How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[noraemon]

Thank you.
Was it good in the explanation of my second post?

Putrefaction,Though it is good if my explanation is transmitted to you.

 

[aardwolf]

I was gonna say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｽ mightve been better

ashikagaﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ, noraemonﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶﾂ、
what is the difference between 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽﾂ and 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ?
Whenever i use 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ someone corrects me to 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ.

also how would i say "an important thing"

窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙遺?堙?窶堙
窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙娯?堙?窶堙
or some other modifier?

 

[Putrefaction]

I understood in the second post!

I should know your question, 忘れた vs 忘れていました. I think one is connected to the present, one is connected to the past. "Did you take out the trash last night?" / "Did you take out the trash today?" Though there is the 99% chance I'm wrong.

 

[Toritoribe]

I was gonna say 忘れてた mightve been better

忘れてた is quite same as 忘れていました, as noraemon-san wrote. It's just the contraction of the informal form 忘れていた.;-)

what is the difference between 忘れた and 忘れていました?
Whenever i use 忘れた someone corrects me to 忘れていた.

忘れる belongs to 瞬間動詞, thus 忘れている expresses a state. Furthermore, 忘れて（い）た often connotes 思い出した "to remember now."

also how would i say "an important thing"
大切なもの
大切のもの
or some other modifier?

The former. 大切 is a na-adjective.

 

[Putrefaction]

忘れる belongs to 瞬間動詞, thus 忘れている expresses a state. Furthermore, 忘れて（い）た often connotes 思い出した "to remember now."

Was I wrong/far off?

 

[Toritoribe]

Was it good in the explanation of my second post?

noraemon窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱﾂ、窶堋ｱ窶堙ｱ窶堙俄?堋ｿ窶堙債。Putrefaction窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱ窶堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙固ｽﾂｿ窶禿｢窶堙ｰﾅｽv窶堋｢窶堙や?堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙娯?堙債、窶堋ｿ窶堙･窶堋､窶堙??佚｣窶督ｼﾅｽﾅ停?堙個「窶堙個」窶堙ｰ窶｢ﾃ冷?ｹﾂｭ窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｱ窶堙ｫ窶堋ｾ窶堋ｩ窶堙ｧ窶堋ｾ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷ窶堙ｦﾂ。;-)
How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

Was I wrong/far off?

No. That's OK. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ exactly expresses the present state "not to remember."

 

[Putrefaction]

I cannot believe I got that right. I also forgot about the state, If I am right, "remember" (obviously the opposite of forget) is in here, is "tired" also a one of these states? "Going"/"coming"?

 

[noraemon]

I was gonna say 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｽ mightve been better
ashikagaﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶ, noraemonﾂ静ｦﾂ青ｶﾂ、
what is the difference between 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽﾂ and 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ?
Whenever i use 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ someone corrects me to 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ.
also how would i say "an important thing"
窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙遺?堙?窶堙
窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙娯?堙?窶堙
or some other modifier?

It is a difficult question.

"窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ" and "窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ" are events toward the past both from the direct front.
The difference with "窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ" and "窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ" depends where of the past your attention is turned to.
"窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ" is expression of "a feeling of absence for one's act in the past".
"窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ" is expression of "a feeling of absence for one's sense to the direct front".

"窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙娯?堙?窶堙? is wrong as Japanese.
Please use "窶佚･ﾂ静倪?堙遺?堙?窶堙啓/B]". It is right Japanese.

 

[Toritoribe]

woah, i didnt even notice
thanks!
i guess that was my 100th?

User titles
But probably this system would be changed. I apparently posted 920+ until now, but the belt is still brown.

 

[Ashikaga]

Was I wrong/far off?

Basically, you use 忘れた when you have forgotten something, and 忘れていた when you were forgetting something but now you have remembered it.

There is an exception to this rule, that is when 忘れる is used for "to leave (behind)" as in
「あ！財布を家に忘れた！」"Ooops! I've left my wallet back at the house!".

忘れた

Putreに電話をしたいのですが、(彼の)電話番号を忘れました。
I want to call Putre but I've forgotten his number.

彼女を本当に愛していたけれど、もう(彼女の)顔も忘れた。
I loved her very much but now I can't even remember her face.

「忘（れる）」という漢字を忘れました。
I cannot remember the kanji for わすれる.

忘れていた

Putreの電話番号を携帯電話に登録してあったのを忘れてました！
I forgot/was forgetting that I had Putre's number saved (registrered, literally) in my cell phone! (but now I have remembered)

恋人と別れるのがどれだけ辛いものなのか、今まで忘れていました。
I've been forgetting how painful a breakup was until now. (but now I've remembered)

あぁ！「わすれる」って「忘」と書くのか！ すっかり忘れてた。
Ahhhh! You use "忘" for "わすれる"! D'oh!! (now I remember)


At least that's how I understand it.

 

[Toritoribe]

I cannot believe I got that right. I also forgot about the state, If I am right, "remember" (obviously the opposite of forget) is in here, is "tired" also a one of these states? "Going"/"coming"?

You got it!
They all belong to Group3/ﾂ瞬ﾅ?ﾃ披?慊ｮﾅｽﾅ?

 

[Putrefaction]

User titles
But probably this system would be changed. I apparently posted 920+ until now, but the belt is still brown.

Yeah, mine didn't change at 400 either, but whatever

Basically, you use 忘れた when you have forgotten something, and 忘れていた when you were forgetting something but now you have remembered it.
There is an exception to this rule, that is when 忘れる is used for "to leave (behind)" as in
「あ！財布を家に忘れた！」"Ooops! I've left my wallet back at the house!".
忘れた
Putreに電話をしたいのですが、(彼の)電話番号を忘れました。
I want to call Putre but I've forgotten his number.
彼女を本当に愛していたけれど、もう(彼女の)顔も忘れた。
I loved her very much but now I can't even remember her face.
「忘（れる）」という漢字を忘れました。
I cannot remember the kanji for わすれる.
忘れていた
Putreの電話番号を携帯電話に登録してあったのを忘れてました！
I forgot/was forgetting that I had Putre's number saved (registrered, literally) in my cell phone! (but now I have remembered)
恋人と別れるのがどれだけ辛いものなのか、今まで忘れていました。
I've been forgetting how painful a breakup was until now. (but now I've remembered)
あぁ！「わすれる」って「忘」と書くのか！ すっかり忘れてた。
Ahhhh! You use "忘" for "わすれる"! D'oh!! (now I remember)

Right! That's what I was aiming for, one connected to the present and one connected to the past!! Thank you for the examples!!!

You got it!
They all belong to Group3/瞬間動詞.

Hell yeah, I'm really happy

Small clarification so I nail it down: Let's say I asked someone for the reading of a Kanji, and I forgot what he said. Would this be 忘れてた if it was a while ago? Then 忘れてました if it was recently.

 

[noraemon]

Yeah, my belt yellowed! !

I am glad to be able to help Putrefaction, you.

Toritoribeさん、こんにちは。よろしくお願いします。

 

[Putrefaction]

Congratulations on your new belt, and thanks for helping me!

 

[aardwolf]

noraemon! おめでとう！

toritoribe, ashikaga, noraemon:

thank you so much for the clarification

わすれた ＝ forgot and still doesnt remember
わすれて（い）た ＝ had forgotten but now remembers!

just a little side note ashikaga先生, not to nitpick but
I've been forgetting how painful a breakup was until now. (but now I've remembered)
sounds better as
I'd forgotten how painful breakups were until now. (but now I've remembered)

toritoribe:

忘れてた is quite same as 忘れていました, as noraemon-san wrote. It's just the contraction of the informal form 忘れていた.

oh yeah, i wasnt arguing whether 忘れてた or 忘れていました was better, i was just saying to putrefaction that rather than 忘れて it should be わすれて（た／いました）

Putrefaction:

I think it would be 忘れていました if you remembered the 読み, and 忘れた if you still didnt remember. as per ashikaga... so if its wrong.. its his fault!! XD

 

[aardwolf]

ah toritoribeさん！
this explains why you havent been raised yet!
User titles

 

[Toritoribe]

oh yeah, i wasnt arguing whether 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｽ or 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ was better, i was just saying to putrefaction that rather than 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙 it should be 窶堙ｭ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｪ窶堙?（窶堋ｽﾂ／窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ）

Ah, I see.

I forget what your next one is, I think green. Oops, I think I can write that in Japanese.
Tsugi no "belt" o wazurete, midori no (da?) to omoimasu.
But that's probably wrong.

I would say ﾅｽﾅｸ窶堙姑遅ﾆ停?ｹﾆ暖窶堙個色窶堋ｪ窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙云窶堋ｩ/窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙ｱ]窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶伉ｽ窶｢ﾂｪ窶氾寂?堋ｾ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。in that case. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ means that you'd forgotten but have remembered the next color is green, as already explained.;-)

Just a tip.
窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ expresses the state "being forgetting" is past, thus, also suggests now is "not being forgetting" = "being remembering", like as ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ vs ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ.

ah toritoribe窶堋ｳ窶堙ｱﾂ！
this explains why you havent been raised yet!
User titles

Ooops! I had to read the thread more carefully.

 

[Elizabeth]

Ah, I see.
I would say 次のベルトの色が何[なに]か/何[なん]だったか忘れました。多分緑だと思います。in that case. 忘れていました means that you'd forgotten but have remembered the next color is green, as already explained.;-)
Just a tip.
忘れていました expresses the state "being forgetting" is past, thus, also suggests now is "not being forgetting" = "being remembering", like as 結婚している vs 結婚していた.
Ooops! I had to read the thread more carefully.

彼女は色のことを忘れてしまっていたようだった (She seemed to have forgotten about the color) is OK, though, (I *think*) when it had to be inferred as her state at a single point in time. And of course you totally lose contact which makes it impossible to know whether they have remembered by now or not...

彼女の視点で、時制を考える事ができるので、現在完了時制と過去完了時制が両立する事ができるかな。
文法は難しいですね。

 

[Toritoribe]

窶敕楪鞘?披?堙債色窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙懌?堙≫?堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙ｦ窶堋､窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ (She seemed to have forgotten about the color) is OK, though, (I *think*) when it had to be inferred as her state at a single point in time. And of course you totally lose contact which makes it impossible to know whether they have remembered by now or not...ﾂ

窶敕楪鞘?披?堙固ｽ窶ｹ窶彑窶堙?、ﾅｽﾅｾﾂ青ｧ窶堙ｰﾂ考窶堋ｦ窶堙ｩﾅｽ窶凪?堋ｪ窶堙??堋ｫ窶堙ｩ窶堙娯?堙?、ﾅ陳ｻﾂ催敘?ﾂｮ窶板ｹﾅｽﾅｾﾂ青ｧ窶堙??ｰﾃ溪?ｹﾅｽﾅ?ﾂｮ窶板ｹﾅｽﾅｾﾂ青ｧ窶堋ｪ窶板ｼ窶板ｧ窶堋ｷ窶堙ｩﾅｽ窶凪?堋ｪ窶堙??堋ｫ窶堙ｩ窶堋ｩ窶堙按。ﾂ
窶｢ﾂｶ窶邸窶堙坂?愿ｯ窶堋ｵ窶堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙仰。

Right. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ doesn't always mean ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ "to have remembered now."

窶ｰﾃ??堙俄?吮?ｦ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｫﾂ、窶敕樞?堙債宿窶佚ｨ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙≫?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
When he came home, he completely forgot about the home work.

This is the simple past of 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ, and doesn't show if he remembered the home work later or not. So the meaning depends on the context, as always.

 

[Putrefaction]

Putrefaction:

I think it would be 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ if you remembered the 窶愿??堙? and 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ if you still didnt remember. as per ashikaga... so if its wrong.. its his fault!! XD

Haha, I didn't delete the te after I copy-pasted. I'll see what Tori says:

Ah, I see.
I would say ﾅｽﾅｸ窶堙姑遅ﾆ停?ｹﾆ暖窶堙個色窶堋ｪ窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙云窶堋ｩ/窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙ｱ]窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶伉ｽ窶｢ﾂｪ窶氾寂?堋ｾ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。in that case. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ means that you'd forgotten but have remembered the next color is green, as already explained.;-)
Just a tip.
窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ expresses the state "being forgetting" is past, thus, also suggests now is "not being forgetting" = "being remembering", like as ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ vs ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ.
Ooops! I had to read the thread more carefully.

Hmmmm. I also need to read that thread, I'll try to remember that, but knowing me I'll forget tomorrow! :?

Right. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ doesn't always mean ﾅｽv窶堋｢ﾂ出窶堋ｵ窶堋ｽ "to have remembered now."
窶ｰﾃ??堙俄?吮?ｦ窶堋｢窶堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｫﾂ、窶敕樞?堙債宿窶佚ｨ窶堙娯?堋ｱ窶堙??堙ｰ窶堋ｷ窶堙≫?堋ｩ窶堙ｨ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽﾂ。
When he came home, he completely forgot about the home work.
This is the simple past of 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ, and doesn't show if he remembered the home work later or not. So the meaning depends on the context, as always.

So in my example:

Small clarification so I nail it down: Let's say I asked someone for the reading of a Kanji, and I forgot what he said. Would this be 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堋ｽ if it was a while ago? Then 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ if it was recently.

I think this is right.

 

[Elizabeth]

Betsu no iikata ! :

(Iro no koto) mo shitte wa itakedo, kangaete wa inakattan desu ne...

(I knew that but forgot to mention it) lol.

OR For what you wish you knew, but forgot you don't !


Another one.

Yes.
The meaning understands Even "緑色です" .
The meaning understands Even "緑色と思います" .

Tsugi no ha midori da to omoimasu.

Kikitori ha nihongo no benkyou no naka de, matto mo yaku ni tatsu to omoimasu.

 

[Elizabeth]

Right. 忘れていた doesn't always mean 思い出した "to have remembered now."
家に着いたとき、彼は宿題のことをすっかり忘れていた。
When he came home, he completely forgot about the home work.
This is the simple past of 忘れている, and doesn't show if he remembered the home work later or not. So the meaning depends on the context, as always.
And 忘れていた doesn't always mean 思い出した "to have remembered now."

For me, either. I usually make a big : "Wasureta !" like "Oh no! I forgot ...something " (when asked the next day about that homework....). The idea with "had forgotten" in English is that it places an action further back in the past than the normal past tense usually followed by another event (Had forgotten at the time of...Had forgotten when...). There are not necessarily connotations of current memory.

This is the simple past of 忘れている, and doesn't show if he remembered the home work later or not.

So either...

忘れて(しまって)いる(ようだった)

忘れて(しまって)いた(ようだった)

英語でも日本語でも、
完了形くらいのタイミングも同じではないのでしょ うかな？

わたしも英語の完了形ではタイミングの使い方がちょっと変 わりやすいなので、
ちょっと分からないこともありますよ。:-0

 

[Putrefaction]

Not sure if those were directed at me, but I don't understand'em.

 

[Elizabeth]

Not sure if those were directed at me, but I don't understand'em.

(Iro no koto) mo shitte wa itakedo, kangaete wa inakattan desu ne...

(Yeah, I knew that (about the color), but wasn't thinking straight...) Something else to say besides expressions of forgot.


Tsugi no ha midori da to omoimasu.

The next one I think is green.


And, so, that's all for you today !

 

[aardwolf]

Ah, I see.
I would say ﾅｽﾅｸ窶堙姑遅ﾆ停?ｹﾆ暖窶堙個色窶堋ｪ窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙云窶堋ｩ/窶ｰﾂｽ[窶堙遺?堙ｱ]窶堋ｾ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｩ窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。窶伉ｽ窶｢ﾂｪ窶氾寂?堋ｾ窶堙?ｽv窶堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。in that case. 窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ means that you'd forgotten but have remembered the next color is green, as already explained.;-)
Just a tip.
窶添窶堙ｪ窶堙??堋｢窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽ expresses the state "being forgetting" is past, thus, also suggests now is "not being forgetting" = "being remembering", like as ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堙ｩ vs ﾅ停?ｹﾂ債･窶堋ｵ窶堙??堋｢窶堋ｽ.
Ooops! I had to read the thread more carefully.

Yes because its saying you "Were in the state of having forgotten" which means that you now remember.

yes, i was going to post a question there when i saw jeisan's recent post!

putrefaction:

im not sure if it has anything to do with how recent it is, its just whether the state of not remembering is still continuing or not, but then again, 窶斗窶堙債静ｦﾂ青ｶ窶堋ｶ窶堙｡窶堙遺?堋｢窶堙??堋ｷ窶堙ｦ窶堙仰。ﾂ。ﾂ。

P.s. i dont really understand them either... ﾆ竪ﾆ椎?ﾆ旦ﾆ遅ﾆ湛窶堙個催??ｹﾃ溪?堙姑竹ﾆ湛ﾆ暖窶堙債。