Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?

[Glenski]

caster,
You'd better talk to your fellow citizens (if indeed you are Japanese) about the so-called right for any country to have nuclear weapons. Go ahead and make a speech on that in the streets of Hiroshima and Nagasaki next week and see how long you last.

And, by the way, "protecting" one's country by a buildup of nuclear weapons is pretty much what the Cold War was all about, or are you too young to realize that?

frosty,
Yeah, the US military gets a bad rap from publicized "antics" of its juvenile-minded soldiers. Rape, robbery, assault. Such zany antics, eh? On the other hand, less sarcastic, look at it this way. There is a web site put up by people in Okinawa that tries to show huge numbers of crimes committed by the US military, so that people will force it to leave. Sorry, but if you examine the percentages of US military personnel that commit every one of those crimes, and compare it to the percentage of Japanese there, you get a higher figure for the locals than the military. The US "antics" get more press, and that is why people get upset.

Sukotto wrote:

Would NKorea still try to develop nuclear WEAPONS,
if the US had not invaded Iraq which was not involved in any attack on the US and did NOT have nuclear weapons?

Simple answer... yes. Il is crazy and power-mad.

 

[pipokun]

Sorry, but if you examine the percentages of US military personnel that commit every one of those crimes, and compare it to the percentage of Japanese there, you get a higher figure for the locals than the military. The US "antics" get more press, and that is why people get upset.

It is a bit fairer when you compare crimes by Japanese soldiers outside Japan or in Okinawa.

 

[Glenski]

It is a bit fairer when you compare crimes by Japanese soldiers outside Japan or in Okinawa.

Are you saying Japanese soldiers commit fewer crimes (on a percentage basis) than Okinawa locals?

 

[pipokun]

Sorry for my English.
I just wanted to say...
For a bit fair argument, please compare crimes by the US force with the ones by the Japanese Self Defence Force in Okinawa or outside their country.
Or just check how many civilians are jailed in both countries.

I am so scared if Japanese soldiers would gang-rape a girl in your country.

 

[Eugeniu]

I don't even know what to vote.

 

[Sukotto]

Sukotto wrote:

Would NKorea still try to develop nuclear WEAPONS,
if the US had not invaded Iraq which was not involved in any attack on the US and did NOT have nuclear weapons?

Simple answer... yes. Il is crazy and power-mad.

I don't necessarily agree.

What about the Sunshine Policy between N&S Korea?
What about N&S making peace all by themselves including cultural & sports
exchanges, increased trade, family visits for the first time in decades, etc...
before the Bush administration spoke these words together in public "axis of evil" and "North Korea" in the same sentence?

I believe South Koreans disagree.


Kim Jong Il is always called "crazy". Then they point to his vast movie collection, his elevator shoes, and crazy wild wickedly rad hair-do.
Woop-d. Seems like your average middle-aged guy with aging issues to me.
Or like any other national leader for that matter...
On second thought, maybe he is crazy.

 

[Calchas]

The cold war is over. I think our soldiers should be pulled out of Japan as it can now afford to protect it's own borders.

I am less concerned about local issues (crime) then I am about the cost of keeping our forces in Japan and where they might be put to better use.

 

[centrajapan]

USA should leave Japan and Okinawa ASAP and also Iraq.

 

[w1ngzer0]

Should USA leave? no. What do you think China,NK,SK, and the rest of asia would do to Japan once we leave? A whole lota bad things.

My roomate made a good example of this. USA should be doing business with canada and south america. They are closer and why would you make enemies with your neighbors. That's all you see in the news is illegals comming into america. Next to iraq and bush being stupid.

Anyway, Japan and europe is cool and all but we could do business with places a lot closer and save major $$$.

 

[Pavel123]

I think that the USA army should leave Japan because it reduces stress, and it reduces complaints about low pay.

 

[centrajapan]

US can still be an ally to Japan. If US must absolutely protect Japan they can do that from US. You don't see American bases all over Europe do you? Yet most western European countries are member of NATO. The reason why US wants bases is because of their own geo political interests.

 

[Sukotto]

US can still be an ally to Japan. If US must absolutely protect Japan they can do that from US. You don't see American bases all over Europe do you? Yet most western European countries are member of NATO. The reason why US wants bases is because of their own geo political interests.

I'm willing to bet the US still does have bases throughout Europe, even though the cold war is over - which was also the very reason for the existence of NATO. In the 90s there were some fighter jet pilots playing hot shot in Italy (or were they training? i do not remember) and tried flying under some gondola cars. The plane snapped the wires and killed those in the car.

There are still bases in Germany for sure. I know people who were stationed there or flew in and out of there on the way to from Iraq.
Still, I've heard stories of some people wondering what they were guarding in West Germany after the fall of the Soviet Union and Soviet troops had gone home.

We only really hear about the bases if there is some sort of tragedy or crime that occurs connected with the bases. It might surprise you to hear the US has over 700 known/admitted military bases and installations in over 130 different countries. (according to Chalmers Johnson in his "Sorrows of Empire")


Closing down those bases does not mean the countries or peoples have to be enemies. How would you feel if there was a military base of another country on the outskirts of town, or even right in the heart of it, with hundreds or thousands of foreigners who do not speak your language, understand your culture, nor even care to?

 

[centrajapan]

I'm willing to bet the US still does have bases throughout Europe

I think there are some US bases in Germany and not so many other places in Europe. Germany is cutting down on US millitary presence, I think its about the same in Japan. Hopefully they will be opening new bases in Iraq so that they can go there too.

 

[dark_secrester]

I voted that it yes should leave. However, I think it should leave when North Korea stops testing stuff.

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

I voted that it yes should leave. However, I think it should leave when North Korea stops testing stuff.

Aha! Yes, this I agree with.

However, I can't help but consider the current controversy over Japanese military strength and the whole thing with the old (and new) Prime Minister. Many nations wagged their fingers at Japan when they didn't commit troops to Iraq in 1991, ignoring the fact that in their constitution (which the U.S. wrote) it says they formally renounce war.

The committal of troops to Afghanistan has raised a lot of tension, both at home politically, and abroad in Korea, China, and Taiwan, especially because the Japanese supposedly renounced war. They essentially turned to the United States in order for them to have military protection. Should something happen, American troops are to be committed to defending Japanese soil against the first wave of enemy soldiers (whomever they might be).

Whatever happens, in my opinion, the fence-sitting must stop. If the U.S. maintains a military presence, it should be because the Japanese still renounce war, and the rest of the world should respect that. If they feel that it is time to rebuild their strength, the U.S. should reduce their presence in Okinawa.

 

[Sukotto]

I think there are some US bases in Germany and not so many other places in Europe. Germany is cutting down on US millitary presence, I think its about the same in Japan. Hopefully they will be opening new bases in Iraq so that they can go there too.

The US is actually building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq.
Some of the democratic party in the us congress repeatedly tried to pass some laws forbidding permanent US bases in Iraq, but they all failed.
THAT was the real "mission accomplished". Successfully getting INTO Iraq. The military-industrial-congressional complex needs its nutrients of used weapons and an endless list of potential threats (boogie-men) in order to keep on going.

The bases remain in Japan, 75% of which are at Okinawa, not because NKorea wants to take over the world, or even that portion of it, but for the sheer maintenance of the military-industrial-congressional complex.

If the US was not in that part of the world would N&S Korea fight?
At this point in history I do not believe they would.
Nor do I believe NKorea would try to attack Japan.
What would they have to gain?
Dictators are always paranoid, and with the US attacking a country (Iraq) which posed no threat to it or even to its neighbors (Iran, nor Kuwait feared Iraq at the time of invasion), nor even had any nukes or other such WMDs, is it any wonder NKorea would try to at least make it look like they were creating a deterant?

Why would NKorea want to attack Japan again?

 

[GodEmperorLeto]

Sukotto, please, if you can't discuss something without rubbing your partisan agenda in everybody's face, then SHUT THE HECK UP. This is about Japan. Not about Iraq, or how much you hate Bush, or how you can't wait for Hillary to become president for a 3rd term. Check your baggage at the door, or go post on moveon.org.

Now, as for the relevant stuff you had to say:

If the US was not in that part of the world would N&S Korea fight?
At this point in history I do not believe they would.
Nor do I believe NKorea would try to attack Japan.
What would they have to gain?
Dictators are always paranoid, and with the US attacking a country (Iraq) which posed no threat to it or even to its neighbors (Iran, nor Kuwait feared Iraq at the time of invasion), nor even had any nukes or other such WMDs, is it any wonder NKorea would try to at least make it look like they were creating a deterant?

Why would NKorea want to attack Japan again?

First, the Korean War never ended. A ceasefire is not a treaty, and North Korea and South Korea are not defined as political entities by a formal peace treaty, hence, they do not recognize one-another.

As for Japan, the North Korean government provides asylum to members of the Japanese Communist League/Red Army Faction, who hijacked a Japanese plane back in 1970. The KNCA is regularly claiming that minor statements made in American, Japanese, and South Korean politics and news as "declarations of war" and is constantly rattling its saber. Half the reason the Japanese have been considering removing Article 9 from their constitution is because they are afraid of N. Korea.

As for creating a deterrant, the North Koreans have been pursuing nuclear capabilities for years. In 1991, the U.S. withdrew its nuclear arsenal from S. Korea, and despite attempts by Bill Clinton, against Republican opposition, to negotiate with N. Korea, they still tested an ICBM by flying it over Japan and claiming it was a "satellite launch" in August, 1998, scaring the crap out of Japan. But Taepodong-1 missiles are not built to launch satellites.

I don't know what Kim Jong Il thinks he has to gain. Personally, I think he wants to keep his cushy lifestyle, and thinks that if he scares the rest of the world enough, and brainwashes his own people enough, he can keep his position of privilege.

 

[centrajapan]

USA should change their name to United States of Human Right Violations.

 

[deathtokanji]

Japan has the manpower, the technical skill and the wealth to care for themselves. We can't babysit them forever because we fear they will repeat 1931-1945.

 

[Sukotto]

Sukotto, please, if you can't discuss something without rubbing your partisan agenda in everybody's face, then SHUT THE HECK UP. This is about Japan. Not about Iraq, or how much you hate Bush, or how you can't wait for Hillary to become president for a 3rd term. Check your baggage at the door, or go post on moveon.org.
Now, as for the relevant stuff you had to say:

My posts were about Japan, "US forces in Japan".
As this thread is titled.
"Is it time for US Force to leave Japan?"
yes? no? maybe?
But also why?
Japan and the eastern Asia are not in a bubble.
So I posted some things as to why I believe things are the way they are.




Why should I support moveon.org which supported the pro-war John Kerry or Hillary Clinton who has stated US troops may be in Iraq even at the end of her four year term if she is elected?


So the other right-wing of the one big corporate imperial war ruling party that runs the empire doesn't look like it will get out of Iraq any time soon.
This may not hold well for the people of Okinawa.
It is unlikely they would support an end to occupation of land at Okinawa either.

On the other hand, ending an imperial outpost at Okinawa (and such changes are typically do not happen because of some sort of enlightened leader but by the work of ordinary people) might just hasten the end of the illegal, criminal occupation of Iraq and also maybe empire.


If I say Okinawa is an imperial outpost of empire,
and X reasons are why it should end,
I believe that is perfectly legitimate within the framework of this thread.
So I give reasons for why I believe empire.
The war of aggression on the people of Iraq is one piece of evidence of that.
One may disagree with the strength of evidence and that is fine.

 

[Glenski]

Sorry for my English.
I just wanted to say...
For a bit fair argument, please compare crimes by the US force with the ones by the Japanese Self Defence Force in Okinawa or outside their country.
Or just check how many civilians are jailed in both countries.
I am so scared if Japanese soldiers would gang-rape a girl in your country.

So, you really didn't answer my question.

First of all, don't use the NUMBER of crimes committed by anyone (soldiers or civilians). That is a poor way of comparing. Use PERCENTAGES. For example, I can show you a web site made by Okinawans who actually try to prove that the military there should be removed (for one reason) because they commit so MANY crimes. Key word is MANY (ie, a NUMBER). Yes, they do, but if you compare the PERCENTAGE of crimes that many people commit with the PERCENTAGE committed by Japanese, you will see that the US crime count is lower. So, in essence, the Japanese people are more criminal in nature than the US military. But, just because the (admittedly stupid) soldiers go out and commit crimes in a foreign land, they are more open to the media exposure.

By the way, in relation to another of your points above, just how many Japanese Self-defense positions are there around the world anyway? The USA is practically everywhere, so once again, going by sheer NUMBERS, you will see something different compared to the Japanese military abroad.

USA should change their name to United States of Human Right Violations.

If so, they would have to add Japan as the 51st state in that category.

 

[centrajapan]

If so, they would have to add Japan as the 51st state in that category.

Japan dont go around torturing Arabs for a start or bomb civilians and send illiterate 18 year olds to gang rape 12 year olds.

 

[Grandpa Frank]

Hummm???

Looks like centrajapan has forgot what the US did for his country and it's ruling family during WWII. You might be goose-stepping and saying sigheil if the US hadn't been around to pull Norway's feet out of the fire back then. But I guess remembering the good things the US did doesn't fit your hate hard-on for the US now. It seems the only people you hate more than Americans , are the anti-whaling group.

Uncle Frank

 

[Glenski]

Japan dont go around torturing Arabs for a start or bomb civilians and send illiterate 18 year olds to gang rape 12 year olds.

No, but they did sign the 1995 international treaty against human rights discrimination, yet...

they have yet (12 years later, mind you) to enact a single law to uphold that treaty. They brush off such a statement by saying it would be "hard to enforce." What is the point in signing the treaty, then?! All it does is make Japan look like a hypocrite.

Meanwhile, companies are allowed to put up "Japanese Only" signs, magazines are allowed to publish outrageous issues citing "gaijin crime", foreign teachers are not given the same contracts as their Japanese counterparts with identical credentials, Prime Ministers continue to visit Yasukuni Shrine, government officials acknowledge then deny the existence of comfort women, seals get citizenship (yes!) while permanent residents have to be fingerprinted upon their return from an overseas trip (and are still called "visitors"), it takes decades before the government even admits to treating its own citizens (lepers in this case) horribly, allows criminals like Fujimori to enter the country but won't let some spouses of Japanese go through the same line in immigration, etc.

One does not have to bomb civilians, torture prisoners, or rape children to be labeled a human rights violator. But then again, as Uncle Frank alluded to, there was the Nanking massacre and military Unit 731 and comfort women... so I guess there was bomnbing, torture, and rape in Japan's black history after all, too.

 

[centrajapan]

Looks like centrajapan has forgot what the US did for his country and it's ruling family during WWII. You might be goose-stepping and saying sigheil if the US hadn't been around to pull Norway's feet out of the fire back then.

While I think many in Europe are thankful fr American sacrficies I doubt most Europeans go around believeing if it wasn for Americans Europe would still have been under Nazi occupation. Besides in Norway if we are to be accurate there were no Americans. It was the Russians who liberated Norway.

But still, this does not give them a green light to do what they have been doing the past 60 years.

The crimes which Japan comits are far less than what US does. Good to get some perspective here. I will agree that Japan has lots of faults but again compared with USA they are minute.

I hope Americans will leave Japan one day. And a person who volunterily joins Uncle Sam neends to get their head examined.