Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan?

[Glenski]

The moral and philosophical arguments about the views expressed in your post could go on forever. However, Japan has signed and ratified a UN TREATY against racism.

Is this supposed to justify anything? That treaty was signed over a decade ago, yet Japan has not enacted one single law to accompany it. None. They let discrimination happen at will and deal with it case by case. Their reason for no laws? They say they can't enforce them. B.S. on their human rights treaty.

well, the Patriot Act gives the US government the authority and right to do anything they want to us civilians and violates the Bill of Rights.

This is not the USA we are talking about, but if they can violate the Bill of Rights in the USA, why don't more people fight such an out and out act of breaching civil rights?

Ok, let me pose this to you: You are in Russia, you are an officer of the law. You happen to see a very dark skinned man walking down the street. Russia is predominantly white, and you see he cannot speak Russian. Would you not in the least bit go over and at least ask him, if not check his passport, if he was there legally?

This is not Russia, either. Besides, we are not talking about noticing whether someone cannot speak the language. That example is so strange that one can take the hypothetical anywhere with it. We are talking about printing/photoing people who have lived here for decades (sometimes) and had PR status, done nothing overtly wrong (including being noticed that they cannot speak the language, which in itself is not even a crime).

Well, you just said it's a case by case thing. To me, that just pretty much nullified your arguement on that point.

It can be case by case, but how about the times when people report the cops just sit there and pick only on the foreigners? What about that "case"?

Here's the thing, I didn't move the goalposts.

Yes you did, by going from generality to specific. Stop it, and we can have a sensible debate.

 

[JimmySeal]

this may surprise you,but 90% of all deeds(at least in the south) have a clause saying non-whites cannot buy the house in question. They ignore it, and are trying to get rid of it, but if one wanted to, they could use race as a factor and it'd hold in court. Always read the fine print.

Yeah, southerners do a lot of racist things, but they are still breaking US law if they discriminate against someone in a housing transaction, so that nullifies whatever racist scribblings are on the deed. I refer you to the Federal Fair Housing Act of 1968:

http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/housing/title8.htm
http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/

"It shall be unlawful to refuse to sell or rent after the making of a bona fide offer, or to refuse to negotiate for the sale or rental of, or otherwise make unavailable or deny, a dwelling to any person because of race, color, religion, sex, familial status, or national origin."
Again, I'm not too clear on Japanese law, but I'm pretty sure there's something like that somewhere.

Ok, let me pose this to you: You are in Russia, you are an officer of the law. You happen to see a very dark skinned man walking down the street. Russia is predominantly white, and you see he cannot speak Russian. Would you not in the least bit go over and at least ask him, if not check his passport, if he was there legally? I don't think anything when a cop asks a Mexican for his greencard, because they have a history of coming illegally.

Good god, man. And what if every police officer in Russia took that attitude and a dark skinned man, who was there for completely legitimate reasons, was stopped three times a day for every day he was in the country? Talk about an unfriendly welcome.

Here's the thing, I didn't move the goalposts. I gave an example of how they are going to phrase it if you call them on it and it goes to court.

Glenski said they can't refuse real estate legally, and you said they can. Even if it holds up in court, that doesn't make it legal, so you are wrong.

That is my point, a privately owned business/landowner can refuse anyone they want.

Wrong. See above.
The real estate market, along with many others, is tightly regulated by strict laws. It's not a free-for-all.

 

[Mike Cash]

Yes, they have stopped Japanese citizens before for bike registration. People have reported, however, that after they (foreigners) are stopped, then they ask the cops if Japanese are being stopped too, the cops say yes, but totally ignore any passing Japanese at that time on bikes. So, it's a case by case thing, and if you are stopped and are the only one who is stopped, it is suspiciously like discrimination, don't you agree?

They don't stop every bicycle coming down the street. They grab one, give him the works, let him go, and stop another one. While they're busy, numerous other bicycles tool along past the check point unimpeded. Hence, they wouldn't be likely to notice who got stopped before or after them and they come away thinking that only foreigners are getting stopped.

I'm here to tell you, many times I have been parked in my truck and watched bicycle check points on streets where no foreigners were passing through the area. People make out like this is some activity the police dreamed up just to hassle foreigners, and it just ain't so.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

It's kind of useless in my humble opinion to compare the US and Japan in terms of how they approach the topic of racism. Expanding on that heavily would probably upset some people and turn this into a poo-fling-fest but I'll allude to it very briefly. America has (and to no fault of its current civil populous so much as previous generations) a history of overt, entrenched racism. I'm not saying Japan hasn't also played foul at times, but really, no one was burning crosses or lynching people in Japan last I checked. I'm not saying everyone's grandfather here did that either, but let's be frank, it happened. We're not talking war crimes here, this is just the day to day.

So, America has had to take steps to supress this kind of racism and hatred. The civil liberties and women's rights movements took place, and today, especially in larger urban centers, America has progressed and worked hard at ensuring people of all creeds enjoy the same rights. There is thusly a well-founded sense of achievment to be had there and it's supported every day by the multiculural American popluation. Institutionally however there are still some things happening that lean a little to closely to times of olde vs. the current needs of the people. It's a daily struggle.

The same thing could be said of Japan; some policies and attitudes are outdated. However, what social movements or influences necessitate the Japanese government to proactively catch up and somehow weed out what little racism stll exists? Who would that serve? It would be for the benefit of but a few foreigners here and there at most. The system functions for 98% of the population and also works for most of that remaining 2% as well. When we think about it, it's really a small slice of the population who are held back by 'the system'.

This is in my opinion 'the big picture', and while we certainly have a right to be upset about individual acts of discrimination and prejudice, Japan as a country is not at fault as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Taiko666]

Again, I'm not too clear on Japanese law, but I'm pretty sure there's something like that somewhere.

There's nothing like that in Japanese law. It's perfectly legal to discrimate against someone based on any of the things you mentioned.

This really is the crux of the matter.

There's a small coffee shop near my flat, and they were recently advertising for staff.

"Part time staff required.
Japanese woman, under 45 years old."

Which of course is illegal on 3 counts in most developed countries...

 

[JimmySeal]

@Taiko666

I s'pose I stand corrected on that point, then. Unless anyone has any evidence to the contrary.

 

[diceke]

There's nothing like that in Japanese law. It's perfectly legal to discrimate against someone based on any of the things you mentioned.

This really is the crux of the matter.

There's a small coffee shop near my flat, and they were recently advertising for staff.

"Part time staff required.
Japanese woman, under 45 years old."

Which of course is illegal on 3 counts in most developed countries...

Huh?

The Constitution of Japan, article 14:
"All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic, or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin. "

 

[Mike Cash]

Huh?
The Constitution of Japan, article 14:
"All of the people are equal under the law and there shall be no discrimination in political, economic, or social relations because of race, creed, sex, social status or family origin. "

Read it in Japanese:

第14条 すべて国民は、法の下に平等であつて、人種、信条、性別、社会的身分又は門地により、政治的、経済的又は社会的関係において、差別されない。

It says, "kokumin".....not "ningen"

 

[Goldiegirl]

What's the difference between "kokumin" and "ningen"? Also, what would change with the use of either word? I'm curious...

 

[Grandpa Frank]

My guess.....

a Japanese citizen has rights and a non-citizen/gaijin is up the creek without a paddle; but just a guess.

 

[epigene]

a Japanese citizen has rights and a non-citizen/gaijin is up the creek without a paddle; but just a guess.

Yep, close--I guess.

Kokumin means Japanese citizens
Ningen means people or human beings

 

[Glenski]

I'm not saying Japan hasn't also played foul at times, but really, no one was burning crosses or lynching people in Japan last I checked. I'm not saying everyone's grandfather here did that either, but let's be frank, it happened. We're not talking war crimes here, this is just the day to day.

You didn't happen so see this recent and overt act of racism, did you? (Gaijin Hanzai magazine) GAIJIN HANZAI mag | debito.org In essence, your burning cross.

Or this story on a foreigner held in prison since November 2006 without speedy trial and so far with practically zero evidence.
http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=537

Or this story about how a foreigner was denied hospitalization after a scuffle with the police, was turned down in court because one of his witnesses was a foreigner, and who is now crippled.
www.debito.org: Valentine Lawsuit for Tokyo police brutality and negligence (court defeat)

The Holiday Sports Club chain routinely bars foreigners because (they say) foreigners "cannot read/write their name and address in Japanese." Oddly enough, they have an English rule book...

Or the signs that were posted near ATMs showing only foreigners robbing people.

Or the numerous signs reading "Japanese Only". www.debito.org: THE ROGUE'S GALLERY: Photos of places which refuse non-Japanese in Japan
What's next? Sit at the back of the bus? Use separate toilets?

The constitution says one thing, and Japan's signature on the anti-discrimination treaty says the same, but we all know there is blatant discrimination here, and Japan seems to be doing little to enforce measures against it.

Kokumin means people of a nation, or its citizens.
Ningen means humans or mankind.

So, the constitution itself is discriminating when you see it referring only to its own citizens, not visitors, long-term residents, and the like.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

You didn't happen so see this recent and overt act of racism, did you? (Gaijin Hanzai magazine) GAIJIN HANZAI mag | debito.org In essence, your burning cross.

Business takes advantage of the less industrialized and desperate peoples of the world every day. I do not think this is indicative of an intense hatred of the Chinese race, I think its business taking advantage of a loophole situation.

Or this story on a foreigner held in prison since November 2006 without speedy trial and so far with practically zero evidence.
http://www.debito.org/index.php/?p=537

That's quite horrible and unjustified but it still doesn't amount to a widescale attack on foreigners.

I'm not going to run down the list and deny every point you've made there, but I'm not in disagreement with you either. There are definitely some horrible things happening these days in Japan and all across the world.

The crux of my point was that at one time, overt and blatant racial biggotry dominated all levels of discourse in America. (I'm not here to criticize America, but rather point out influences.) As a result of its past, we now have this whole issue of reparations, trying to right the wrong, and we had a concordant movement in the 60's to eradicate vestiges of civil injustice in the system that gave rise to many of today's NGO's and lobby groups. Japan simply hasn't had the same influences or the same need to make race an issue in their country. Who is the NAACP going to fight for in Japan?

Now is the system a little lop-sided, outdated and not quite leak proof? Yes like most bureaucratic machinery it's built and maintained by those who control old money, and the trickle down effect is that there is a lot of room for error. But the need for Japan to overhaul its constitution and bring it closer to something like America's or Canada's wouldn't guarantee anyone anything. Racism still exists in the West despite having some of the most advanced democracies in the world. As I see it there is no fault with Japan the country, the nation itself.

I maintain that incidences like the ones people talk about here and the ones in those stories are individuals taking advantage of situations and acting out, they're isolated, it's not systemic. Even if you changed that one word from 'citizen' to 'human' you'd still have situations like the ones you mentioned happening from time to time. They're called glass ceilings.

 

[JimmySeal]

Business takes advantage of the less industrialized and desperate peoples of the world every day. I do not think this is indicative of an intense hatred of the Chinese race, I think its business taking advantage of a loophole situation.

I can't say for sure but I think the racist incident that Glenski was actually referring to is the the publication of Gaijin Crime File, which was stocked in magazine racks throughout the country about 9 months ago:
Racism in Japan - Wikipedia

 

[diceke]

Read it in Japanese:
It says, "kokumin".....not "ningen"

Huh? Read it in English. The authors of the documents were Americans, and the original draft was written in English.

I'm not a lawyer, but seriously, unless foreigners are granted extraterritorial rights and being exempt from the jurisdiction of the local constitution and laws, there is no reason that this particular article doesn't apply to foreigners.

 

[diceke]

I can't say for sure but I think the racist incident that Glenski was actually referring to is the the publication of Gaijin Crime File, which was stocked in magazine racks throughout the country about 9 months ago:
Racism in Japan - Wikipedia

Hmmm, I wonder why so many foreigners support this book? If you are against racism, please, don't buy the book!!

https://www.amazon.co.jp/%E9%A9%9A%E6%84%95%E3%81%AE%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E8%A3%8F%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%AB%E2%80%95%E5%A4%96%E4%BA%BA%E7%8A%AF%E7%BD%AA%E7%99%BD%E6%9B%B82007/dp/4754256182/249-5260729-4825127?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1191552059&sr=8-1

この商品を買った人はこんな商品も買っています
Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought

Lonely Planet Hiking in Japan (Lonely Planet Hiking in Japan) (Lonely Planet Hiking in Japan) Mason Florence; Craig McLachlan; Richard Ryall; Anthony Weersing; Chris Roethorn
(1) ￥ 2,475
Japan Rising: The Resurgence of Japanese Power And Purpose Kenneth B. Pyle
￥ 3,342
Princess Masako: Prisoner of the Chrysanthemum Throne Ben Hills
(15) ￥ 2,946
THE JAPANESE TRADITION ~日本の形~ DVD ~ ラーメンズ
(11) ￥ 3,864

 

[Taiko666]

Huh? Read it in English. The authors of the documents were Americans, and the original draft was written in English.

The original draft. Exactly. The version in use is the Japanese version.

I'm not a lawyer, but seriously, unless foreigners are granted extraterritorial rights and being exempt from the jurisdiction of the local constitution and laws, there is no reason that this particular article doesn't apply to foreigners.

And yet by judicial precedence, and by the experiences of thousands of foreigners in Japan, it quite clearly does not apply to foreigners. Come to think of it, in practise it doesn't apply to Japanese citizens either.

 

[diceke]

Read it in Japanese:
It says, "kokumin".....not "ningen"

But in Japanese, it looks like there is no clear differentiation being made when the article says "kokumin" (citizen) or "nanibito" (any person within jurisdiction, which may imply anyone, citizen or not). It's used interchangeably. Maybe it's kind of similar to the US Bill of Rights or the amendments in the way it is worded. It's open to interpretation. If the bad translation is to blame, the government can amend it.

Amendment XIV
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;

nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

[Glenski]

Business takes advantage of the less industrialized and desperate peoples of the world every day. I do not think this is indicative of an intense hatred of the Chinese race, I think its business taking advantage of a loophole situation.

bakakanadajin, you've completely lost me with the above.

Jimmy Seal,
You are right. I meant that horrible book. Foreigners did not support it, except to buy it just to see what was inside for the sake of shock value and to report it to the publisher, outlet, and main store office. It worked, too. Amazon stopped selling it, and so did the stores.

I'm not going to run down the list and deny every point you've made there, but I'm not in disagreement with you either. There are definitely some horrible things happening these days in Japan

Well, since this web site is about Japan, I'm not going to deal with the rest of the world. I live in Japan, and I post here because things in Japan affect me here. Thanks for agreeing me, but...

Japan simply hasn't had the same influences [as the USA] or the same need to make race an issue in their country.

This IMO is a very lame way of making excuses for the poor treatment foreigners get in Japan. You should really be ashamed of trying to put this point in a serious debate. Let's stop comparing the USA with Japan, ok?

the need for Japan to overhaul its constitution and bring it closer to something like America's or Canada's wouldn't guarantee anyone anything.

Who's talking about overhauling the constitution? They signed an international treaty, but they refuse to enforce laws to accompany that signing. Hypocritical, and consequently damaging.

Racism still exists in the West despite having some of the most advanced democracies in the world. As I see it there is no fault with Japan the country, the nation itself.

Again, I'd like to stay off the topic of the west. And, I guess we have to agree to disagree with the "no fault". You really surprise me, though. You agree there are racial/discriminatory problems here, yet you speak out of the other side of your head by saying "no fault".

I maintain that incidences like the ones people talk about here and the ones in those stories are individuals taking advantage of situations and acting out, they're isolated, it's not systemic.

Again, I totally disagree.

 

[diceke]

And yet by judicial precedence, and by the experiences of thousands of foreigners in Japan, it quite clearly does not apply to foreigners. Come to think of it, in practise it doesn't apply to Japanese citizens either.

Huh?
By judicial precedence, anyone within jurisdiction, citizen or not, is entitled to the legal protections of basic human rights. See the Supreme Court decision in the MacLean(spelling?) case, 1978.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

@Glenski:

Re: the part where I lost you. We've gotta get our definitions sorted out here first. Japanese businessmen taking advantage of Chinese migrant workers isn't 'racism'. That was my point, that the article you posted didn't demonstrate racism so much as it demonstrated problems with how advanced countries treat less advanced ones. That article had very little to do with race, aside from mentioning the fact that the workers happened to be Chinese. If you wanted to spin an incident like that racially you'd have to demonstrate to me clearly that those workers were targeted and treated poorly specifically because they were Chinese. If you're going to call things like this racist you'd have to call the North American Free Trade Agreement 'racist' too since it makes good use of cheap Mexican labour.

I'm not defending Japan so much as I'm trying to point out that the influences between Japan and other countries (countries which people compare Japan to as an example, so they get included in the discussion) are different. Therefore, the bigger picture must be examined to determine if Japan is a racist country. The reason I took the discussion to that level is because instead of acts of discrimination against foreigners, this thread started to take a turn towards issues of the constitution, Japan as a country, comparing it to other countries, and so on.

Also, to be clear, I don't agree with or support or want to ignore what acts of prejudice do actually take place, (i.e. talk out two sides of my head) by giving Japan a clean bill of health and saying 'the problem isn't systemic, don't blame Japan'. What I want to do is just support my opinion, which is that these acts are isolated and stem from individual people. It's not reflective of systemic issues within Japan as a nation.

 

[JimmySeal]

@bakaKanadajin
You and Glenski are talking about two vastly different things.
His link was pointing to Arudo Debito's blog about this publication:
Racism in Japan - Wikipedia
the top entry in that blog happens to be about Chinese migrant workers and at the very end you can see how that incident relates to the publication (namely, despite the writers' rampant racism, that incident was so bad even the makers of the magazine were sympathetic towards the Chinese).
But the point is, Glenski was talking about this book, not migrant workers. This is the burning cross he was talking about:
Racism in Japan - Wikipedia

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Ah I see. I got caught up in reading the article itself and failed to scroll down to the other stuff.

Well you won't find a disagreement from me on that book, it's definitely fear mongering hate literature. My only response to that is, much like the average citizen in our home countries, I really think most Japanese people are smarter than that and it's not indicative of any national movement or widespread, accelerating social trend. There's hate literature available here too, although it's often stamped out quicker because there are stronger lobby groups on the watch. Again, that stems from the history and legacy of trying to eradicate racism and make up for the mistakes of the past.

At the end of the day I have to draw upon my own personal experiences here as far as why I truly think racism in Japan is isolated and not systemic, much like everyone else is doing, and naturally that's getting some mixed reactions because not everyone has been treated the same way and there are a few horror stories out there. At the risk of sounding redundant, for me personally, I think that only further underlines the point however that despite these pockets of extremists and nationalists, overall, racist and prejudiced attitudes aren't the norm in Japan.

 

[JimmySeal]

Yes, you're certainly right that that magazine in all likelihood does not reflect the general sentiment of the Japanese people. But the fact that it wasn't squashed before it ever hit stores is an indication of a significant apathy towards racism. I saw this publication with my own eyes stocked on the shelves of my local convenience store.

Not sure if you know this, but Japanese schools (at least superficially) make a big deal about human rights. As soon as I arrived at my school I started seeing the word ﾂ人ﾅ陳? everywhere. It's taught in classes and many schools hold yearly "human rights fairs." But from what I can tell, the subject matter does not stray far from: burakumin, handicapped people, and lepers. You'd think when they take such pride in teaching their kids about human rights, they'd make it a point to be aware of issues beyond the boundaries of Japanese citizenry.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

JimmySeal:

Yes I think there's definitely a different approach to censorship and hate literature being taken in Japan vs. other industrialized nations. I'm not entirely convinced that the fact it hit store shelves automatically entails any apathy or tacit approval though, so much as its perhaps an unwillingess on the part of the Japanese to heavily censor their books and literature and more importantly a lack of specific lobbyists and interest groups supressing it. (And that lack of interest groups or at least the strength of what exists stems from the discussion on past influences and events).

Ultimately, I wouldn't measure racism based on the fact the book exists but rather on how many people we reasonably assume to agree with the principles presented within. That book couldn't have been the work of more than a handful of far right-wingers, surely not a healthy cross section of the Japanese public.