Some Questions on Japanese

[ninjacatman]

Hi all,
yoroshiku ne, I have some questions about Japanese,
what are the difference between kun,san,chan and dono
(I already know what sama is), and are they used for both,
men and women?

My second question is, on nani. Correct me if I am wrong, but
I think it means, what/why. I have heard nani des ka, nani oh,
nandeste, and nande. what are the differences in these?

 

[Clawn]

I'm still a bit shaky on the second topic myself, but I'd be more than happy to explain to you about the first subject.

-kun is a suffix generally used by older males targeting younger males, or by teachers targeting male students, or towards any male child.

-san is a suffix that roughly means the same as Mr. or Ms., it is the most commonly used suffix that I have learned of thus far, and is considered the proper way to address strangers or acquaintances.

-chan is generally used towards younger girls or sometimes by teachers targeting female students

-dono is roughly the same as lord or lady, and generally isn't used in everyday speech

Here is a wikipedia article on the subject. I hope I helped you out a little bit.

 

[ninjacatman]

thanks, I looked think I understand a little better, I can see that these
take some time to grasp.

does omai mean you?

 

[FrustratedDave]

-kun is a suffix generally used by older males targeting younger males, or by teachers targeting male students, or towards any male child.

-san is a suffix that roughly means the same as Mr. or Ms., it is the most commonly used suffix that I have learned of thus far, and is considered the proper way to address strangers or acquaintances.

And you will still find that in work place enviroment that kun is used for women.

thanks, I looked think I understand a little better, I can see that these
take some time to grasp.

does omai mean you?

omae= you Not very polite and I would not use it unless you really know how. Actualy there are very few foriegners I know who can use the word "omae" in a situation other than with family where they won't cause some sort of ill will towards the recipient. You would have to be extremly close to that person and even then in the wrong situation or setting you can still cause the recipient to feel like he is being spoken down too.

 

[grapefruit]

My second question is, on nani. Correct me if I am wrong, but
I think it means, what/why. I have heard nani des ka, nani oh,
nandeste, and nande. what are the differences in these?

"Nani" literally means "what" not "why."

"nani desu ka" is an awkward expression. Native Japanese speakers probably do not use it.

"nani o" is made of the question word "nani" plus the objective case particle "o". Depending on the verb omitted after the particle o, the meaning changes. For example, "nani o (taberu)?" would mean "What do you eat?" or "What are you going to eat?" Most likely the conversation goes
A:"I will eat." taberu
B:"eat what?" nani o?

Did you mean "nandesutte? 何ですって？" by "nandeste?

"Nande" means "why?" You might think this contradicts with the first statement I provided in this post, but bear with me.
Nande is made of the components "nani" and the particle "de".
Phonologically, they were merged and became "nande".
"Nani de" means "with what?", "by what?", "through what?", etc. The particle "de" in this case signals "means".

So, sentences like "nan de (nani de) sushi o tabe masu ka?" would be glossed as "What do you eat sushi with?"

As for the reason "nande" sometimes means "why", I speculate "for what purpose?" became "for what?" It is just a speculation, someone else probably have a better explanation.

 

[becki_kanou]

Just a bit of advice, but the best way to learn (on your own that is) is by getting a textbook and just slogging through.

Please forgive me if I am incorrect in my assumption, but I'm going to hazard a guess from some of the things you've asked that you have been trying to pick up Japanese through manga or anime. While these can be fun and interesting, they are a very bad way to try to learn Japanese. The characters often speak in an exaggerated or stylized way that is far removed from ordinary Japanese and often use quite rude or bizarre expressions.

 

[FrustratedDave]

"Nani de" means "with what?", "by what?", "through what?", etc. The particle "de" in this case signals "means".
So, sentences like "nan de (nani de) sushi o tabe masu ka?" would be glossed as "What do you eat sushi with?"
As for the reason "nande" sometimes means "why", I speculate "for what purpose?" became "for what?" It is just a speculation, someone else probably have a better explanation.

I translate "nan de sushi o tabe masu ka?" as "Why do you eat sushi?" , not " With what do you eat sushi with?" I think your first statement is just a little too broad.

 

[grapefruit]

The particle "de" seems to have another function of marking reason and cause, according to 広辞苑 kojien.
Examples：
火事ですべてを失う　(I) lost everything because of the fire.
かぜで休む I missed school because of sickness.

So the reason why "nande" becomes "why" must be due to the function of the particle "de".

"nande" = "nani" + "de" = "what" + "because of" = "because of what"

I translate "nan de sushi o tabe masu ka?" as "Why do you eat sushi?" , not " With what do you eat sushi with?" I think your first statement is just a little too broad.

Yes! the sentence has both meanings. So, Japanese kids often have fun with questions like that to trick others.
A: アメリカ人はなんでよくピザを食べるの？
B:チーズが好きだからかな？
A:ちがう！手でたべるんだよ！

To disambiguate these two, "dooshite" is sometimes used.　　In formal writing　and speech, "nande" should be avoided. Use "dooshite" for "why" instead.

 

[Toritoribe]

In addition, as already mentioned, "nan de" can mean both "why" and "with what," while "nani de" is not used as "why."

なんですしを食べたんですか？
Nan de sushi o tabetandesu ka?

1)as the answer to "why"
お腹が空いてたからです。(Onaka ga suiteta kara desu.)
Because I was hungry.

2)as the answer to "with what"
箸で食べました。(Hashi de tabemashita.)
I ate it with chopsticks.


なにですしを食べたんですか？
Nani de sushi o tabetandesu ka?

箸で食べました。
Hashi de tabemashita.
(In this case, the answer "Onaka ga suiteta kara desu" is odd.)

In conversation, it seems that "nan de" is mainly used for "why," and "nani de" for "with what," just my impression.

 

[ninjacatman]

WOW, you guys are really helpful. I can see that I wont be able to seriously study
Japanese until I finish Chinese, but I'd still like to dabble with it. I understand the 'de' a little better now too; it is similar to the Chinese 'de' which symbolizes ownership, however,
this can also be use to link two ideas together. Not really like joining 'nani' and 'de' does, but kind of similar. I take it 'de' is an article that has little or no meaning of it's own,
(Chinese has a lot of these) but gains meaning with context and usage?

 

[ninjacatman]

In Chinese, you say like,"speak 'de' good" means 'well said!', without the 'de', the sentence would mean something else, can the Japanese 'de' be used in this way?

 

[grapefruit]

In Chinese, you say like,"speak 'de' good" means 'well said!', without the 'de', the sentence would mean something else, can the Japanese 'de' be used in this way?

Actually 的 (de) in Chinese roughly corresponds to の(no) in Japanese. But, I don't know what 得 (de) corresponds to in Japanese.:?

 

[himeji]

... manga or anime. While these can be fun and interesting, they are a very bad way to try to learn Japanese. The characters often speak in an exaggerated or stylized way that is far removed from ordinary Japanese and often use quite rude or bizarre expressions.

I find anime very (/very/) useful.

Obviously you need to account context, target audience and genre but if a little common sense is applied things should be ok. If you don't then you'd likely insult every one you meet the second you open your mouth... (anime sure are useful for stuff you'd never see in a text book).

 

[Glenn]

Actually 的 (de) in Chinese roughly corresponds to の(no) in Japanese. But, I don't know what 得 (de) corresponds to in Japanese.:?

My understanding is that 地 (de) is like に to make adverbs when the adverbs come before the verb, and 得 (de) is like に to make adverbs, except the adverbs come after the verb.

Ex.
他偷偷儿地把钱拿走了。
他偷偷兒地把錢拿走了。
He secretly took away the money

块块地吃吧！
Hurry up and eat!

他说话说得很快。
他說話說得很快。
He speaks very quickly.

他说得不快。
他說得不快。
He doesn't speak fast.

Of course, there seems to be a lot more to the 得 de, but anyway... This is taken from Modern Mandarin Chinese Grammar: A Practical Guide (現在漢語實用語法).

 

[FrustratedDave]

In addition, as already mentioned, "nan de" can mean both "why" and "with what," while "nani de" is not used as "why."
なんですしを食べたんですか？
Nan de sushi o tabetandesu ka?
1)as the answer to "why"
お腹が空いてたからです。(Onaka ga suiteta kara desu.)
Because I was hungry.
2)as the answer to "with what"
箸で食べました。(Hashi de tabemashita.)
I ate it with chopsticks.
なにですしを食べたんですか？

I have never heard someone answer the question:
なんですしを食べたんですか？
Nan de sushi o tabetandesu ka?
with an answer of,
箸で食べました。(Hashi de tabemashita.)
I ate it with chopsticks.

If you asked 100 people that question , 100 people would say "why" they ate sushi, b/c they like like it , they were hungry ect, ect. Not what with.

Or is this a Kansai thing...

 

[Glenn]

Well, there's at least this anecdote.

 

[FrustratedDave]

Well, there's at least this anecdote.

And Undrentides post only exemplifies the fact that "nande" is almost(I say "almost" purely b/c there is no absolute) exclusively used to suggest "why" .

Ok , so if I asked you this how would someone respond,
なんで手を使った？
nan de te wo tukatta?

My point is if it is so widley recognised, why confuse the situation?

 

[Toritoribe]

Yeah, so なんで can mean "with what," but is mainly used for "why.";-)

 

[Glenn]

And Undrentides post only exemplifies the fact that "nande" is almost(I say "almost" purely b/c there is no absolute) exclusively used to suggest "why" .

Ok , so if I asked you this how would someone respond,
なんで手を使った？
nan de te wo tukatta?

My point is if it is so widley recognised, why confuse the situation?

I just wanted to point out an actual use of the less common usage. I agree with you and toritoribe that you'll almost always get the "why?" interpretation. But it makes me wonder -- does the joke work because people actually do use it to mean "with what," or is there just some sort of shared conciousness that it's theoretically possible, so the joke works, even though it doesn't really get used that way?

 

[grapefruit]

I also think that "why" meaning is correct 99.9%. It is probably because sentences like なんですしを食べたんですか？ are usually asked for the reason but not for the means. Whether one eats sushi by hand or with chopsticks normally attracts little interest. So both readings are correct but "why" is probably what people usually expect.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I just wanted to point out an actual use of the less common usage. I agree with you and toritoribe that you'll almost always get the "why?" interpretation. But it makes me wonder -- does the joke work because people actually do use it to mean "with what," or is there just some sort of shared conciousness that it's theoretically possible, so the joke works, even though it doesn't really get used that way?

I just see that kind of answer as a 駄洒落 "dajyare" .

 

[grapefruit]

In the following contexts, "with what" is the first thing that people think of.

A:代金はなんで払いますか？
B:クレジットカードでお願いします。

A:じゃあ駅まで何で行く？
B:タクシーは高いから、バスで行こう！

 

[Ashikaga]

In the following contexts, "with what" is the first thing that people think of.

A:代金はなんで払いますか？
B:クレジットカードでお願いします。

A:じゃあ駅まで何で行く？
B:タクシーは高いから、バスで行こう！

Looks like the placement of なんで could be a clue as to if it means Why or How.
If they were placed at the beginning ( なんで代金を払いますか？/ なんで駅まで行くの？）, to me, they would sound more like Why.

 

[Toritoribe]

Plus, the sentence-final/case particle or the conjugation of the verb seems to have some functions to change the meaning.

代金はなんで払う？(with what)
なんで代金を払ったの/払わなきゃいけないの？(why)

駅までなんで行く？(with what)
なんで駅まで行ったの/行くの/行きたいの？(why)

ここまではなんで来たの？(with what)
なんでこんなとこまで来たの？(why)

In conclusion, it depends on the context...

 

[ninjacatman]

eh, guys, I don't have a Japanese IME on the system I am using here,
so when you use Japanese letters or Chinese Characters, they just appear
as computer jargon. I do appreciate all your help, this is one of the two most
helpful forums I've found! (the other one is blenderunderground.com , which is
a 3D animation forum; I'm an animator.) so... 'no' is like the Chinese 'de'?(as far
as ownership)...like one would say 'that is that is miko chan no hat. .....?

or is it like the relationship between two ideas like 'de' is in the example I gave earlier?
(speak 'de' good!)