the よくする part that's confusing?

ボブ・マーリーみたい is simply "like Bob Marley" (e.g. "I want to have hair like Bob Marley's").

Well, I'm learning the adjective+suru to "make something [adjective]". I know that いい->よく so よくする is 'to make good'. The ましょう at the end messes me up, or the general structure alltogether. The more I repeat it the more it makes sense, but it's really, really loose.

As for the second one, I translated it as literal: "hair bob marley looks like to do want" -> i want to have hair like bob marley's. Once again I can understand it, but it takes a lot of repetition. If either of these were said to me, I would not understand them at all.

And Elizabeth, er, these are from my Genki book. All the other examples I understood, these are the ones that are standing out.

ーー

お風呂に入っている間に「I like ..., but [someone] doesn't like IT.」の言い方はどうですか？

This was my first attempt:
私は雪が好きですでもお母さんは雪が好きではありません。

これに，「雪」を二回言いました。
So in this, I repeated snow twice. I know there has to be a more natural way of putting it, but my attempts in my head resulted in two things:


私は雪が好きですでもお母さんが好きではありません。<- I like snow, but I do not like my mother.
私は雪が好きですでもお母さんはのが好きではありません。<- I think it is this one. I like snow, but my mother does not like [what was previously mentioned, snow].

 

[epigene]

I also have another question...

For the life of me, I just can't "understand" these. I can understand the first one's overall, but it just doesn't make sense to me. If I say it out loud to myself it's just ununderstandable.

The second one, the red line, is that "hair looks like Bob Marley"?

I don't see anything wrong with the two sentences.

As nekojita pointed out, I think you need to break them down.
みんなで (literally, with everyone)
世界を
よくしましょう（よくする：make something good or better)
Let us make the world better (with everyone; together)

髪を
ボブー・マーリーみたいに
したいです。
I want my hair [done] like Bob Marley's.

(No improvement from nekojita's... )

お風呂に入っている間に「I like ..., but [someone] doesn't like IT.」の言い方はどうですか？

This was my first attempt:
私は雪が好きですでもお母さんは雪が好きではありません。

これに，「雪」を二回言いました。
So in this, I repeated snow twice. I know there has to be a more natural way of putting it, but my attempts in my head resulted in two things:


私は雪が好きですでもお母さんが好きではありません。<- I like snow, but I do not like my mother.
私は雪が好きですでもお母さんはのが好きではありません。<- I think it is this one. I like snow, but my mother does not like [what was previously mentioned, snow].

You need to make it into two sentences.
私は雪が好きです。でもお母さんは好きではありません。
In a simple comparison like this, use the same topic marker.
You might think this might be interpreted as *I like snow, but I don't like my mother." But, Japanese is context-driven, and this is understood as "I like snow, but my mother doesn't like it."
Another thing about your sentence, if you're talking about your own mother, you don't refer to her as お母さん to a third party. お母さん is used only when you are speaking to her and address her as "Mother" or "Mom." When speaking to a 3rd party, your mother is 母 or 私の母 .

 

[Elizabeth]

And Elizabeth, er, these are from my Genki book. All the other examples I understood, these are the ones that are standing out.

Oh, I see. It is unusual and confusing in my experience...but then I would say something more like "Let's pull together and do good in the world/do the world good."

 

[Putrefaction]

早く返事！

Eh, I guess with enough practice in the workbook and such, I should be able to figure them out. I mean, like I said, reading wise I can understand it after one or two times, it's just not sinking in like the other sentences, especially the second one. 先生にありがとうございます！

You need to make it into two sentences.
私は雪が好きです。でもお母さんは好きではありません。
In a simple comparison like this, use the same topic marker.
You might think this might be interpreted as *I like snow, but I don't like my mother." But, Japanese is context-driven, and this is understood as "I like snow, but my mother doesn't like it."

Ohh, that's how you do it! That makes sense. If I may just do one more, to make sure I concrete it.

Another thing about your sentence, if you're talking about your own mother, you don't refer to her as お母さん to a third party. お母さん is used only when you are speaking to her and address her as "Mother" or "Mom." When speaking to a 3rd party, your mother is 母 or 私の母 .

I see, so this time, I will use father in this one.

私は休みに中国に行きました。中国の食べ物が好きでした。でも，ちち（父）葉好きではありませんでした。

I was also going to actually say, 食べ物やが好きでした but I'm not sure that would work. I was also going to try to implement a verb into it, like 中国で見ものを見に行くのが好きでした，食べ物が好きでした but I'm also sure that's wrong (I liked going to see China's sights, the food).

Left rep, btw.

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't see anything wrong with the two sentences.

As nekojita pointed out, I think you need to break them down.
みんなで (literally, with everyone)
世界を
よくしましょう（よくする：make something good or better)
Let us make the world better (with everyone; together)

It is reasonable but sounded as rare to me as "Let's improve the world together" in English. For some reason, I would say 世界を(より)良く変えましょう....(How I've already heard it). :sorry:


世界を(より)よくしたい Of course, よくする is fine for an individual desire or accomplishment.

 

[Putrefaction]

Yeah. I mean, if I break them down I understand it, but like I said, if I heard it, I would not understand it at all. Just my little brain.

Now that I completed Chapters 22 and 23 briefly, it's refreshing to know more and more of my thoughts can be expressed, albeit very wrong-ly.

 

[Elizabeth]

It's an extended form of "suru" that should be used when you are "doing" something" or "making" things happen.


Adverb form of I-adjective + suru

 

[Putrefaction]

Right, like 冷たくする would be, "make it cold" or 易しくしてください is "please make it easier".

The -na adjectives are also pretty easy. 静かにします！Of course, not to anyone, just in general.

 

[Toritoribe]

OK, here's some tips.

窶伉≫?堋ｭ窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶督！

It should be 窶伉ーCOLOR="Red"]窶堋｢[/COLOR]窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶 generally with the modifier for 窶伉≫?堋｢(e.g. 窶堋ｷ窶堋ｲ窶堋ｭ, 窶堙遺?堙ｱ窶堙? 窶堙??堙??堙?), because 窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶 is a noun in this case. 窶伉≫?堋ｭ is the adverbial form, so 窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶 in 窶伉≫?堋ｭ窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶 is interpreted as a form of the verb 窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶凪?堋ｷ窶堙ｩ, not a noun. In other words, 窶伉≫?堋ｭ窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶 sounds like 窶伉≫?堋ｭ窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶凪?堋ｵ窶堙?窶堋ｵ窶堙ｫ. It's similar to "(what a) quick answer" vs "(please) answer quickly" in English.

ﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堙俄?堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！

ﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ
窶堙 isn't needed.

窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙個食窶堙冷?｢ﾂｨ窶堋ｪﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

ﾂ好窶堋ｫ expresses a state, so ﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ generally suggests that now is NOT in the state or ﾂ債｡窶堙債好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堙坂?堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ. Thus, ﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ is often used as the meaning of ﾂ債｡窶堙最停┐窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ, as same as ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ often connotes ﾂ債｡窶堙最停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ.
How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

ﾂ食窶堙冷?｢ﾂｨ窶堋ｪ窶堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷ would be appropriate for the context. (窶吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙 is repetitive here.)

 

[Putrefaction]

You're right, I should have remembered that.

I also re-read that post you linked, I'll have to read Elizabeth's in depth as well. I remember asking you something similar, if ﾂ好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽ meant liking something in the past tense vs now, but I should've remembered that too.

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｹx窶堙昶?堙俄?吮??ﾂ坂?倪?堙可行窶堋ｫ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ食窶堙冷?｢ﾂｨ窶堋ｪ窶堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｷﾂ。窶堙??堙?ﾂ，窶｢ﾆ停?堙坂?堋ｨ窶堋｢窶堋ｵ窶堋ｭ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙?陳ｾ窶堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。ﾂ（窶｢ﾆ停?堙債好窶堋ｫ窶堙??堙坂?堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ？ﾂ）

Does this make more sense, I tried to read it twice over. For my vacation, I went to China. The food was delicious, but my dad didn't like it. I didn't know how to say


----

窶堋｢窶堙や?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙纂/COLOR]窶堋｢窶堋｢窶堋ｩ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ

I'm reading this post from Toritoribe on the previous page, I just ran into that in Genki, does that mean "if"?

Like in this sentence, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the ending.

After 窶堋?窶堙遺?堋ｽ it becomes a bit fuzzy. I see that the ﾂ行窶堋ｩ窶堋ｹ窶堙 means "make/let someone go", and with 窶堋?窶堋ｰ窶堙ｩ it becomes let, so...we want to let you go to a good college? Similar for the last sentence, ﾂ行窶堋ｩ窶堋ｹ窶堙??堋ｭ窶堙ｪ窶堙遺?堋ｩ窶堙≫?堋ｽ. Not allowed to go to a good college? Perhaps I'm interpreting these too literally.

 

[Putrefaction]

Or, how about this sentence?

今朝の太陽は夏の太陽のように明るかったのに，降られてしまいました。
Today morning, the sun was like the summer's sun, yet it still rained.

 

[epigene]

私は休みに中国に行きました。食べ物がおいしかったです。でも，父はおいしくなかったと言っていました。（父は好きではありませんでした？）

Does this make more sense, I tried to read it twice over. For my vacation, I went to China. The food was delicious, but my dad didn't like it. I didn't know how to say

Yes, it makes sense, and both are correct.

いつ日本語を勉強すればいいかわかりません

I'm reading this post from Toritoribe on the previous page, I just ran into that in Genki, does that mean "if"?

It is hypothetical form, I guess, since it means "I don't know when I should study."

Like in this sentence, I'm just having a bit of trouble with the ending.

After あなた it becomes a bit fuzzy. I see that the 行かせて means "make/let someone go", and with あげる it becomes let, so...we want to let you go to a good college? Similar for the last sentence, 行かせてくれなかった. Not allowed to go to a good college? Perhaps I'm interpreting these too literally.

You're on the right track. The first one you understood correctly. The second means "[I, meaning the mother] wasn't allowed to go to college because my family was poor.

Or, how about this sentence?

今朝の太陽は夏の太陽のように明るかったのに，降られてしまいました。
Today morning, the sun was like the summer's sun, yet it still rained.

You understood it correctly.

 

[Putrefaction]

ああ，返事を書いてありがとうございます！

I'm glad I understood it correctly. 私は二つの例を書いたから。I combined all the things I learned in that section into one sentence! I also have another question about the すれば。I just finished that section of the chapter and it means "if A then B, good outcome"?

いつ日本語を勉強すればいいかわかりません

Lit: when japanese study if good don't know
When is a good time to study Japanese, I don't know.

Well, I guess it makes sense.

Er, very quickly, is this also correct?

私の部屋は教室のようにブラックボードがあります。(my room has a blackboard like a classroom)
私は教室のような部屋があります。(I have a classroom-like room)
日本人が家具を使うのように私も同じ家具で部屋を掃除する。

 

[epigene]

窶堋?窶堋?ﾂ，窶｢ﾃ版ｽ窶凪?堙ｰﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堙??堋?窶堙ｨ窶堋ｪ窶堙??堋､窶堋ｲ窶堋ｴ窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ！

I'm glad I understood it correctly. ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?愿ｱ窶堙や?堙娯?氾｡窶堙ｰﾂ鞘?倪?堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧﾂ。I combined all the things I learned in that section into one sentence! I also have another question about the 窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙篠。I just finished that section of the chapter and it means "if A then B, good outcome"?

窶堋｢窶堙や?愿ｺ窶怒ﾅ津ｪ窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙寂?堋｢窶堋｢窶堋ｩ窶堙ｭ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ

Lit: when japanese study if good don't know
When is a good time to study Japanese, I don't know.

Well, I guess it makes sense.

Er, very quickly, is this also correct?

Yes, you're correct!

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?｢窶昶?ｰﾂｮ窶堙坂?ｹﾂｳﾅｽﾂｺ窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙家置ﾆ停?ｰﾆ鍛ﾆ誰ﾆ畜ﾂーﾆ檀窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。(my room has a blackboard like a classroom)

My room has... may be OK in English, but Japanese requires the location marker 窶堙
ﾅｽ窶樞?堙娯?｢窶昶?ｰﾂｮ窶堙閏/COLOR]窶堙坂?ｹﾂｳﾅｽﾂｺ窶堙俄?堋?窶堙ｩ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙?/COLOR]ﾂ坂?｢窶敕?/COLOR]窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙 is used as comparative form for nouns (blackboard, called "kokuban" in Japanese)

ﾅｽ窶樞?堙坂?ｹﾂｳﾅｽﾂｺ窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙遺?｢窶昶?ｰﾂｮ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。(I have a classroom-like room)

Again, "I have a classroom-like room" may be OK in English, but not so in Japanese. Your sentence will be understood that you have such a room in your body.
If it's your house that has such a room, then:
窶堋､窶堋ｿ窶堙閏/COLOR]窶堙坂?ｹﾂｳﾅｽﾂｺ窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙遺?｢窶昶?ｰﾂｮ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。
Again, you have to mark the location of the room.

窶愿ｺ窶怒ﾂ人窶堋ｪ窶ｰﾃ??ｹﾃｯ窶堙ｰﾅｽg窶堋､窶堙娯?堙ｦ窶堋､窶堙嫁ｽ窶樞?堙?窶慊ｯ窶堋ｶ窶ｰﾃ??ｹﾃｯ窶堙??｢窶昶?ｰﾂｮ窶堙ｰ窶?ﾂ焦凪?堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾂ。

This one I can't understand. I think you made a word choice error? 窶ｰﾃ??ｹﾃｯ means furniture.

 

[Putrefaction]

Ah, I haven't done ある in that form yet. I was just trying to come up with more examples because that part of the chapter is very hard for me.

私の部屋には教室にあるような黒板があります。
Lit: my's room [location marker, subject marker] classroom has compare, similar to blackboard has?
I don't understand.

The second sentence is understandable, I can see what I did.
公園には森林のようにたくさん木があります。
Lit: park [location, subject marker] forest compare, similar to lot of trees has?

Does this make sense? Or if I were to try ある: 森林にはたくさん木にあるようなところです。I just made it up.

And yeah, I messed up on the last one. I meant to put cleaning items, but I don't know how to say it. If we temporarily made 家具 the word for cleaning item in this sentence, does it work? If you have any のような or のように sentences, either in English or Japanese, I'd love to try them, I finished the ones in the book, they are really difficult. ありがとうございます。

 

[epigene]

私の部屋には教室にあるような黒板があります。
Lit: my's room [location marker, subject marker] classroom has compare, similar to blackboard has?
I don't understand.

教室にあるような黒板： Blackboard like [the one] found in a classroom

The second sentence is understandable, I can see what I did.
公園には森林のようにたくさん木があります。
Lit: park [location, subject marker] forest compare, similar to lot of trees has?

Does this make sense? Or if I were to try ある: 森林にはたくさん木にあるようなところです。I just made it up.

Yes.
公園には森林のようにたくさん木があります makes sense.
It means "there are many trees in the park, like in a forest."

森林にはたくさん木にあるようなところです。
If you mean "a forest is a place where there are many trees," then
森林はたくさん木にあるところです。

Both ように and ような express similarity, but the first is adverbial and the second is adjective form.
森のようにたくさんある。([There are] a lot like in a forest.)
森のような公園。(Park that is like a forest.)
Here is a brief description from Tae Kim's website.
Expressing similarity - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

日本人が家具を使うのように私も同じ家具で部屋を掃除する。

日本人が家具を使うように私も同じように家具で部屋を掃除する。
家具 （かぐ）should be replaced by 掃除道具（そうじどうぐ）

 

[Elizabeth]

私の部屋には教室にあるような黒板があります。
Lit: my's room [location marker, subject marker] classroom has compare, similar to blackboard has?
I don't understand.

教室にあるような黒板： Blackboard like [the one] found in a classroom

別の言い方で言ってみよう。

私の部屋(の中）にある黒板は 教室にあるものと、(同じ)よう ((とても似ている....）)

The blackboard in my room is (very) similar to the one [that is] in the classroom.

「ものと...ようです」と言えばいいでしょうか？

 

[Putrefaction]

Thanks a lot, you guys. It's beginning to make sense to me. Elizabeth, your second sentence will need further examination, but the first time I did get the general sense of it, as usual, but the last parenthesis... ji, niru? Resemble? I think I just learned that Kanji, and it does fit in with your sentence!

NYCは東京のような市です。NYCは東京のように高い建物があって, 東京の生活は(も？）NYCのように忙しいです。

I tried to use のように since it's the one I have the hardest time with, のような is pretty easy.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks a lot, you guys. It's beginning to make sense to me. Elizabeth, your second sentence will need further examination, but the first time I did get the general sense of it, as usual, but the last parenthesis... ji, niru? Resemble? I think I just learned that Kanji, and it does fit in with your sentence!

NYCは東京のような市です。NYCは東京のように高い建物があって, 東京の生活は(も？）NYCのように忙しいです。

I tried to use のように since it's the one I have the hardest time with, のような is pretty easy.

In this example, wa tells us that the topic of conversation is life in Japan or NYC ? The pivot was confusing. :=)

NYC(に)は東京のように, 多くの 高い建物があり, 多くの忙しい人がいます. :?

どちらも非常ににぎやかな都会ですね。 (人, 高い建物がたくさん集まっている場所...)

 

[Putrefaction]

Yeah, I'm really sorry. Your sentences are what I meant to put, but if we pretend (and I'm sorry we've been doing that for the past two examples of mine) that they are all separate sentences, do they work?

NYCは東京のような市です。
NYCは東京のように高い建物があります。
東京の生活はNYCのように忙しいです。

I think then, these are OK. Also, I understood most of your last sentence again! Well, I recognized the Kanji, 非(bad) and 常 (normal). 非常（ひじょう）？Which of these are unusual for a busy city?

Or how about:
リアムさんは日本人のように箸を使えます。