Zen Buddhism
- Thread starter Hoyu
- Start date
kinjo
後輩
- 15 Mar 2002
- 719
- 33
Just reading these last few posts has brought back a memory of a simple kind of meditation that I once participated in, I was still attending school, so it was maybe 1984 (ish) all my class students and myself went on a religious retreat with the teachers and a few well-respected clergymen, the time spent in meditation was maybe a total of 15 mins, the scene was as follows,
white gowns had to be worn(in our minds) we were talked threw a beautiful garden of white flowers, on the right-hand side a wooden bench, on the left-hand side a large pond with lilies and sun rays reflecting off the ponds surface, I can't remember much more. Still, the garden was the focus, we were all instructed on what we saw in sufficient detail, and I found the point, of small pebbles, wet or dry quite fascinating it was so intense but relaxing, I remember the coldness than the instruction on how to control your body temperature by allowing yourself to send warm blood to your waist. Thighs, then legs, then finally feet, I have remembered this event very fondly, and will no doubt spent a while thinking of this and wondering why I have never done this again since!!
white gowns had to be worn(in our minds) we were talked threw a beautiful garden of white flowers, on the right-hand side a wooden bench, on the left-hand side a large pond with lilies and sun rays reflecting off the ponds surface, I can't remember much more. Still, the garden was the focus, we were all instructed on what we saw in sufficient detail, and I found the point, of small pebbles, wet or dry quite fascinating it was so intense but relaxing, I remember the coldness than the instruction on how to control your body temperature by allowing yourself to send warm blood to your waist. Thighs, then legs, then finally feet, I have remembered this event very fondly, and will no doubt spent a while thinking of this and wondering why I have never done this again since!!
- Thread starter
- #54
Debs
Yes... that sort of guided meditation is prevalent in the West. That Christian clergyman would be teaching such a thing at a religious retreat for children is a bit surprising, truly wonderful nonetheless.
There have been several ecumenical efforts between Buddhists and Christians to find some middle ground that everyone can agree upon. Meditation/Prayer happens to be one of these subjects.
If you have found that the Zen Dojo's in N. Ireland are just too far away from you, yet you still want to learn about Zazen meditation, then I would be more than happy to try to assist you in any way I am able. But remember what I quoted from Brad Warner, "Let's face it. Zen is boring."
Yes... that sort of guided meditation is prevalent in the West. That Christian clergyman would be teaching such a thing at a religious retreat for children is a bit surprising, truly wonderful nonetheless.
There have been several ecumenical efforts between Buddhists and Christians to find some middle ground that everyone can agree upon. Meditation/Prayer happens to be one of these subjects.
If you have found that the Zen Dojo's in N. Ireland are just too far away from you, yet you still want to learn about Zazen meditation, then I would be more than happy to try to assist you in any way I am able. But remember what I quoted from Brad Warner, "Let's face it. Zen is boring."
cowo
先輩
- 12 Sep 2003
- 33
- 0
Kakuzen
Konichiwa
I had to bring this thread up again, simply because I spent the last few hours reading through it and the other links you posted. The Brad Warner page, for instance, is really great.
But now my head is spinning. For me reading English still needs concentration and I spent mine for today.
I just started to read Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo yesterday, so I searched on "Dogen" in this forum if something interesting might appear. So I was a bit surprised and totally grateful to find someone with your level of knowledge.
I have to admit that all my understanding of Buddhism comes from books I read. Because I know no Buddhist in person. So I'm thrilled to talk (write) to one finally.
The first book I read about Buddhism was some introduction I found at our public library. It was from DT Suzuki ki, and I can't remember the title. Although I read it twice, I didn't really understand much of it. But I think I got the idea of it / got a sense how Buddhism feels. It's hard for me to explain, even in German.
After that, I kind of stick to it and read more books, but it's hard to find any good ones. In German even harder. (There is so much crap on the market) Maybe you can recommend some?
I followed one of the links you posted before and was amazed at how many Zen-Centers exist in Germany. Can you explain some of the differences between the denominations, lineages and affiliations?
Thanks for your help
cowo
p.s.: I haven't practised Zazen yet, but (after I read this thread) I will try.
Konichiwa
I had to bring this thread up again, simply because I spent the last few hours reading through it and the other links you posted. The Brad Warner page, for instance, is really great.
But now my head is spinning. For me reading English still needs concentration and I spent mine for today.
I just started to read Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo yesterday, so I searched on "Dogen" in this forum if something interesting might appear. So I was a bit surprised and totally grateful to find someone with your level of knowledge.
I have to admit that all my understanding of Buddhism comes from books I read. Because I know no Buddhist in person. So I'm thrilled to talk (write) to one finally.
The first book I read about Buddhism was some introduction I found at our public library. It was from DT Suzuki ki, and I can't remember the title. Although I read it twice, I didn't really understand much of it. But I think I got the idea of it / got a sense how Buddhism feels. It's hard for me to explain, even in German.
After that, I kind of stick to it and read more books, but it's hard to find any good ones. In German even harder. (There is so much crap on the market) Maybe you can recommend some?
I followed one of the links you posted before and was amazed at how many Zen-Centers exist in Germany. Can you explain some of the differences between the denominations, lineages and affiliations?
Thanks for your help
cowo
p.s.: I haven't practised Zazen yet, but (after I read this thread) I will try.
- Thread starter
- #62
Hi COWO,
You will find that the vast majority of Zen Centers are of the Japanese Soto Zen denomination in Germany. You will also find a fair amount of Japanese Rinzai Zen and combination Soto/Rinzai Zen traditions. The next largest concentration appears to be the Korean Chogye Son tradition, followed by the Vietnamese Ch'an tradition and even one Chinese Ch'an tradition has established a centre in Germany.
The differences between these different traditions would be difficult to list, and even more challenging to discuss in detail. Perhaps if you were to ask specific questions about the traditions in accord with your likes and dislikes, or if you were to pick the closest Zen Centers to your home and ask me about their traditions, I could be of some assistance you.
In Gassho, Kakuzen
You will find that the vast majority of Zen Centers are of the Japanese Soto Zen denomination in Germany. You will also find a fair amount of Japanese Rinzai Zen and combination Soto/Rinzai Zen traditions. The next largest concentration appears to be the Korean Chogye Son tradition, followed by the Vietnamese Ch'an tradition and even one Chinese Ch'an tradition has established a centre in Germany.
The differences between these different traditions would be difficult to list, and even more challenging to discuss in detail. Perhaps if you were to ask specific questions about the traditions in accord with your likes and dislikes, or if you were to pick the closest Zen Centers to your home and ask me about their traditions, I could be of some assistance you.
In Gassho, Kakuzen
I am quite interested in Zen and have read quite a lot about religion and philosophy of religion, particularly. I really admire Zen practised and thought, but feel that certain darker elements are not really talked about too much in the west. Zen has been linked to militarism and imperialism, and several of the roshi who came to America have quite dodgy backgrounds. I find that in America, specifically Zen, is quite closely associated with environmentalism and more liberal personality types. I find that people like this. I know like this in Japan are often Christians. It is an odd switch. Western hippies are Buddhists, Japanese hippies are Christians! It's all good, I suppose. There was a zen temple near the town where I lived in Iwate-ken for three years, and the main priest guy invited me to do zazen with him, but I never did. We drank together several times. That is another weird thing about western zen people...they are often vegetarians, don't drink, etc....which is definitely not the case in Japan. Maybe the west has preserved the true nature of zen. I'll be going back to Japan soon so that I will look more into things again. I think it is really essential for people getting into zen to understand that it is not some super pure thing. It has just as much baggage as any other religion or set of philosophical ideals. That doesn't mean one should not do it, though. You have to use your own judgement.
Peace,
腕白坊主
Peace,
腕白坊主
- 15 Mar 2003
- 1,209
- 47
I would say America and the West have made its own cult of Zen in many respects. As you mentioned, there are enough differences to almost be able to draw a line between Japanese Zen and American Zen. One is not purer than the other though, it all depends on who you ask. Both cultures approach zen through different sets of conditioning. I would say that western zen Buddhists still carry a lot of the Judeo-Christian concepts of rigid doctrines (a penchant for law and organization, absolutes) while Japanese zen Buddhists (a minority sect in Japan) approach the same thing from a more flexible stance, also dealing with a long interaction between other sects of Buddhism (Jodo, Tendai etc.). But, as long as they take you to the same place, it doesn't matter which style you choose.
There is also a west trend to read zen into various Japanese arts, but that is a different thread.
There is also a west trend to read zen into various Japanese arts, but that is a different thread.
Maybe you guys can help me out here, my boyfriend is very religious, and his father is a minister I was born Christian, but I am such a curious person I want to learn about world religions, but he thinks its wrong! I told him I like to read about Buddhism, and he told me I shouldn't because it's wrong and that I could be influenced to change religions. I don't understand how Buddhism is so wrong I don't think it is, but since its not Christian, it's different its wrong...if I have another discussion with him about religion again, I think I'm going to freak! I don't know what to do with him. I mean this is me I like to learn a lot of new things, and he's so narrow-minded, and I have such a broad view on the world its really starting to annoy me.
maybe you could give me some sites that I could maybe (if I beg) get him to look at
thanx
maybe you could give me some sites that I could maybe (if I beg) get him to look at
thanx
- 26 Feb 2003
- 2,337
- 86
That's an interesting dilemma you pose because you raise two noteworthy points:
1) "my boyfriend is very religious" followed by...
2) "he's so narrow-minded, and I have such a broad view on the world."
Unfortunately, this is a fault I have found in many of my own friends who claim to be comfortable with their respective faiths. Personally, I never understood this. If someone is so secure in their beliefs and hold absolute conviction for what they believe as "truth", why are they always the first to get defensive and sweepingly dismiss anyone else's belief system? But I digress...
Anyways, as a former Seminarian who has since radically changed (yes, I actually spent two years at St. Lawrence Seminary thinking that was my calling... don't get me started 8-p) I don't really know what advice to give you. I think the issue may stem from the fact that you may be more of a spiritually-oriented Christian as opposed to your boyfriend who is more "religious" per se and in line with the fundamentalist line of thought (accept Christ as your saviour and be saved or burn in Hell for all eternity, blah blah, etc. etc.).
I may be way off base here, but I guess you guys should really sit down, talk things over, work it out somehow, and hash out your differences. There is nothing wrong with two people who have differing opinions on faith as long as both people are open-minded and flexible in what they believe. When one person tries to dictate (as in your boyfriend's case) what the other should believe or attempt to validate or disprove the other person based on the tenets of their faith, then you have a problem.
1) "my boyfriend is very religious" followed by...
2) "he's so narrow-minded, and I have such a broad view on the world."
Unfortunately, this is a fault I have found in many of my own friends who claim to be comfortable with their respective faiths. Personally, I never understood this. If someone is so secure in their beliefs and hold absolute conviction for what they believe as "truth", why are they always the first to get defensive and sweepingly dismiss anyone else's belief system? But I digress...
Anyways, as a former Seminarian who has since radically changed (yes, I actually spent two years at St. Lawrence Seminary thinking that was my calling... don't get me started 8-p) I don't really know what advice to give you. I think the issue may stem from the fact that you may be more of a spiritually-oriented Christian as opposed to your boyfriend who is more "religious" per se and in line with the fundamentalist line of thought (accept Christ as your saviour and be saved or burn in Hell for all eternity, blah blah, etc. etc.).
I may be way off base here, but I guess you guys should really sit down, talk things over, work it out somehow, and hash out your differences. There is nothing wrong with two people who have differing opinions on faith as long as both people are open-minded and flexible in what they believe. When one person tries to dictate (as in your boyfriend's case) what the other should believe or attempt to validate or disprove the other person based on the tenets of their faith, then you have a problem.
- Thread starter
- #67
Hi Anastasia,
The paradox is that while he is judgmental about other religions, you harbour judgmental feelings about him being judgmental. While I can appreciate you want the ones you love to share in your open-mindedness, the fact is that not everyone is at that level. This is why, as Buddhists, we need to know when it is appropriate to practise patience and tolerance to illuminate wisdom compassionately.
In cases such as these the very best we can do is plant the seeds, it is up to them how soon the seed will grow to bear fruit. Showing your boyfriend websites on Buddhism and hoping that he gets the Buddha's message may only exacerbate your situation. Buddhists are not typically evangelical. We don't go out trying to convert everyone to our religion. We practice the Buddha's teachings to the best of our ability, and people are naturally drawn to Buddhism through our example. If you really want to teach your boyfriend about Buddhism, I would suggest that you first practice it yourself. Through your actions alone, may he come to appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha.
Here is a website, not for your boyfriend to study, but for you to study:
About Buddhism < click here
(If you study all the information found in the links located on the left-hand column of the "About Buddhism" webpage, then you will know more about Buddhism than most Buddhists do. All you will have to do then is to apply it to every aspect of your daily life. No easy task, I assure you.)
Respectfully, Kakuzen
The paradox is that while he is judgmental about other religions, you harbour judgmental feelings about him being judgmental. While I can appreciate you want the ones you love to share in your open-mindedness, the fact is that not everyone is at that level. This is why, as Buddhists, we need to know when it is appropriate to practise patience and tolerance to illuminate wisdom compassionately.
In cases such as these the very best we can do is plant the seeds, it is up to them how soon the seed will grow to bear fruit. Showing your boyfriend websites on Buddhism and hoping that he gets the Buddha's message may only exacerbate your situation. Buddhists are not typically evangelical. We don't go out trying to convert everyone to our religion. We practice the Buddha's teachings to the best of our ability, and people are naturally drawn to Buddhism through our example. If you really want to teach your boyfriend about Buddhism, I would suggest that you first practice it yourself. Through your actions alone, may he come to appreciate the wisdom of the Buddha.
Here is a website, not for your boyfriend to study, but for you to study:
About Buddhism < click here
(If you study all the information found in the links located on the left-hand column of the "About Buddhism" webpage, then you will know more about Buddhism than most Buddhists do. All you will have to do then is to apply it to every aspect of your daily life. No easy task, I assure you.)
Respectfully, Kakuzen
Thank you both for your opinions. I know I'm young, but I like to think I'm very understanding of other people. But I think I have a lot of learning to do; I'm not impatient with him I'm frustrated that he feels he needs to save my soul...he doesn't TRY to stop me he sure lets me know that he disapproves though. The fact that he's not accepting me for who I am and what I like bothers me cause it's not like I'm telling him what he should believe. I'm happy that he believes so strongly that everyone should have something to believe in and that it is of their own choice and that they shouldn't feel threatened by eternal damnation if they don't choose the right religion.
Thank you for the site I hope I get time to look at it, but I'm over my head in homework and readings. but I'll try ^_^
hopefully, my sanity will be able to survive this relationship
Thank you for the site I hope I get time to look at it, but I'm over my head in homework and readings. but I'll try ^_^
hopefully, my sanity will be able to survive this relationship
