Language barrier and acceptance

You can catch someone rambling on and on about Japanese people insisting on talking to him in English (and such) here.


The ironic thing is that he's posting to a Japanese bulletin board ... but he's writing in English. 😅 Maybe he's not so confident of his Japanese skills as he's making out. 😄

Give hime a break, Paul! He's had a hard life, and he's got it all twisted around.

I think he's just too obsessed with the idea of learning Japanese.
So obsessed, so eager to prove his achievement, that the friendly Japanese who offered to use English is seen as a threat to his ego, seen as "SELFISH." I think he's deluded.

Poor guy! He's created his own hell, and now he's being laughed at for it!
But you know Paul since we're on the topic of "tolerance," couldn't we include him, too? What do you think?
 
But you know Paul since we're on the topic of "tolerance," couldn't we include him, too? What do you think?

Oh, I don't know that we're laughing at him /that/ hard.

I wouldn't even have smirked if he'd at least tried to write that in Japanese.
 
Oh, I don't know that we're laughing at him /that/ hard. I wouldn't even have smirked if he'd at least tried to write that in Japanese.

Since you mention languages, I went back to examine his English; it isn't that good, either. I mean for a native-born British. Cockney, somehow. Maybe he's ashamed of his strange English, so hates the friendly Japanese for reminding him? Actually, after all his struggle with the "selfish" Japanese, he seems to have lost all his ability to communicate in Japanese, especially on a Japanese board.

On second thought, I begin to think the whole thing was made up, plagiarized from some stand-up comedy. It's a joke, Paul, definitely. They got you!
 
On second thought, I begin to think the whole thing was made up, plagiarized from some stand-up comedy. It's a joke, Paul, definitely. They got you!

Nah, it's far too rambling to be a stand-up comedy - he'd be bottled off the stage before he got to the end.

You're right about the English not being very good - but lots of people write lousy English nowadays.
 
Nah, it's far too rambling to be a stand-up comedy - he'd be bottled off the stage before he got to the end. You're right about the English not being very good - but lots of people write lousy English nowadays.

You're right. I guess I was wrong about that, but it's funny how people's eagerness to practice a new language can backfire, even unto (mild) hatred.
Also, clear and succinct language doesn't come naturally. Especially if you're writing in a foreign language. I'd like to read your Japanese site, but I'll have to wait till I learn Japanese. Should have done it in school.

I have a sadder story... an American and an Australian turning to Japanese to understand each other.

You can't be serious, mate?
 
by lexico, My first language is Korean, and I barely understand all the 8 major dialects of my people. (People in the sense that I am not excluding N. Korea.) My Grandfather spoke the NorthWestern dialect, and I remember in my youth that I could never understand him very well.

I had a Korean friend who tried to teach me how to say "pa" sound in Korean, and she told me that there were 5 different ways to say that sound, which she failed to help me distinguish.

What makes Korean dialects so different from each other that you even have a hard time understanding? Is it the accent? Or, are there grammatical differences?
 
I had a Korean friend who tried to teach me how to say "pa" sound in Korean, and she told me that there were 5 different ways to say that sound, which she failed to help me distinguish.

Sorry for the late reply, Misa.J! 😅 I wanted to study this before answering; I guess getting questions really makes you learn things. I didn't find much, but ruled out some doubts about my own understanding! LOL

Coming to your first question. Are you sure it wasn't 3 different "pa"s? :)

All I know is that Korean has a three-way-distinction in the consonants.

1. unvoiced p (like the French p but softer, i.e. without tensing your vocal cords)
발 /pal/ "foot"

2. tense p (like French p but stronger, i.e. with tensing the vocal cords)
빨 /?pal/ "to suck"

3. aspirated p (close to English p, which has the strong puffing out of air)
팔 /phal/ "arm"

The difficulty you had with your Korean friend is probably due to the different consonant sets in Japanese which I hear has a two-way-distinction;

1. unvoiced p
2. voiced b
(I'm a little hesitant to write p because I read somewhere that Japanese P's has changed into F's or H's. Not sure, but this may also have something to do???)

Korean doesn't have tones like Mandarin Chinese; which happens to have 4 distinct tones; high, rising, dipping, and falling; plus one neutral tone which is simply not having any tonality when a character falls on the second syllable. You could say Mandarin Chinese has 5 tones, but that's Mandarin.

And I also wonder whether your friend wasn't including the F and V sounds on top of the 3 Korean p's; with so many loan words from English, French, and what not, quite a few people can pronounce these "foreign varieties of p's." I wonder?

When speakers from two languages having different sound systems hear each other, the effect is not that predictable. It actually takes quite some time being exposed to the sounds until one begins to get some feel for the other's sounds.


What makes Korean dialects so different from each other that you even have a hard time understanding? Is it the accent? Or, are there grammatical differences?

I would have to correct myself about the dialects; there are 6 major Korean dialects, not 8 as I said earlier. Coming to your question, the difficulty I had with my grandfather was both differences in speech sounds and vocabulary. I gradually picked up his vocabulary, but the sound barrier (not the 330m/s barrier of course was impossible to overcome.

There is one major dialect that involves this type of difficulty; it is the dialect of Cheju Island. The Cheju Dialect is quite impossible to understand for mainlanders unless you've lived there for a while. The other major dialects on the Korean peninsula may have a slight accent or a strong intonation but the sounds themselves are not that different.

My difficulty with the regional dialects come mainly from the words. Words are quite varied. I only found out this year that there are at least a dozen ways to say "snail" in Korean. In how many ways can you say "snail" in Japanese?
 
Hey lexico, Thank you so much for your reply.

by lexico: The difficulty you had with your Korean friend is probably due to the different consonant sets in Japanese which I hear has a two-way-distinction;

1. unvoiced p
2. voiced b

You know, after reading your post, I started to remember how my friend kept telling me to say the sound softly or strongly, so your explanation makes a lot of sense. :)

by lexico: My difficulty with the regional dialects come mainly from the words. Words are quite varied. I only found out this year that there are at least a dozen ways to say "snail" in Korean. In how many ways can you say "snail" in Japanese?

I only know one way to say "snail" in Japanese, "KATATSUMURI" that is.

BTW, I know Korean and Japanese share a few nouns such as "KIRIN" for a giraffe, umm that is the only one I can think of right now, and I thought it was quite interesting. I recently learned some Okinawan dialect, which seems almost a different language. It must be fascinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.
 
Thank you for posting back.

I'm glad it helped! I didn't know exactly what to say, so I kind of rambled on. 😄

I only know one way to say "snail" in Japanese, "KATATSUMURI" that is. I recently learned some Okinawan dialect, which seems almost a different language. It must be fascinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.

One reason I asked you about the word for snail is that I love snails; (/TALPHENG'I/ in Korean) in fact I have about 30 water snails in a fish tank. They are very happy creature. I know for a fact that Spongebob's pet Gary is no exaggeration! Wonderful pets, too. They'll eat almost anything, and clean up after!

But the other reason was; I've read in a textbook about Mr Yanagita Kunio (1875-1962) who studied snail words in Japan; In his time, he collected 4 different snail words propagating outwards from Kyoto ; let me list them.

....dedemusi (central Kyoto)
....maimai
....katatumuri
....tuburi (outskirts of the city)


I've noticed your word for snail is Mr Kunio's third snail word. (Where have you heard people say /KATATSUMURI/? Do you have a place name so I can find it on a map?)

But I would really like to ask you this; does any other form sound familiar, even as a provincial or kiddy word? And might you know what snail is in Okinawan? Or even Ainu?

BTW, I know Korean and Japanese share a few nouns such as "KIRIN" for a giraffe, umm that is the only one I can think of right now, and I thought it was quite interesting.

麒麟 /kirin/ is indeed the same in Japanese & Korean. It is both the mythological "unicorn" and the giraffe we see at the zoo!
A couple I found interesting are

HARA (Jap. "field")......: PO:L (Kor. "field, mud patch")
FATA (Jap. "field")......: PATH (Kor. "dry field")
MORI (Jap. "forest")....: MOI (Kor. "mountain")
MURE (Jap. "multitude): MURI (Kor. "multitude")
NATA (Jap. "sickle")....: NAS (Kor. "sickle")
WADA(Jap. "navigate"): PATA(Kor." sea")
NAY...(Ainu "river").....: NAI(Kor. "river")

There are tons of others I can quote, but I wondered if you thought these Modern Japanese words and meaning are written correctly? And are any of the old usage, ancient Old Japanese, not used now?

It must be fascinating to listen to old Okinawan people talking in their dialect.

Where did you go to learn Okinawan? Are there classes?

Once I've learned enough Japanese, I would like to study Okinawan and Ainu! I can hardly wait for that! :)
 
I've noticed your word for snail is Mr Kunio's third snail word. (Where have you heard people say /KATATSUMURI/? Do you have a place name so I can find it on a map?) But I would really like to ask you this; does any other form sound familiar, even as a provincial or kiddy word? And might you know what snail is in Okinawan? Or even Ainu?

I grew up in the Kantou area of Japan where people speak "Hyoujungo", which with the most books are written, but also "DENDEN MUSHI" is used in a song about snail for kids. I remembered after reading your post. :LOL:


Where did you go to learn Okinawan? Are there classes?

My husband was into an Okinawan style of Karate a while ago, and he taught me a few Okinawan words that he had learned from a book.
 
Thank you, Misa.J

Thanks for sharing your personal memory. Now I can picture the snails in my mind, with people in Kantou Japan who call them katatsumuri, and children who sing den~den~mushi! It has become a memory for all to share, till the end of the computer age!

Take care, Misa.J!
 
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