diplomacy of Meiji

[tokapi]

Sadly for China & Chinese people that he died " too early ",otherwise he could've fixed more of that country's social problems & handled international diplomacy much effectively.

He was the person had support of Han-Chinese grassroot movements and could rally Chinese minority groups like ethnic Zhuang to participate in military against foreign aggressions.

 

[tokapi]

However,I think logic etc. are not accurately told in the Chinese writings. It might be a cause that development afterwards has been prevented from China 's great ancient civilization.

even today, It seems not to be able to do an advanced education if not going to study to Europe and America for South Korea and china?

P.S. Japanese language's weak point in sentence."Yes" and "No" are not clear grammaticaly it is sometimes vague because of shame culture

Huh ... I have different perspective.

For Japan,the political & social transformation was from " top down ".For example,Yukichi Fukuzawa & Hirobumi Ito both studied abroad,they returned to Japan with " learned knowledge " and applied those concepts effectively.

Fukuzawa

* founded Keio University
* pushed drastic political changes

Ito

* significant contribution to implementation of parliamentary political system modeled on British.

Unlike China,it was " bottom up ".Grass root movements of discontented populace toppled Qing Dynasty then came nearly 1 century of upheavals.

The conclusion is,competency of ruling elites do matter.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

This Discussion is Awesome

Tokapi, you get 50 points for:

No ordinary Chinese ever taught at school and only a few of them have a clue that Japan was once victimized by Westerm imperial powers ...

The truth is Qing Dynasty only had 150 glorious years,the rest were down and rooten.Then came the British and French

... and for knowing Fukuzawa. That guy was awesome. He was a Japanese Benjamin Franklin. If you read both of their autobiographies, you'll find certain aspects of their personalities were similar.

The excuse of Britain is very interesting.
Everyone understands the diamond and Gold were the aims in Britain.

Not really. More complicated than that. Diamonds and gold were resources, but what was really key was tea and opium. Queen Victoria was the biggest drugdealer in human history (eat your heart out, Pablo Escobar). It wasn't just resources they wanted, but also safe coaling stations and other strategic locations that would keep the trade-lanes safe.

 

[caster51]

Indentured servant
Indentured servitude - Wikipedia

Maria Luz incident

http://www.princeton.edu/~collcutt/doc/Botsman_English.pdf (pdf)

Law of slave trade's prohibition was proclaimed in 1872 as a result of this incident...
I think it may have a relatation with comfort women.

then
Japan and the Race Question at the Paris Peace Conference: A Japanese View in 1919
Page Not Found: 404 | Sam Houston State University

Perry's "black ships", official envoys from the United States, came in 1853. The Ryūkyū kingdom was formally annexed to Japan, as Okinawa Prefecture, by the Meiji government in 1879. The monarchy in Shuri was abolished....
Hostility against mainland Japan increased in the Ryūkyūs immediately after its annexation to Japan. Japan introduced modern institutions, based on Western models................

during an earlier part of the Meiji era, Japan offered the Ryūkyū islands to the Qing Dynasty in exchange for treaty concessions, though the negotiation eventually failed.

History of the Ryukyu Islands - Wikipedia

1879 Japan replaces the Ryūkyū han with Okinawa Prefecture, formally annexing the islands. King Shō Tai (尚泰) is given the title of marquis (藩王 Han'ō) and removed to Tokyo.

showmyn's room
according to Rukyuu observation by 喜舎場朝賢 who was brains-truster of Ryuukyu king(尚泰) said "The Ryukyu disposal was a kind of emancipation of slaves."

BTW
5 Heros in Miyako Island
http://www.okinawatimes.co.jp/eng/ryukyu/ryu1_5_3.html
I think sense of impending crisis of Japan was already permeateｄ in such island at that time

 

[tokapi]

How about provide some reliable reading materials ( Japanese language ok ) on stay-with-Asia 興亞論 & leaving-Asia 脱亜論 political debates in Japan during Meiji era .

明治時代に,日本は脱亜入欧の政策からアジアの中で孤立してしまった。

 

[caster51]

Hi tokapi, GodEmperorLeto. off-topic again

I have a interesting Qize.


Question
The Japanese at that time is drawn.
The Japanese changed epochally at the Meiji era.
What changed do you think?

it is not hair style.....
It is more epoch thing.

 

[tokapi]

Can you write it in Japanese so I can have better grasp of the question.

 

[caster51]

窶堋ｱ窶堙固?G窶堙債江ﾅ津暁ｽﾅｾ窶佚｣窶堙個行窶氾ｱ窶堙固?G窶堙??堋ｷ
窶督ｾﾅｽﾂ｡窶堙俄?堙遺?堙ｨ窶ｰﾃｦﾅ?ﾃｺ窶廬窶堙俄?｢ﾃ鞘?堙ｭ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堋ｱ窶堙??堋ｪ窶堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｷﾂ。

窶堋ｻ窶堙ｪ窶堙坂?督ｾﾅｽﾂ｡窶堙娯?ｹﾃ溪?佚｣ﾅ坦ﾅｽ窶毒単窶氾ｻ窶堙懌?堋ｽ窶佚戸?ｧ窶堙娯?ｰ^窶慊ｮ窶堙遺?堙??堙??｢ﾃ鞘?ｰﾂｻ窶堋ｵ窶堙懌?堋ｵ窶堋ｽﾂ。

窶堋ｳ窶堙?、窶ｰﾂｽ窶堋ｪ窶｢ﾃ鞘?堙ｭ窶堙≫?堋ｽ窶堙??堋ｵ窶堙･窶堋､窶堋ｩﾂ？

窶堙?窶堋ｿ窶堙ｫ窶堙ｱ窶｢ﾅｾ窶倪?｢ﾂ、窶堋ｿ窶堙･窶堙ｱ窶堙懌?堋ｰ窶堙??堙坂?堋?窶堙ｨ窶堙懌?堋ｹ窶堙ｱ

 

[tokapi]

Thanks .. caster51

When was horse-drawn stagecoach introduced to Japan,not Meiji era ? I was thinking of more comfortable & better means of transportation instead of uniform.

 

[caster51]

The answer is how to walk. it is called Nanba or namba.
it is a basis of old japanese martial arts.
ナンバ走り - Wikipedia

Aikido Journal

 

[tokapi]

I never could've figure it out

 

[caster51]

Li-Lobanov Treaty

The Li-Lobanov Treaty or the Sino-Russian Secret Treaty (中俄密约) was a treaty signed on June 3, 1896 in Moscow by foreign minister Alexey Lobanov-Rostovsky and finance minister Sergey Witte on behalf of the Russian Empire and viceroy Li Hongzhang on behalf of China. The two powers concluded a defensive alliance against Japan, pledging mutual support in case of a Japanese attack.

The treaty allowed Russia to increase its presence in Northeast China as Russian personnel and police received extraterritorial jurisdiction. It allowed the use of Chinese ports by Russia in the case of war and China's consent to the construction of the China Eastern Railway (a part of the Trans-Siberian Railway). The railway was nominally a joint project, but was in reality completely financed and controlled by Russia.

China was also not allowed to interfere with Russian troop movements or munitions and also had to grant Russia decreased tariff rates. Russia's other major demand was delivered in true gunboat diplomacy fashion by a naval fleet in December 1897. China was forced to lease the southern tip of the Liaotung Peninsula to Russia and allow a railway line to be built connecting it to the main Russian line.

Construction of the Russian railroads in China increased the anti-foreign anger that came to a head in the Boxer rebellion of 1900. Chinese historians view the period between the Li-Lobanov Treaty and the outbreak of the Russo-Japanese War in 1904 as the time of Russia's domination of the Chinese Northeast region, in political and economical terms

Li–Lobanov Treaty - Wikipedia

Li Hongzhang
Li Hongzhang - Wikipedia
he was given lots of money as the bribe from Russia.
Anglo-Japanese Alliance
Anglo-Japanese Alliance - Wikipedia
Splendid isolation
Splendid isolation - Wikipedia
Russo-japan war
Œö•¶''ÉŒ©'é"ú˜Ií'ˆ

after that, Japan canceled an unequal agreement finaly.

the relation between Russia, Britain and Japan has recovered rapidly.
Anglo-Russian Convention - Wikipedia
Britain made Germany a hypothetical enemy instead of Russia.
Triple Entente - Wikipedia

Treaty of Portsmouth
Treaty of Portsmouth - Wikipedia

USA:
the United States planed to obtain profiting while others fight
by this agreement at that time.
The United States has been shut out from rights and interests in china by
Japan-Britain-Russia contrary to the speculation.
The United States intended China advancement with "Equality of opportunity" of propaganda.
however it failed.
if you read the article of NY times in 15th Aug 1945 ,you will understand it
The American feelings to Japan turn worse hereby
The United States demanded the disarmament and the cancellation of Japanese-English alliance.
It was a first step of World War II with the rise of Yellow Peril.

War Plan Orange
War Plan Red
War Plan Red - Wikipedia

William II, German Emperor
Wilhelm II, German Emperor - Wikipedia
he said after Russo-Japana war" It is asia united by Japan as a leader that we fears most though Japan oneself is not fear"


The center, a Japanese man 乃木希典 (Maresuke Nogi) and Russian man Anatolii Mikhailovich Stessel in Ryojun (China), The Russo-Japanese War 1904-1905

203高地 - Wikipedia
There was some break time in the fight of 203.
Killed in action was jointly mutually buried.
each soldiers drunk together






Nogi maresuke

At the end of the war, Nogi made a report directly to Emperor Meiji during a Gozen Kaigi. When explaining battles of the Siege of Port Arthur in detail, he broke down and wept, apologizing for the 56,000 lives lost in that campaign and asking to be allowed to kill himself in atonement. Emperor Meiji told him that suicide was unacceptable, as all responsibility for the war was due to imperial orders, and that Nogi must remain alive, at least as long as he himself lived...

He committed seppuku shortly after the Emperor Meiji's funeral entourage left the palace.[citation needed] The ritual suicide was in accordance with the samurai practice of following one's master to death (junshi). Nogi and his spouse bathed together, and changed into white kimonos, before sharing a cup of sake before the tokonoma. Mrs. Nogi proceeded to commit suicide first; while Nogi assisted by plunging a dagger into her neck. He then sliced his own stomach open. In his suicide letter, he said that he wished to expiate for his disgrace in Kyūshū, and for the thousands of casualties at Port Arthur.[citation needed]

All four members of the Nogi family are buried at Aoyama Cemetery in Tokyo. Under State Shinto, Nogi was revered as a kami and a Shinto shrine in his honor still exists on the site of his house in Nogizaka, Tokyo.[1]

Nogi Maresuke - Wikipedia

Tōgō Heihachirō
Tōgō Heihachirō - Wikipedia

Jacob Schiff
Jacob Schiff - Wikipedia


Akashi Motojiro(A Spy during the Russo-Japanese War)
Akashi Motojiro - Wikipedia
he was a general in the Imperial Japanese Army and the 7th Governor-General of Taiwan from 6 June 1918 to 26 October 1919.

Vladimir Lenin said " he was a real person who didemancipation of Russian from Russian Empire"
赤石元二郎 | NIKKEI225



after Meiji, the age of Taisho democracy called started.......though the age of fear was kept in the world
It is not what was gotten from the United States......

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

The answer is how to walk. it is called Nanba or namba.
it is a basis of old japanese martial arts.
ナンバ走り - Wikipedia
Aikido Journal

What you mean to say is that the way Japanese walked prior to the Meiji era was different from the manner you walked after? After watching the youtube video, it definitely looks like how we were taught to step during karate. I'm under the impression, though, that only 窶堙披?堋ｯ would walk like that.

The Treaty of Portsmouth was an enormous political watershed for the United States. Theodore Roosevelt wanted the United States to join world affairs as a "Great Power", and by mediating the agreement between Japan and Russia, he helped cement our status as an up-and-coming nation.

The Russo-Japanese War was won by Japan partially through the ineptitude of Russian military commanders at key battles in Liaodong, such as the siege of Port Arthur. The Japanese made few mistakes, and took full advantage of those the Russians made. Russian junior commanders were actually very good, but the upper-echelon generals and admirals weren't worth the metal pinned to their chests.

I did a lot of research into the Russo-Japanese War when I was reading ﾂ春窶堙個静｡ by ﾅｽO窶懌?｡ 窶燃窶ｹI窶｢v (in English, of course), as it plays a heavy role in the background of the story.

Off topic--caster, if you are even remotely interested in U.S. history (as you seem to be interested in history period), HBO is running a miniseries on John Adams, one of our Founding Fathers. I don't know if it is being aired in Japan, though. I have friends in Taiwan who get HBO, though.

 

[caster51]

I'm under the impression, though, that only ぶけ would walk like that.

most ppl walked like this, according to old ukiyoes..


they say Hikyaku(mail man) could run in 3~4 days from edo to Osaka

Off topic--caster, if you are even remotely interested in U.S. history (as you seem to be interested in history period), HBO is running a miniseries on John Adams, one of our Founding Fathers. I don't know if it is being aired in Japan, though. I have friends in Taiwan who get HBO, though.

thanks

 

[caster51]

Turkey and Japan at that time, 1900

 

[tokapi]

Another popular slogan during 明治維新 was 福澤諭吉の"和魂洋才 = Yamato spirit Western know-how ".

* [ 優れた西洋文化と遅れた日本文化 = Western culture's superiority & Japanese culture's backwardness ] という構図に反発する意味もあった。

和魂洋才 - Wikipedia

 

[caster51]

「興亜論」（Kouaron)
kaishu katsu announced 日清提携論( sino-japan alliance doctrine, japan-china- korea together and make the east asia union to resist Russian)
Katsu Kaishū - Wikipedia
it was called kouaron.
Tarui considerd before china-Japan alliance, japan must do amalgamation with korea equally...大東合邦論』（1885年）
樽井藤吉 - Wikipedia
yokichi Fukuzawa said " it is impossible
after sino-japan war, kouaron興亜論 lost that value.....
however ideology of kouaron was still existing as mainstream in japan at that time..

This koaron had a big influence on Korea.
李容九（一進会）was a believer of 「興亜論」
he hoped amalgamation with japan equally.
Iljinhoe - Wikipedia

a coutry that won against Russia(japan) and korea(lowest in asia) are going to an amalgamation eqauly.

they were so serious and demanded to japan

Ito was angry "Why should Japan amalgamate equally with Korea?"
so Japan suppressed 一進会 Through korean PM 李完用。
the obstacle that korean wanted was Ito ........though Ito seriously thought about Korea.


my thought....
However, a present Asian ideologist doesn't want to admit failing.
that is why they blam Fukuzawa's 脱亜論
South Korea is still parasitic to Japan by the use of an Asian principle.
Scenery doesn't change at all for 100 years.

 

[tokapi]

Japan started the revision negotiation of an unequal agreement again.Nevertheless,Western nations rejected the revision of the unequal treaty again.It was Britain most strongly opposed that.

Times said "We undo the chain that only Japan applied in babyhood in orient nations. There is a big distance between the baby and the adult. It is not time when it still revises the agreement now. "

Ahem,didn't Japan obtained favorable financings from Britain to built the Japanese Navy during this era.:?

Then,Japan whipped those snubbish Brits ...

Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse - Wikipedia

 

[tokapi]

a coutry that won against Russia ( japan ) and korea ( lowest in asia ) are going to an amalgamation equally.They were so serious and demanded to japan

伊藤博文 Ito Hirobumi was angry " Why should Japan amalgamate equally with Korea ? "

Ahem,伊藤博文 was no proponent of " mutual ancestry 日鮮同祖論 " theory

 

[tokapi]

I see,一進会 desired equal partnership in a federation more like that of Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

Austria-Hungary - Wikipedia

 

[tokapi]

It was not so difficult for concepts and ultra-fine field in the West to translate into Japanese beause of katakana and hiragana.

This is basis of your post,right ?


Sarah Cox, Washington University in St. Louis/Kokugakuin University. " Theories of Translation in Meiji Japan "

"Western Europe owes its civilization to translators." Though perhaps overstated, this assertion in L.G. Kelly's 1979 outline of translation theory, The True Interpreter, points to growing recognition in literary studies of the importance of literary cross-fertilization, the transfer of both content and form from one linguistic and cultural tradition to another, in the continuing vitality of national literatures. The power of translations has long been recognized in Meiji Japanese literary studies, with modern literary critics claiming " Meiji literature is the history of translations and their influence," or " The significance of the Meiji era rests more fully in translation ' (hon'yaku) and adaptation' (hon'an) than in original works' (sosaku). " The numerous translations created in Meiji Japan transformed and revitalized Japanese literature.

This paper examines theories of literary translation and adaptation in Meiji Japan, tracing a growing recognition of the significance of such endeavors. It examines, for example, Tsubouchi Shoyo's ideal of assimilation and appropriation of Western works through adaptations; Wakamatsu Shizuko's concept of translation as a means to import Western ideals of Christianity, particularly concerning the status of women and children; and Mori Ogai's desire to preserve "otherness" in translation. Yet within theories of translation as varied as these runs a unifying thread: namely, that translation is the resurrection of an alien thing in a native body in order not only to revitalize native literature but also to lead readers to a larger world outside of the boundaries of their own geographic or linguistic limitations. Meiji translators perceived themselves variously as not just borrowers and adapters but as creators of a new literature and a new literary consciousness, and as educators about a wider world, not only enriching the literary landscape but also their readers' experience

 

[caster51]

I found a book " Japan and korea" in English by Frank G. Carpenter.
about his travel story that was published 1902...
it is really interesting............
http://kindai.ndl.go.jp/scrpt/jgmWeb.dll?DispUrl?jp=41021479&vol=00000&koma=1&tp=0
日本と朝鮮 - 国立国会図書館デジタルコレクション
you need JuGeMuPlayer ver4.5 to see it
http://kindai.ndl.go.jp/index.html
National Diet Library

Times Past in Korea in 1923? by Frank G. Carpenter
Times Past in Korea

Japan and korea
"ú–{'Æ'©'N

 

[Golgo 13]

Great thread Caster, I learned a lot here. I wish you would post more if you have anything else.

 

[hungtakwai]

Your article is really GREAT!!! Can you further talk about the relationship between the rise of Militarism and the Parties Politics in the 20s?