How do you know... ON/KUN and beyond

[Putrefaction]

Oh that is a relief, I was like wait...what...WHAT?!

This one as well, because I got it as "sakujitsu".

I'm doing the past tenses of stuff, including ga arimasu, so far it's not going that bad I understand why it's kaimashita now.

 

[Toritoribe]

How in the hell is this souvenir? The hiragana makes 0 sense, by the way to me, the first kanji is Do, earth, but in hiragana it says mya, and the last one is san/u(mu), childbirth. how is it ge.

It's called 当て字[ateji].
Ateji - Wikipedia

The converse, where the kanji characters are used for their meaning without regard to their original reading and are assigned a new reading, is also a form of ateji. An example is 煙草 (tabako) for "tobacco", where the individual kanji have no phonetic relationship to the compound. Compounds that are established in the language are known as 熟字訓 (jukujikun), while improvised uses are just ateji (for example, 宿敵 shukuteki 'mortal enemy' to be read as the English-derived word raibaru 'rival').

お土産 is one of 熟字訓 [jukujikun]. So we have to remember the readings for each cases. It's tough even for native Japanese speakers.

The kanji 土産 itself is from （その）土地の産物, the produce/products of the region.

 

[Putrefaction]

Well in your example I recognize the kanji earth, earth, birth, thing. I guess that's a word for souviner, lol. The one for tobacco, I see the second kanji as so/kusa, grass. Thank you Toritoribe!
On with more questions!

Instead of ni, why can't I use wa? I'm not physically going there, I'm pointing out where it is. A minor thing I didn't understand is when you're saying between, as in two buildings, it's the kanji Ken/Kan/aida (interval), I thought it was as in a time interval. And in my book the kanji for Zen/mae meant previous, took a second for me to realize that it can mean "in front of" in terms of what you're describing.

This is quite fun! So just for practice I'm going to try to say, "There is an umbrella under the table".

Kasa wa teeburu no shita ga arimasu.

Friend: xv, watashi no kutsu o mimashita (ka)?
Me: Soo desu ne...hai, anata no kutsu wa teeburu to (some other place, I can't think of any words atm) no aida desu yo.

 

[Glenn]

に marks the location. You can use は, but the nuance is different. It would be like saying, "that place over there? there's a McDonald's."

テーブルの下に傘があります。(teeburu no shita ni kasa ga arimasu)

The way you have it is more like "the umbrella is under the table," or "it's the umbrella that's under the table (the shoes are on the sofa)."

The last dialog looks good!

 

[Putrefaction]

Hm. Yours seems odd to me but it makes sense.

Are wa Nihongo no sensei ga imasu.

Thanks for the ni. I thought it was used only for movement.

 

[Glenn]

「あれは」ってどういう意味？（「あれは」って どういう いみ？）
What do you mean by are wa?

 

[Ashikaga]

Are wa Nihongo no sensei ga imasu.

Are wa nihongo no sensei desu. = That (over there) is a Japanese teacher.

Asoko ni nihongo no sensei ga imasu. = There is a Japanese teacher over there.

 

[Putrefaction]

ASHIKAGA got it right on yhe money, I was trying to say, over there is a Japanese teacher. The second one I didn't know how to say but makes sense. I'll have to read the rules for asoko again, I think you do need ni for that one, haha.

意味 = imi, mind/spirit/feeling+taste. hmm...

This forum is awesome! (Sono foorumu wa ii desu yo)

 

[Toritoribe]

The one for tobacco, I see the second kanji as so/kusa, grass.

As you can see a bit vertically long 火 in the left part of the first kanji 煙, it has relationship to fire.

煙[エン、けむり] : smoke

So, 煙草 "smoke grass" means "tobacco." It's easy to understand, isn't it?;-)

あそこにマクドナルドがあります。
あそこに日本語[にほんご]の先生[せんせい]がいます。

These two sentences above have the quite same sentence structure. The only difference between them is the verb, あります for inanimate things and います for animate things.


Ah, just one more thing.

This forum : このフォーラム;-)

 

[Putrefaction]

Oopsie! I know kono means this, dunno why I put sono. I reread the rules for ga arimasu/imasu. Let's say I want to say, "there are shoes under that table."

Kutsu wa sono teeburu no shita ga arimasu.

Looks good to me but is it truly correct?

 

[Toritoribe]

Uh, again, you need to reread this comment.

に marks the location.

In Japanese, particles, not the order of words, play a decisively important role. I mean, があります/います is NOT a set phrase.

あそこにマクドナルドがあります。
"place/location + に(location marker)" "subject + が(subject marker)" verb

靴[くつ]がそのテーブルの下[した]にあります。
"subject + が(subject marker)" "place/location + に(location marker)" verb

So you can also say そのテーブルの下に靴があります.

は is the topis marker, not the subject marker. You might be better to reread Glenn-san's excellent explanations in this therad.;-)

You can use は, but the nuance is different. It would be like saying, "that place over there? there's a McDonald's."

テーブルの下に傘があります。(teeburu no shita ni kasa ga arimasu)

The way you have it is more like "the umbrella is under the table," or "it's the umbrella that's under the table (the shoes are on the sofa)."

You don't need to use は with temporal nouns (今日, 昨日, 去年, 来週, などなど). When you use it it means that you're contrasting something, so 今日は京都に行きます would be like "(Tomorrow I'm going to Nara/I'm not going to Kyoto tomorrow, but) today I'm going to Kyoto." 今日京都に行きます just means you're going to Kyoto today. 明日京都に行きません means "I'm not going to Kyoto tomorrow."

 

[Putrefaction]

It looks to me as if I'm adding both wa and ga at the same time.

I'm still not understanding this use of ni in this situation.

is it because I am using ga instead of wa? Man..and just when I thought I was doing alright...

--e

Neeeever mind, way back in the beginning:

. since i'm marking a place where it is...sorry people, slow and stupid here!

 

[Putrefaction]

Hey guys, back again! This time I have a little deciphering to do.

From what I can see:
gozen kuji ippun goro no ji(something) no jooho desu
--About 9:01 AM reports earth feelings (earthquake).
(that same something)do yon
--(all I understand is it is 4 degrees or 4 times)
(something (something) shi.
--...City.
sankokuchi
--Three country towns or something of this nature.

Good, bad for the parts I understood?

 

[epigene]

That's a news flash on earthquake around 9:01 a.m.

The second line shows the seismic level and locations
Shindo 4 (Level 4, based on the Japanese seismic measurement system, explained here: Earthquake measurement )

Two locations: Fukui City and Mikuni-cho (the readings of geographical names, esp. small towns and villages, cannot be confirmed easily, because there are wide variations when reading names). NHK usually has people all over the country to confirm the correct readings of every little hamlet.

In my case, I checked with the Japan Post's postal code checking website:
福井県の郵便番号変更・住所変更 - 市町村合併など

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh, I haven't even touched readings of locations or names, I'm not even on 500 kanji! Thank you for your information!

Here is a question for Glenn-san:

If you remember I asked you about your status thing:

かんがえちゅう, as in "thinking (about it)." Where'd you get じょ(う)? A mistake for じゅう (ぢゅう), perhaps?

If you use a kunyomi wouldn't the next one have to be kunyomi as well? If the on is CHU and kun is naka wouldn't your status be, "kangaenaka"?

 

[Glenn]

In my case, I checked with the Japan Post's postal code checking website:
福井県の郵便番号変更・住所変更 - 市町村合併など

Oh, that's nice. I didn't know such a thing existed! Thanks for sharing!

If you use a kunyomi wouldn't the next one have to be kunyomi as well? If the on is CHU and kun is naka wouldn't your status be, "kangaenaka"?

No, because ちゅう is a morpheme that means an action or status is in progress (strange that status would be grouped in there too, but there is 故障中, after all) when added to verbs. なか just means "in," "inside," "amidst," etc. It doesn't have the meaning of continuing action. It's one of the fun points of Japanese: not only do you have to know the characters, their meanings, and their readings, you also have to know the readings' meanings in some cases.

 

[Putrefaction]

Hm...I wonder how I got it kind of right last time...well I remain a mystery even to me sometimes. Is it because it is in combination with another word that you use ON instead of kun? Or because no kana afterwards?

 

[Glenn]

No, because ちゅう is a morpheme that means an action or status is in progress (strange that status would be grouped in there too, but there is 故障中, after all) when added to verbs. なか just means "in," "inside," "amidst," etc. It doesn't have the meaning of continuing action. It's one of the fun points of Japanese: not only do you have to know the characters, their meanings, and their readings, you also have to know the readings' meanings in some cases.

 

[Putrefaction]

Oh...uh...so would you use naka when you're describing a country or perhaps what is in your drink? I dunno, i feel stupid since you copied your post twice...makes me feel like i shoulda got it the first time.

 

[Glenn]

Sorry, I didn't feel like typing it again in different words so I just copied and pasted (although I guess I could have said "see above" or something like that). I just figured it was one of those things were you had something in mind that you were looking for so you didn't see what was there. It happens to me too, so don't feel too bad about it.

As for your question, I don't really know how to respond. Could you give some more concrete examples? Maybe someone else can do better in the meantime.

 

[Putrefaction]

Don't sweat it man, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so it takes me forever to learn something. You said we use chu when something is in motion or ongoing. Naka when it isn't. So since you are "in motion" of thinking it is chu/ju. Let's say I was describing an economic crisis such a the great depression of 1930s. Would I use naka? Another is asking someone what my drink is made up of. (in this drink is...).

It sounds stupid but I can't understand why I got it right before (luck?) and not now.

Thanks again!

 

[Glenn]

Here's an example that I hope helps clear this up for you: 勉強中 is べんきょうちゅう, not べんきょうなか, because べんきょうちゅう means "studying," but べんきょうなか doesn't mean anything. Same for 使用中 -- "in use." しようちゅう means "in use," しようなか means nothing. That ちゅう can be attached to non-kanji verbs as well, as in 考え中 or 話し中, although those seem to be the only two I can find that aren't kanji verbs/Sino-Japanese verbs at the moment. I'm pretty sure there are others, but I can't think of them (it seems 帰り中 is at least somewhat valid, though). In all of these examples 中 is read ちゅう, because it they wouldn't make sense if you were to read them なか. That's why it's かんがえちゅう.

 

[Glenn]

I just remembered another one that I'm a bit disappointed I didn't remember, because I see it all the time: 読み込み中 (よみこみちゅう). Same thing with this one as with the others.

Here are some なか for you:

管の中
くだの なか
inside a duct

家の中まで聞こえるような声で呼んだ
いえの なかまで きこえる ような こえで よんだ
He called in a voice so loud it could be heard inside the house.

中で待とう
なかで まとう
Let's wait inside (indoors).

中でドアを押さえる
なかで ドアを おさえる
hold the door from the inside

中に入ってもいいですか
なかに はいっても いいですか
May I come in?

 

[Toritoribe]

Uh, sorry but again, 中 is chuu[ちゅう]/juu[じゅう], not chu[ちゅ]/ju[じゅ].
e.g.
重: じゅう(not じゅ) - 重要[じゅうよう]
需: じゅ(not じゅう) - 需要[じゅよう]

じゅうよう "important" is not same to じゅよう "demand." It's important to remember the readings correctly.

In additon to Glenn-san's examples, ちゅう can be used for both meanings "in motion/ongoing" and "in/inside," whereas なか can't be used with suru-verb nouns/verb-origin nouns as the meaning "in motion/ongoing."

in motion/ongoing: 考え中 お試し中 お取り込み中 勉強中 思考中 試用中 (all 中 are read as ちゅう)...
in/inside: 大気中[たいきちゅう] 水中[すいちゅう] 車中[しゃちゅう] 町中[まちなか] 山中[やまなか/さんちゅう]...

まちなか/やまなか is a bit old expression. 町の中/山の中 is more commonly used. In conclusion, "noun + 中" is rarely read as なか.

A bit off topic. When 町中 is read as まちじゅう, the meaning is changed. Please refer to the thread below.
かと思うと | Japan Forum
(Sorry, Glenn-san. I didn't read the final post in this thread until now.)

Let's say I was describing an economic crisis such a the great depression of 1930s. Would I use naka?

Depending on the expression.
世界恐慌中[せかいきょうこうちゅう] can mean "in the great depression," but when used with の, it would be more natural to use 間[あいだ] as "term/span" instead of 中, like 世界恐慌の間.

Another is asking someone what my drink is made up of. (in this drink is...).

このドリンクの中[なか]には何が入っていますか？
このドリンク中[ちゅう]には何が入っていますか？

Both are acceptable. The former would be more common, though.

 

[Putrefaction]

I will digest all your help after work. Thanks so much again, guys!!