Australian Government siding with Japanese Illegal whaling

[centrajapan]

It is not rubbish. Just because you don't like hearing something that you don't like to hear does not make it rubbish.

You are against Japanese whaling because of cultural preference and you support the ban on Japan which makes you a supporter of cultural imperialism.

 

[Chi65]

I don't like it if people try to put an false and unfitting shoe onto my feet, thats all, they will always get it back. Trying it nevertheless is violence and causes only laughter here in the end.

Wake up!

 

[centrajapan]

You probably are upset to be labeled a cultural imperialist but as I stated earlier you have racist attitudes if you are against Japanese whaling and as I also stated previously some people despite thinking they aren't racist do have racist attitudes without realizing them.

You wake up.

 

[Chi65]

Go on projecting your twisted mind, LOL, upset? Its funny to watch you. . .

Why don't you just read, whats there and not what YOU make out of it?
(in general)

 

[Sarapva]

You are against Japanese whaling because of cultural preference and you support the ban on Japan which makes you a supporter of cultural imperialism.

These are general assumptions, centrajapan - if you believe this, you should keep it to yourself. It doesn't help any discussions. We all have our opinions - it doesn't mean that because of them we automatically fall into a certain category. And if you believe it does, please keep that to yourself.

 

[centrajapan]

It's my opinion and I explain in details why I believe it to be so. The only answer I get is you wake up and personal insults and sicne she can't counter argue my argument without personal abuse it strengthens my argument even further.

You Sarapva have stated that you are a vegeterian and don't think it is worse to kill whales than cows making your stance different than Chi65.

However you also said that you were an environmentalist and since whaling is more eco friendly than beef then killing cows should be worse than killing whales if you are consitant in your views. No?

 

[Sarapva]

I don't know which is worse - but since this is a forum about whaling, I'm discussing whaling and not factory farms. If this was a thread about factory farms, I'd be stating my opinion to be against them.

 

[Chi65]

It's my opinion and I explain in details why I believe it to be so. The only answer I get is you wake up and personal insults and sicne she can't counter argue my argument without personal abuse it strengthens my argument even further.

That blind little boy can't be helped LOL. You have nothing to base your beliefs on, except from your made up ones, thus its not my part that has to explain. If anyone, then you, and you better ask yourself, why you do this game.
Do you know Zappa?
"its in your mihihihind"

A good discussion relates to the real written stuff, not to ignorances and projections, and after all, respect for the other side, not just from one side.
But who behaves like a . . .will eventually be handled like one.

Your wild vegetarian discussion could be read on another thread and it was more than clear, that all you wanted was another cheap, yes, cheap fight. boy oh boy. . .how "impressive" and

Never mind, since I know that you can be good, if you want, well, if. . .
have a smile

 

[centrajapan]

I don't know which is worse - but since this is a forum about whaling, I'm discussing whaling and not factory farms. If this was a thread about factory farms, I'd be stating my opinion to be against them

The reason why there are discussions on whaling is not because Japanese eat whales but because non Japan have a hard time with the fact that Japanese eat whales. This is because in some cultures whales are regarded as sacred animals. Where as in Japan they are not regarded in the same way as in many western countries.

That is why there are debates and that is why other countries want to make Japan stop hunting whales. They are putting their cultural preference on Japan who has a different cultural preference.

 

[centrajapan]

Japan is not arguing if killing whales is wrong or right. Japanese think it is right. If Japanese think it is right it is up to Japan to have that opinion. Japanese think it is right to eat whales so to be able to eat whales they come with scientific reasoning.

Stock numbers, growth rate of whales, and how many whales they can hunt and still make sure it is sustainable.

 

[Chi65]

The reason why there are discussions on whaling is not because Japanese eat whales but because non Japan have a hard time with the fact that Japanese eat whales. This is because in some cultures whales are regarded as sacred animals. Where as in Japan they are not regarded in the same way as in many western countries.
That is why there are debates and that is why other countries want to make Japan stop hunting whales. They are putting their cultural preference on Japan who has a different cultural preference.

This maybe partly a bit sideways, but I never questioned the koreans eating dog meat or the chinese even cats amongst more that we hardly can imagine, and uh, what were those roasted beetles in Korea? They do eat them, and for me its their business.
I couldn't, but on a walkabout with Aborigines I probably would, including ants and whatever.
As for India, there also should be some shruggings about our beef etc., I think. And it is much more likely, that in a very good Sushi restaurant I even had some fish, that I never heard of, or maybe even whale? How can I know?
I ate everything, much to the amusement and joy of the hosts.

Thus, for me that above question from you is none for me at all.
Sacred for some or not. And I said it clearly, if they do it for own use, eatings. . .
If you read again. . .
And there I have certain doubts about the limits of what the ocean plus inhabitants therein can take, since I am well aware of the magnetism of moneymaking and what harm it has done to fishing in general. Thus (and basicaly from there) any fixation on just one goal may well be dangerous, we had enough of other examples in the oceans.

And it is still in my mind, that it may not be such a bad idea to try other means too for making a living or trying to eat, additionally maybe or whatnot. The sea, as only one example, offers so much, and in Japan anyhow is more on the table than only whale. And that is also just an idea, knowing very well, that japanese people in general are creative minds and may not be badly advised (or better friendly reminded) to consider this, since I can hardly imagine, that the thoughts were not on the table already...It cannot be new amongst themselves as well.

Saying this is far from anything else but putting myself into their shoes and trying to think, what would I do then. Thats usually what friends do all the time, and no side is a racist because of this.
This last argument is still ridiculous and very narrowminded for me, combined with misbehaviour and misunderstandings it leaves a strange paranoid picture.
But it is not necessary, if one can exchange simple facts, as usual in good discussions.

I also like pigs, by the way, and yet I eat (only) some of their meat at times, although in general rather little amounts of meat. But that has several reasons. We had so many horror stories about bad meat here, the ways, animals were kept, and we had Chernobyl etc.

So, if a certain balance, care and health can be kept, no real problem for me (yet), but if it runs the danger of getting "out of hand", so to say, any which way, then better not. . .
Its an "if"-question for me.

And thats all there is.

 

[Sarapva]

I think there are probably some cultural misunderstandings on this subject, too, which is very normal on an international forum. No one is saying that someone else can't have an opinion - we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese people who believe whaling should continue, as well as plenty who believe it shouldn't. And the same with Australians, Americans, etc. We should be able to discuss without attacking each other.

 

[kame]

I think there are probably some cultural misunderstandings on this subject, too, which is very normal on an international forum. No one is saying that someone else can't have an opinion - we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm sure there are plenty of Japanese people who believe whaling should continue, as well as plenty who believe it shouldn't. And the same with Australians, Americans, etc. We should be able to discuss without attacking each other.

You can have an opinion that whaling is wrong. But that opinion, if it's a denial of the habit of hunting and eating whales per se, rather than scientific concern on sustainability of perticular whale species, is perceived as culturally prejudiced by those of us who eat whales as part of our lives. So when you express such culturally biased opinion (which you are entitled to), you should expect some harsh reactions (which we are entitled to).

Discussions of political maneuvers is another thing, because what governments and some NPOs actually act on the opinions of some people and have actual consequences to people's lives, like whether or not we can eat certain whales, or people getting physically hurt. So whether or not these actions are based on culturally biased opinion of the constituents is a valid topic of discussion. Everyone is entitled to opinions even if they are prejudicial or racial. But governments and big NPOs acting on such opinions would be wrong.

 

[kame]

And whether or not Japan will continue to whale in the future or how the culture of eating whales change should be up to the Japanese people. No one likes to be told how their culture should change by foreingners. What's happening in the middle east is largely due to few countries trying to impose their values too hastily.

For example, most Japanese think the lack of gun control in the US which kills far more humans (including many Japanese) than whales is totally stupid yet you don't see their government demanding tighter gun control in the US. If they do, I am sure American people would be furious to be criticized of their rights to carry guns to shoot people.

 

[Chi65]

As far as I can see, we have to do with whales, that don't "belong" to Japan, as their owners, I mean. Thus it is not only a question for the Japanese and insofar changes the picture, that tries to make it a japanese matter only. Its simply not. Sorry to say.
Just as one aspect to add.
Insofar the gun-example does not really work.

 

[Sarapva]

You can have an opinion that whaling is wrong. But that opinion, if it's a denial of the habit of hunting and eating whales per se, rather than scientific concern on sustainability of perticular whale species, is perceived as culturally prejudiced by those of us who eat whales as part of our lives. So when you express such culturally biased opinion (which you are entitled to), you should expect some harsh reactions (which we are entitled to).

I think the key term here, kame, is perceived when talking about cultural bias. I have no idea of culture when I oppose whale hunting. And I've said before that I don't have a problem with cultures that hunt whales to survive, whether they're in the U.S. or Japan. It's the large-scale hunts that do harm.

You have helped to put some light on how the Japanese perceive people opposing their whale hunting, and this would explain the hostility of the Japanese toward westerners video-taping their hunts. But I do think there is a misunderstanding here. In no way do I want to disrespect a culture, and I don't think I am. Would you not react so harshly if it were clear that there was no disrespect intended? My reasons of opposing whale hunting are the same reasons that I oppose any killing for profit. I don't think we should use animals that way.

 

[kame]

I think the key term here, kame, is perceived when talking about cultural bias. I have no idea of culture when I oppose whale hunting. And I've said before that I don't have a problem with cultures that hunt whales to survive, whether they're in the U.S. or Japan. It's the large-scale hunts that do harm.

A cultural practice does not have to be essential for survival in order for it to be protected. Allowing civilians to own assault weapons is not essential for survival, nor eating beef or other animals. I agree that excessive whaling should be regulated (which is the purpose of IWC) but the scale of sustainable whaling should be based on scientific grounds. There is no justification for limiting whaling to "traditional" scale if more can be hunted sustainably.

You have helped to put some light on how the Japanese perceive people opposing their whale hunting, and this would explain the hostility of the Japanese toward westerners video-taping their hunts. But I do think there is a misunderstanding here. In no way do I want to disrespect a culture, and I don't think I am. Would you not react so harshly if it were clear that there was no disrespect intended? My reasons of opposing whale hunting are the same reasons that I oppose any killing for profit. I don't think we should use animals that way.

I know you don't intend to, but that is not the important point because prejudice is not defined by how the offender feels. I have observed prejudice in both Japan and in US and in most cases the offenders have no clue why they are perceived prejudicial.

If you "oppose any killing for profit" and consistently stick to that value, that's an opinion that I can respect. But then, you argued that whaling is inhumane but you support "traditional whaling" which is as inhumane as any other whaling practice. If you oppose killing for profit, then you should stick to that reason and people would perceive that you are just one of those vegetarians that are opposed to all carnivours and not specifically targeting whale-eaters.

That would also make you opposed to most of the non-vegetarian world including your own country, and any argument based on such naive idealism is bound to go nowhere. People kill animals not only for food but also for medical research that has saved countless human lives. Does that make you opposed to drug companies and medical school researchers?

 

[kame]

And realistically, as I mentioned multiple times before, whale-eating is a very minor part of Japanese diet today. Many people speculate that if anything, less whales would be hunted if whaling is commercialized but government subsidy is lifted. There just isn't a market for 10,000 whales to be hunted for consumption in Japan, thanks to cheap imported beef. Most Japanese would agree that whale consumption will decline rather than increase in the long run.

Irrational pressure only serves to ignite the instinct to protect national interest and cultural defense mechanism.

Some people suspect that the environmental organizations love that Japan keep hunting whales, because anti-whaling campaign rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars. Clearly there are more urgent environmental issues than few thousand whales hunted each year like global warming. People talk global warming but don't act on it and pay generously to fight it. Opposing whaling doesn't hurt those people nor make them give up their SUVs yet they can feel good about themselves.

 

[Sarapva]

If you "oppose any killing for profit" and consistently stick to that value, that's an opinion that I can respect. But then, you argued that whaling is inhumane but you support "traditional whaling" which is as inhumane as any other whaling practice. If you oppose killing for profit, then you should stick to that reason and people would perceive that you are just one of those vegetarians that are opposed to all carnivours and not specifically targeting whale-eaters.

Does that make you opposed to drug companies and medical school researchers?

I agree that any kind of whale hunting is inhumane unless it can be done quickly and painlessly for the whale. I can accept "traditional" whaling because small villages are not hunting whales to sell to make a profit, and therefore are like any person or group of people who are hunting for the purpose of eating the meat themselves. When money comes into it (selling the meat like in the meat industry), other considerations like killing humanely get pushed to the side in the rush to sell as much meat as possible.

I'm certainly not "targeting" whale hunters - I'm just stating my beliefs on this forum, as it is a whaling forum. Maybe it is naive to be against any kind of selling animals for profit, but I really believe that to be wrong on a fundamental level. How much of this is cultural I don't know, and I do apologize if anyone perceives it to be an insult to their culture.

I'm not opposed to drug companies or medical researchers, but I do oppose testing or experimenting on animals. Animals can't volunteer to be experimented on like humans can (like for certain drugs). I know this is another area where I could be called naive, and maybe I am - but this is just what I feel to be true.