Help Yosegaki Hinomaru Authenticity

fisherman04 · 7 Aug 2024

Hello everyone! Well I struck out twice on my first 2 pieces of Japanese history that were both faked. Hopefully 3rd time is the charm.

I would like to see if anyone might be able to translate some of the kanji and tell if this flag is authentic. If I need to take some different angle pictures please let me know.

Thanks!

Majestic · 8 Aug 2024

Right side, vertical writing: 祈武運長久 (Praying for good luck in battle)
Next to that: 川合實夫君 Kawai Saneo-kun (Name of recipient).
The rest are all names. Looks OK-ish to me. Hard to tell nowadays. Nothing obviously fake about it, although I am not a native speaker, and it is possible I can miss things that a native speaker wouldn't miss.

fisherman04 · 8 Aug 2024

Thank you Majestic! I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this for me.

fisherman04 · 20 Sep 2024

Hello again all. I was just checking back in to see if there was any way some of the names could be translated? I have tried researching what I could with different translation tools and haven't come up with much (I am a newb).

Just very interested in the history of this flag. Is it possible that there are any more slogans on the flag? Much much appreciated!

Majestic · 20 Sep 2024

Of course the names can be translated to some extent, but kanji have multiple readings, and we can not always be sure of the readings. It is much like the name Stephen can be pronounced either "Steven" or "Stefan", and we don't know the actual pronunciation unless we talk to the person or have some knowledge of his friends and family. But in Japanese the differences are not always so subtle. The name 昇 can be read as either "Noboru" or "Akira" or a few other possible readings. Your flag has maybe 100 names on it, many are hastily handwritten and can't be identified with 100% accuracy. So really, its a lot of work for what would end up being a fairly unreliable translation. Even the recipient's name: Kawai, could have other possible readings (Kawaai, Kawagō, etc.).

It does appear that the writings are all names, and there are no other slogans on there

Majestic · 20 Sep 2024

Just to put an even finer point on this; a translator might charge 25 cents per character. So you have maybe 100 names each with approximately 4 characters per name, so if you sent this to a professional translator they might charge $100 to translate. The end result would look something like this

Clockwise from the 12:00 position:
1. Illegible
2. Illegible
3. Illegible
4. Suzumura Shigeo
5. Fuha Kunimune (or Chikamune)
6. Illegible
7. Takasaki (or Takazaki) Yukimi (or Sachimi?)

etc...

fisherman04 · 20 Sep 2024

Majestic said:
Of course the names can be translated to some extent, but kanji have multiple readings, and we can not always be sure of the readings. It is much like the name Stephen can be pronounced either "Steven" or "Stefan", and we don't know the actual pronunciation unless we talk to the person or have some knowledge of his friends and family. But in Japanese the differences are not always so subtle. The name 昇 can be read as either "Noboru" or "Akira" or a few other possible readings. Your flag has maybe 100 names on it, many are hastily handwritten and can't be identified with 100% accuracy. So really, its a lot of work for what would end up being a fairly unreliable translation. Even the recipient's name: Kawai, could have other possible readings (Kawaai, Kawagō, etc.).

It does appear that the writings are all names, and there are no other slogans on there

Ok thank you very much Majestic. I am sorry I didn't realize it would be that complicated.

mdchachi · 20 Sep 2024

If you're willing to spend a few bucks you could probably get the legible names translated for much less than $100 at fiverr.com.

fisherman04 · 20 Sep 2024

mdchachi said:
If you're willing to spend a few bucks you could probably get the legible names translated for much less than $100 at fiverr.com.

I will definitely take a look at this. Thank you!

Majestic · 21 Sep 2024

Just bear in mind that paying someone on fiverr doesn't make it less complicated. The problem of pronunciation exists whether you pay $5 or $500.

For example, the name of the recipient. Is it Kawai Saneo? or Kawai Jitsuo? or maybe Kawagō Saneo? Kawagō Jitsuo? Or some other combination? It could be any of the above, plus a couple of other possibilities. To me, Kawai Saneo feels the most plausible, but I have no way of knowing the actual pronunciation. That is just the reality. If you pay me $5 for or $100, this doesn't change.

The best thing you can do is hope that your translator is honest, and will give you a list of possible pronunciations, beginning with the most plausible ones, and ending with the least plausible ones. So if that feels like an interesting endeavor, and you can find someone on fiverr who will do this sort of translation (which I'm sure there is), then that might be an interesting pursuit. Remember, it's not so much a problem of translation, as it is a problem of determining the possibilities and probabilities.

mdchachi · 21 Sep 2024

If I were paying somebody to do this I'd ask for them to transcribe the kanji primarily.
And then to give the likely name pronunciations as well as alternative possibilities as Majestic suggested.

fisherman04 · 21 Sep 2024

Majestic said:
Just bear in mind that paying someone on fiverr doesn't make it less complicated. The problem of pronunciation exists whether you pay $5 or $500.

For example, the name of the recipient. Is it Kawai Saneo? or Kawai Jitsuo? or maybe Kawagō Saneo? Kawagō Jitsuo? Or some other combination? It could be any of the above, plus a couple of other possibilities. To me, Kawai Saneo feels the most plausible, but I have no way of knowing the actual pronunciation. That is just the reality. If you pay me $5 for or $100, this doesn't change.
View attachment 119637
The best thing you can do is hope that your translator is honest, and will give you a list of possible pronunciations, beginning with the most plausible ones, and ending with the least plausible ones. So if that feels like an interesting endeavor, and you can find someone on fiverr who will do this sort of translation (which I'm sure there is), then that might be an interesting pursuit. Remember, it's not so much a problem of translation, as it is a problem of determining the possibilities and probabilities.

Wow thank you for all the information. It's a lot to take in and a lot of possibilities. All your help and expertise is greatly appreciated.

fisherman04 · 21 Sep 2024

mdchachi said:
If I were paying somebody to do this I'd ask for them to transcribe the kanji primarily.
And then to give the likely name pronunciations as well as alternative possibilities as Majestic suggested.

Ok thank you for this. You all have been such a great help!

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