Some grammar clarifications

[Kirakira1232]

Konnichiwa minna~!

I was just wanting to clarify some new grammar I had learned this week, and just hope that I got these correct.

～るうえで～

人間関係は働いていくうえでとても大事だ。
If you continue to work then human relationships are important.

結婚は仕事や研究を続けるうえでマイナスになる
If you continue to do work or research then marriage is detrimental.

How does this construction differ from the ~ば form? Would you be able to say for example: 仕事や研究を続ければ結婚はマイナスになる。

~ないで（ずに）～こと（名詞）～はない

人間関係の配慮をしないで言葉を発することはない。
You cannot mumble anything without considering other's feelings (人間関係 means human relationships though I think right?)

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
There is no need to go out without eating breakfast.

国の家族のことを考えないで暮らす日はない。
I cannot live a day without thinking of my family at home.

Do I have this correct? Another attack of the double negative! I'm not sure if my translation is really correct but this is the conclusion I had come to.

～ないかぎり～ない

特別に許された間柄でないかぎり、そういうことは言わない

I'm not really sure what this is saying The best I can think of is "You can't really say that if you don't allow that relation".

タバコを止めないかぎり、あなたは健康な体にはなりませんよ。
If you dont stop smoking then you your health will become worse. (if you dont stop smoking then your body won't become healthy).

Is this construction different fron saying ～なければ ？

よろしくお願いします～

 

[undrentide]

Hi Kirakira!

I was just wanting to clarify some new grammar I had learned this week, and just hope that I got these correct.

～るうえで～

人間関係は働いていくうえでとても大事だ。
If you continue to work then human relationships are important.

結婚は仕事や研究を続けるうえでマイナスになる
If you continue to do work or research then marriage is detrimental.

How does this construction differ from the ~ば form? Would you be able to say for example: 仕事や研究を続ければ結婚はマイナスになる。

Translating （～る）うえで as "if" can be misleading, because ～うえで actually means "in perspective of xxx", "appraching from xxx".

人間関係は働いていくうえでとても大事だ。
Human relationships are important in perspective of working.

結婚は仕事や研究を続けるうえでマイナスになる
Marriage is detrimental in perspective of continuing work or research.

~ないで（ずに）～こと（名詞）～はない

人間関係の配慮をしないで言葉を発することはない。
You cannot mumble anything without considering others feelings (人間関係 means human relationships though I think right?)

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
There is no need to go out without eating breakfast.

国の家族のことを考えないで暮らす日はない。
I cannot live a day without thinking of my family at home.

Do I have this correct? Another attack of the double negative! I'm not sure if my translation is really correct but this is the conclusion I had come to.

Your understanding of ～ないで is correct.

By the way, interpretation of ことはない:

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
There is no need to go out without eating breakfast.

～ことはない can be "you don't have to" but usually it is more natural to take it as one's habits except in a limited situation.

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
I do not go out without eating breakfast.
(Note: the subject of this sentence can vary depending on the context.)

～ないかぎり～ない

特別に許された間柄でないかぎり、そういうことは言わ ない

I'm not really sure what this is saying. The best I can think of is "You can't really say that if you don't allow that relation".

タバコを止めないかぎり、あなたは健康な体にはなりま せんよ。
If you dont stop smoking then you your health will become worse. (if you dont stop smoking then your body won't become healthy).

Is this construction different fron saying ～なければ ？

～かぎり means "as far/long as ..."
If it is used with negation （～ないかぎり） then it can be translated as "unless".

タバコを止めないかぎり、あなたは健康な体にはなりま せんよ。
Unless you do not quit smoking, you cannot become healthy.
As far as you do not stop smoking (= as far as you continue smoking), you cannot be healthy.

～なければ is "if you do not".

 

[Kirakira1232]

As always you are an awesome help unrendtide What would i do without you?

Also about this sentence again:

特別に許された間柄でないかぎり、そういうことは言わない

I'm not sure how "特別に許された" modifies "間柄" I understand what the words mean individually but in this combination i'm not sure how its would turn out in english :?

 

[Toritoribe]

As always you are an awesome help unrendtide. What would i do without you?
Also about this sentence again:
特別に許された間柄でないかぎり、そういうことは言わ ない
I'm not sure how "特別に許された" modifies "間柄" I understand what the words mean individually but in this combination I'm not sure how its would turn out in english

（そういうことを言うことが）特別に許された間柄でな いかぎり、そういうことは言わない。

The object of 許された is omitted, because it's obvious in the main clause.

 

[Kirakira1232]

（そういうことを言うことが）特別に許された間柄でないかぎり、そういうことは言わない。
The object of 許された is omitted, because it's obvious in the main clause.;-)

Oh! hahahaha I feel kinda silly now...that does make sense.

I guess I do need it spelled out for me

ありがとう～！

 

[Elizabeth]

Your understanding of ～ないで is correct.

By the way, interpretation of ことはない:

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
There is no need to go out without eating breakfast.

～ことはない can be "you don't have to" but usually it is more natural to take it as one's habits except in a limited situation.

朝食を食べないで出かけることはない
I do not go out without eating breakfast.
(Note: the subject of this sentence can vary depending on the context.)

So basically "affirmative Vinf + ことはない" the interpretation of 'no need' (必要はない） means alternatively 'no possibility' (可能性はない) or 'not impossible but not at all likely' （はずはない) depending on the situation.

 

[Elizabeth]

Konnichiwa minna~!
I was just wanting to clarify some new grammar I had learned this week, and just hope that I got these correct.
～るうえで～
人間関係は働いていくうえでとても大事だ。
If you continue to work then human relationships are important.

結婚は仕事や研究を続けるうえでマイナスになる
If you continue to do work or research then marriage is detrimental.

人間関係は働いていくうえでとても大事なこと(もの)だと思います。
Human relations is something that is important for/from the perspective of working.

結婚は仕事や研究を続けるうえでマイナスになる（という）ことです）
Marriage is what suffers with continued work or research/something detrimental from the perspective of continued work or research.


Sorry I didn't really have time to get cracking on these until late, so I'm sure there are better usages of the grammar...but without providing any big changes in meaning it could bring clarity in from the English side ?? ☝ *edit* or...not so much ??? this is a tough one...