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Why do Japanese people switch to 丁寧語 with foreigners?

Haruto Uzumaki

渦巻ハルト
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This is hard to classify as a language question, so I've put it in this category instead, I hope that's fine.
I thought I was just imagining it, or maybe that I just didn't reach the "friend" status in each case that I've seen it, but I eventually ended up in situations where this was an apparent thing: Upon the realization that I'm a foreigner, people tend to switch to 丁寧語 on me... why? First, I've been given the excuse that they thought it would make the translation software translate their messages correctly, which we all know isn't the case as 丁寧語 words pretty much just make the sentence more polite, and don't really make the meaning any more clear for a translator or even a Japanese learner... but whatever, that's fine. However, I had this conversation with a completely random person online, and I can't ignore it anymore; he almost definitely switched to 丁寧語 just because I was a foreigner, because he talked to me without it, before I said I wasn't Japanese...

English is difficult…
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"would you like some help?"

？
助けがいる世界？多分君は日本人だよね？
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「ごめんね、日本人ではないんだけど、一緒に繋げると、ぞうさんの英語の勉強に手伝う - アメリカ人から
（あと、もうすぐ日本に住む、3ヶ月ぐらいかなぁ）」
(sorry for the bad Japanese)
なるほど！もうすぐ日本に来るのですね。楽しんで下さいね。
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So at this point you can clearly see not only has the conversation shifted away from helping him with English, but he's now using 丁寧語 with me when originally he was using regular language... Unless he was talking to himself or something, which I'm pretty sure he wasn't, it doesn't make sense for him to switch unless it was because he realized I was a foreigner... right?
To me it seemed like he initially thought I was Japanese (probably because of the JP in my username) and would save him from his struggles, until he realized I wasn't Japanese... If we can agree this is what's happening, then my main question is... why? Is this part of being the "outsider" that I am? Does he feel comfortable with Japanese people, but uncomfortable with foreigners enough to put up a wall? Hm...
 
That's not 丁寧語, its just kind a normal, standard Japanese. And if anything, he switched from タメ口 to normal Japanese - and its nothing to get surprised, upset, confused, outraged over. Its just normal everyday Japanese.

You are going to be a guest in Japan. A visitor. A customer. By default, everyone will speak politely to you. This is a good thing, and is entirely natural. You shouldn't interpret it as anything other than this. If you assume that they are building up a barrier, and that your first duty is to break down this barrier by speaking casually, you will struggle.

The thing is: in Japan, politeness matters. Social literacy matters. Good etiquette matters. Being polite with people you don't know is just good, basic, manners. If you say to people, "Hi, I want to be your friend, please don't use polite language with me" you are showing that you know nothing about Japan. In your mind you may be thinking, "Chill my brothers, no need to use polite language with me", but in reality you are creating a situation as awkward as if you had said "please talk to me in rhyme". It's just odd, and creates tension for the person to whom you are speaking. Maybe your circle of online language partners is different, but they are not the real world.

In normal, everyday transactions, the people you meet are just trying to get through their lives, and they don't necessarily want to make friends with you or accept you into their small circle of intimate buddies. And its actually deeper than just a level of friendliness: being able to speak politely shows you are educated. It shows you know how to function in a polite society. If somebody speaks in standard Japanese to you, and you answer in hyper casual language, you are not showing how friendly you are. You are, in effect, disrespecting the person to whom you are speaking. Of course if you are in a shop or a restaurant, you aren't expected to respond to the clerk in the same, supremely polite Japanese that the clerk uses on you. But the shop clerk also isn't there to make friends... its just a place of business.

So in your language exchange above, your language partner switches to standard Japanese, maybe out of respect for you. Maybe he thought it would be easier for you to speak at the standard level than the slangy level. So when you continue to speak to him in casual Japanese, its a little bit disrespectful to him. Now, since you are a foreigner, people will cut you a bit of slack for not knowing all the subtleties of the language. But its your job to figure out all of these subtleties. Its kind of why people who study Japanese formally, study the most standard form of Japanese first. Then they can branch out from there and learn the casual forms and the super polite forms.

As we spoke about in the other thread, there is a perceived casual/formal divide between how Japanese is used in Kansai and Kantō. But understand that even in Kansai the language is a barometer of how educated/civilized you are.
 
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By the way, it took me maybe 7-8 years of living in Japan before I figured this out.
 
How about online netiquette? Why do you suppose he would speak casually to someone he doesn't know as the default? And in what case do you think he'd maintain that and not switch to standard Japanese? If it were somebody he regarded as a peer?
 
@Majestic I agree with everything you're saying, and I did respond to him with 敬語 after that, but what I still don't get is why he used タメ語 in the first place if I was already established to be a new person to him... I mean I get it if it's because I'm a guest or whatever, but it feels more like a wall when someone's originally speaking more relaxed and suddenly they tense up after learning information about you, that just feels weird...
And I don't expect people to talk to me in タメ語 if I don't know them, nor will I ask them to do it when I just met them or something (and I definitely wouldn't be disrespectful and continue to not use 敬語 if they're using it) but my concern is the "retraction" of the relaxed/casual feel to suddenly tense or... how do I say it, it basically feels like they just found out I'm the boss of some company or something, so they start to act different when we were getting along fine before without them having that knowledge, I hope that makes sense.
Also, I'm confused how it's not 丁寧語 if he was using things like です and 下さい with me... Many websites and people (including Japanese people) consider it 丁寧語, as it is polite language after all, so is there something I'm missing?
mdchachi said:
How about online netiquette? Why do you suppose he would speak casually to someone he doesn't know as the default? And in what case do you think he'd maintain that and not switch to standard Japanese? If it were somebody he regarded as a peer?
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I don't know why he was speaking like that either honestly, but I felt it was because he thought I was Japanese, and I noticed in a lot of different online places, even new people come in dropping the polite language and relax, feeling at home with their other Japanese buddies. There's of course still some people that continue to use 敬語 even with people who don't use it back to them, but a whole lot of people drop that stuff and even honorifics when it comes to online interactons... So yeah, it feels like if he regarded me as a peer, then he would've continued using タメ語, but maybe that's just me. And as I said before I'm fine if it starts out with polite language in the first place, I'm only concerned about when they use it until finding out something about you like being a foreigner, then retracting it, which feels kind of like a wall was placed. I can accept this if it is what it is, but I just find it hard to believe it's just because I'm a guest or something, especially when other excuses have been made for similar occurrences...
At the very least I'm grateful for my friends that don't mind being familiar with me I'm not gonna try to go against Japanese culture or anything, so at the end of the day whoever wants to be my friend can/will be, and whoever wants to hide behind the wall can do so as well...
 
A few things here.

First of all -- and I don't mean this to be rude -- but please be wary of trusting your intuition too much about what "feels weird" or what certain cases of タメ口 vs. です/ます do or don't signify.

You simply don't -- not trying to be dismissive, just speaking objectively -- do not yet possess the level of familiarity with the language or culture to be making these value judgments and assumptions about what is going through a native speaker's mind. If you do this, you run the risk of misreading people and fabricating motivations that just aren't there.

To rephrase/reiterate an important point, there is nothing about using です/ます-form (I'm even avoiding using the term 丁寧語 even though it's accurate, because I feel like you're reading too much into what 丁寧/politeness means) that necessarily is framing you as a "guest" or "putting up a wall". 丁寧語 is also the default form that native Japanese speakers will use with each other upon a first meeting, and even many, many times after that unless they reach the stage where they are "best buds", so to speak. Some married couples even use 丁寧語 with each other because that's what they were used to.

when someone's originally speaking more relaxed and suddenly they tense up after learning information about you, that just feels weird...
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To introduce another factor that you don't seem to have considered, note how the original two statements (助けがいる世界？多分君は日本人だよね？) aren't even really directed at you, but are more self-reflective, i.e. the speaker talking/thinking to themselves.

They begin with ("Can this world truly be so kind...?", which is obviously not directly addressing you. Even the second sentence, taken in context, isn't so much directly/concretely addressing you and asking if you are Japanese, but comes off more like ("You [i.e. this person figuratively standing in front of me] must be Japanese, right?")

The person switches from ため口 to polite speech not because you're a foreigner and they are "tensing up" or "putting up a wall" but because they were originally half talking to themselves, and now they're engaged in a direct conversation with a person they're meeting for the first time, so it's perfectly natural to be polite. Japanese people (typically -- it's different if it's e.g. an older man speaking to a much younger person, a person who considers themselves far above the other in status, etc.) don't walk up to strangers and just bust out 君は日本人だよね？ because they feel so comfortable with their fellow Japanese or whatever. Doing so in many cases would come off as overly and awkwardly familiar.

It's similar -- not identical because obvious the languages and cultures aren't identical, but similar -- to how if you ran into a stranger at the park when you were both walking your dogs or something, you might say "Hey, how's it going. Nice weather, isn't it?"...but you probably wouldn't just come out with "Yooooo...how's it hangin', dude? ******' awesome weather today, ya feel me?" or whatever.

The polite version isn't "putting up a wall". It's just...being polite and not overly familiar, which is perfectly natural when the two people aren't best friends with each other.
 
That's true, but it's also why I'm asking the question here in the first place... and I've also mentioned quite a few times that it's how I feel, as in how it makes me feel, so it's understandable that my feelings can be wrong in this case, but I think it's a natural thing to agree with the feeling at first instinct when it appears (when I was even more of a beginner, I couldn't sense any feeling at all from these things, but now I'm starting to). I guess I should try not to trust it as much, but sometimes it's actually right, like with certain nuances of word usages. I feel that it's also important to "refine" it and get better at telling when it's really something there, and when it's just a figment of my imagination.
Well, I did consider it actually...
I just didn't think that could be true if he used 君, which I thought was directed towards me. Maybe that he assumed he was much older than me. Whatever the reason, I just felt like he must've been talking to me, so that's why I had this feeling in the first place. Since he was talking to himself, then it does make sense to me since they won't really use polite language with their own thoughts... But can you see how I thought that he was talking to me? Since it turns out he's talking to himself, I can completely understand the switch between tongues/modes of speech.

The fact that it was figurative is what got me; I also need to learn a lot about the differences between different poetic devices in Japanese vs English, might make a thread about that later... I should've asked that question first before this
And to be clear, it's not that the polite language itself sounds like putting up a wall, but that using it after originally talking to me in a casual way would feel like that. Also, in my opinion, the wall is already there to begin with when it comes to most Japanese people (in real life) and it has to be broken down. I'm fine if the wall is there to begin with, but I just don't like it if the wall gets put up after it originally didn't exist, and I think anyone can understand that kind of feeling...
 
Two things. First, please don't think I was discouraging you from asking the question. By all means, it is good to think and ask about these things and (as you say) refine your understanding based on the answers you receive. I just wanted to caution you against jumping to conclusions. Second, my apologies -- I apparently missed the line where you considered that point that he might have been talking to himself.

But yeah, I think even with the presence of 君, the general tone of the sentence is of the person (at least in part) talking to themselves. Also, for what it's worth, to be honest if they were addressing you with the 君 sentence, it would feel less they're being "casual" with you or "consider you a peer" but more like they're (kind of) talking down to you -- not necessarily in a rude or demeaning way, but like an older person talking to a young student, whatever.

I mean, there are cases where a switch to 丁寧語 (or even 敬語) can be used to put up "a wall", but these cases will be very clear. Like if a husband and wife are arguing, the husband says something hurtful, and the wife glares at him and deadpans そうですね。おっしゃるとおりです。

...then you can damn well expect that the husband will be sleeping on the couch that night.

Haruto Uzumaki said:
Also, in my opinion, the wall is already there to begin with when it comes to most Japanese people (in real life) and it has to be broken down.
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For what it's worth, I would also caution you against thinking this way. As I mentioned in my other post, I've lived in Japan for nearly twenty years and interacted with a wide variety of Japanese people of all ages, all walks of life, and in all sorts of social situations. The degree to which there is a "wall" is very dependent on the person, the situation, etc.

Just because the salaryman sitting next to you on the train isn't going to start shooting the **** with you after a day at work, it doesn't mean that Japanese people are inherently shy or don't like foreigners or are putting up a wall or whatever. Meet the same guy at an izakaya after you've both had a beer or two and start chatting about baseball (or whatever) and he might be talking to you five minutes later like he's your best friend.

So again, my advice would be not to make too many assumptions or have too many preconceptions of what "Japanese people" are like, what they're thinking, etc. It's something that you really have to feel out on a case-by-case basis.
 
bentenmusume said:
and the wife glares at him and deadpans そうですね。おっしゃるとおりです。

...then you can damn well expect that the husband will be sleeping on the couch that night.
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What if she says ご勝手に...
is that just a polite way to say "go out and have fun"? Asking for a friend.
 
That's okay
Yeah true, I thought he might be older than me anyway, but I guess it wouldn't necessarily be casual anymore if they're just speaking out of authority... Well, now I know...
Eek! I don't know why I can visualize that scene perfectly in my head, but Japanese wives can be scary Still though, what else is meant when switching to 敬語 when previously speaking casually, if that ever happens? Other than that wall feeling, how else can it be used? If a guy has a friend for example and they've been talking as friends for like a year or two, but the friend finds out the guy is the head of a huge company or something, and the friend starts talking to him with too much respect, I can only imagine that guy feeling as if the friendship is almost gone out the window because of this, and a superior-inferior relationship has been imposed on their connection. What effect other than this kind can switching to polite language have? (genuinely asking, not that I don't think there's any other way it can make someone feel)

bentenmusume said:
So again, my advice would be not to make too many assumptions or have too many preconceptions of what "Japanese people" are like, what they're thinking, etc. It's something that you really have to feel out on a case-by-case basis.
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You're right, I did just make the mistake of assuming and generalizing too much about Japanese people. I should see for myself, and I will soon enough... Thanks
 
Haruto Uzumaki said:
Eek! I don't know why I can visualize that scene perfectly in my head, but Japanese wives can be scary
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Well, my wife can certainly be scary when she wants to be...
But I'd suspect that's true for all wives...not just Japanese ones.

And yes, the effect is quite similar to (for example) the rather common example in English of a mother who usually calls her young son "Bobby" switching to calling him "Robert Christopher Jackson, Junior!" when he's been naughty.
Well, to be honest, I don't think that situation would happen as you describe. Whereas there can be times when a switch in social status might put strain on a friendship (I wouldn't say this is limited to Japan, either...like if your best buddy from college eventually becomes a jet-setting, high-flying lawyer making six figures while you're still working at the local coffee shop, or whatever, that might make for some awkward situations), it's not like in Japan that situation would suddenly result in the one friend bowing profusely to the other guy and calling him 社長様 or whatever.

It really depends on the nature of the relationship, and if the CEO dude and his friend don't care about social status and just want to be buddies with each other, there's no reason why they couldn't/wouldn't just do that and keep speaking to each other the way they always did.

So yeah, there's no reason "polite" language necessarily indicates a cold/unfriendly sort of "distance". You might have a perfectly good relationship with a co-worker and even go out for drinks after work from time to time and still talk "politely" because, well, the original nature of the relationship was based on work and that's how you're most comfortable.

There are also degrees of formality/politeness/casualness even within, say, the general sense of speaking in です/ます form. This can be manifested in terms of expressions used, tone of voice, body language, etc. It's not just this black-and-white situation where any degree of friendliness/familiarity means people will (much less must) use タメ口 or where the use of 丁寧語 means there's a "wall" between those people.

Again, this is something you'll feel out for yourself as you get more comfortable with the language, but I know that I for one have had relationships with Japanese people that felt perfectly warm and friendly despite us being more comfortable speaking to each other in 丁寧語, just because of the nature of the relationship.

edited to add

Also, I can't help but feel like you're getting the question backward by asking "what effect can switching to polite language have?"
The question is more...in what situations would or wouldn't people use polite language vs. casual/familiar language -- and sometimes these can be completely netural.

Like you might switch to タメ口 after a few beers when drinking with your co-worker, but use polite language in the office with the same person when you're talking during a meeting or whatever where your boss is present. It's all very dependent on the individual relationship, the situation, etc.
 
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There is a lot going on in this thread.

Let me clarify that desu/masu chō (ですます調) is indeed 丁寧語.

The point is that 丁寧語 shouldn't be taken as a failure of him to accept you as an peer. And you shouldn't believe that his speaking tame-guchi to you was evidence that he thought of you as a peer. I actually think he was kind of dissing you. And really, based on that little snippet you posted
なるほど！もうすぐ日本に来るのですね。楽しんで下さいね。
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it just sounds like a standard, polite answer: as if he had realized tame-guchi wasn't appropriate to the conversation. And the reason he used tame-guchi in the first place? Who knows? Its the internet, and everyone can be rude or impolite on the internet because the internet provides anonymity. Another thing to consider: because your own Japanese is imperfect, you yourself could inadvertently be giving an impression of being somehow rude or childlike. So perhaps people aren't sure how to speak to you in return. "Who are you to speak to me in that tone?" might be one possible reaction, and that might trigger them to speak to you in tame-guchi. There is this concept of "上から目線" = speaking to someone as if you were their superior. Trying to be casual can sometimes come off as being rude or superior-sounding.

Also, I wanted to push back on this idea that casual Japanese is just as easy to translate as polite Japanese, because I don't think it is. Casual Japanese can be filled with informal contractions or slang or inside jokes, and all of these could be problematic for Japanese learners AND for online translation software. It's not a big point, but I didn't want you to completely dismiss it as a possible reason people use polite Japanese online.
 
My interpretation.

He initially misread "would" as "world" in your first reply, so he mistranslated "would you like some help?" as "助けがいる世界？". Thus, the first "?" has a nuance of something like "Huh?", and he continued "助けがいる世界？ (You used such a strange English, so) you must be Japanese, right?" with a tone of superiority.
And then, he realized his mistake and the one who was wrong was him, not you, so he changed his tone to the normal/common one, most likely with an embarrassed feeling.
 
Sorry for the disappearance again guys, working on self improvement and preparations and all ^_^
I have new information that pretty much solved the part of this question that truly concerned me, but I'll still try to reply to everyone's comments, because even after I figured out the specific case which I was looking for an answer on (which turns out to be different than the situations discussed in this thread), the info about this particular case was still useful
bentenmusume said:
But I'd suspect that's true for all wives...not just Japanese ones.
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yeah definitely :3
bentenmusume said:
Well, to be honest, I don't think that situation would happen as you describe.
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You're right, I kinda made an exaggerated situation, but more on that because it turns out I was partially right about a similar concept occurring, and it's why I asked the question in the first place. I'll explain soon, below.
bentenmusume said:
I wouldn't say this is limited to Japan, either...
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Right, I don't think I was trying to say that it's necessarily a concept limited to Japan, but just trying to identify the way it manifests specifically in Japanese culture, since I'm still on the newbie side of learning about Japanese culture. I know it happens in other ways, in other places, but this specific way in Japan specifically concerned me, and once again, I'll soon explain why I was right to have those concerns...
I also realized during my time away that this became one of my questions too. I think it leads to partially answering the original question, but more importantly, there's an entire other discussion that can be had because of that question, so I'm going to ask it later in a better format, as well as the 20+ other tough questions that continued to bounce around in my head until I wrote them down.
I get that too, and I second that people will behave differently on the internet, as I've seen and heard of quite a lot. However, there are quite a multitude of instances where people will talk to me first or already be talking in タメ語、after all, I wouldn't reply to them in タメ語 if they talked to me with 敬語 first. I've also experienced a lot of cases of the Japanese being clueless that I wasn't Japanese until I made some sort of mistake that gives it away, but more on that at the end of my post. Regardless, I'm not attempting to force casual speech on anyone, and I want to remind you that I was only concerned about those who were originally speaking to me with it, and suddenly changed after the realization that I wasn't Japanese, and a specific set of occurrences are the driving factor for why I created this discussion. I'll explain ↓
Hm, if that's what I said, that isn't what I meant at all.. What I meant was that simply adding です・ます doesn't change the translation in a meaningful way. I also know you're aware that slang and jokes can almost as easily be used while sticking to 丁寧語、right? So even that point doesn't really change the concept, even if I said that casual Japanese is just as easy to translate as polite Japanese (I don't think that, by the way, I run into translation issues all the time when they say stuff like 「メスガキ」or 「ポアする」, a few words I just learned a few days ago which required wikipedia to understand). I only think 丁寧語 doesn't fundamentally change the meaning of a sentence, especially not です・ます... of course depending on the word choice like using 「かしこまりました」 instead of 「分かった」 can have a different nuance, as well as if they used だ in place of です, but overall I don't think the sentence becomes harder to translate without adding 丁寧語、 and I've never run into such problems so far in that way...
I highly resonate with this interpretation. I think that's exactly what must've occurred, and I am a bit remorseful for not realizing it earlier...

__________
So it turns out... The exact situation I was thinking of, on a smaller scale, happened to me. Sorry in advance that I'm gonna butcher the storytelling and also that it's going to be long, as it's a bit hard for me to cohesively write these kinds of explanations in a perfect chronological order but I'll do my best.
The situation in the comments is actually different from the situation in which the original question stemmed from. The situation in the comments was the best example I had at the time to show "proof" that they switched on me after finding out I wasn't Japanese, however through the discussion we had I realized it was a bad example. I have a new example to showcase this phenomena occurring, as well as the answer to why it occurred. Please, by all means, feel free to skip everything in the spoiler, it's a lot, and only is only required if you want to understand the answer better.

The situation takes place in a Discord server in which I regularly hang out and text a friend in, the owner of the server. To preface, this place, like most "hangout" Japanese servers I've been in, probably over 90% of the members use (mostly) casual Japanese. Even new members who just joined 5 minutes earlier will immediately use タメ語 as it's a relaxed atmosphere (in pretty much every one of these servers I've been in), and also seem to attract the Japanese who are tired of social rules, as well as just those who are "warmer" or friendlier, treating everyone as a brother. I won't comment much more about it, but let's just make it clear that the atmosphere isn't a place where people speak politely, and everyone there pretty much is on consensus that using too much polite language can make you seem fake, and some people (in many servers) seem to have something against people from Tokyo for that reason...
So I was talking in this server, the usual way I do: "mixed translation" as you might call it, where I write my own sentences, but if the concept I'm trying to convey can't be expressed with my abilities, I rely on the translator to help me, of course checking it for errors (because it still has bad tendencies we all have to watch out for), and making it fit the correct mood of course. I guess it's also important to mention that the same day earlier, the server owner (my friend) was replying to me in polite Japanese, which turned out to be for the "translation" reason again, and when I replied back in polite Japanese, then he literally said 「丁寧語は使わなくていいよ」、 so of course I pointed out 「でもさっきお前が使ったけど。。。」(oh and by the way before anyone says anything about my usage of お前、we all use this in these servers commonly towards each other, and that's probably as nice as it gets... I won't even write here the worst things that people call each other )
Then he explained himself and all that, and I told him as clearly as possible that he didn't need to do that, and that I wanted him to talk to me the same way he talks normally in the server with the other Japanese people. I didn't want him to put extra effort, and I also want to be exposed to natural speech patterns, not modified ones that only exist when a foreigner is around. He finally understood that I didn't want him to try and make it "easier" for me, and that I'd ask if I needed clarification, and that's what we agreed to.
There are other people in the server of course, so a couple people join in on the conversation, and one said:
ただでさえ日本語って難しいからねぇ、、笑
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So I said it's fine and that I wouldn't quit my studies, because my goal is to live like the Japanese (and please, don't take my wording wrong here, like a Japanese, not as one)
おお！！大変かもしれないけど、頑張ってね！応援してるで！
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and the other guy who joined in after asking 「何の話」said:
え 日本以外で生まれたの？
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日本語流暢だね
まあ世界一難しい言語なだけあって
すごいよ
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I did the typical denial with そんな。。。何何 and so on. To be fair, I was using translations here and there for the longer sentences, so I felt even less deserving than normal of this compliment, but I think this is a normal way to compliment especially if you were originally speaking casually. No switch, so I'm thankful for it, even though I didn't feel like it was true, at least it wasn't the stereotypical 日本語上手 that you get for saying two words, and I could tell it was genuine. Good! Alright, that's the first set of events. I don't have a problem with what happened next, just for the record, but I found it funny, because it happens to me almost every time a Japanese finds out I'm not from Japan. You can skip to the next line if necessary, since this isn't crucial to the story, but I'm trying to build it up in order of these events that occurred for my realization.
日本で働きたいの？
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今日本は給料が少ないからおすすめしないよ
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アメリカかカナダで働いたら給料たくさんもらえるで
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スイスイでは銀行員で初任給50万円
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日本では銀行員の初任給25万円あるかどうか
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だから断然スイスで働くことをおすすめする
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まあ英語喋れないけどｗ
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I said I want to work there, while he was writing, and I guess he felt the need to send it all again, this time in one message, which I suspect maybe he thought that would make me understand better somehow, haha
and before I could say anything else, then he sent an English translation草
all I could say at that point was 大丈夫 because it became clear he wanted to make sure I knew at all costs that he doesn't think I should live in Japan and he was doing everything necessary to make sure I understood. I thought that was all and I was talking to my friend again, who was calling himself a genius (with my concurrence), and the other guy sends another message in English, again
Also, in Japan, there aren't many places that accept foreigners these days.
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So I asked what for, he said:
All I could say again was that I still think I'll be fine, and not to worry, and he said:
今君が何歳かは知らないけれど数年後にはその心配はなくなるんじゃない
Click to expand...
I told him I'm almost 20, and then I said shortly after that nobody would get in the way of my love and intertwinement/entanglement with the Land of Japan. My friend said みんな邪魔しそう, and I said they'll all fail. He replied to my friend, saying:
なんかそんな感じしそう
でも頑張って
Click to expand...
(last part was for me though I'm sure)
Once again, I don't have a problem with it in particular, it's just one of those funny things Japanese people tend to do to me a lot, they tell me a load of stuff about how Japan is a "sinking ship" and all the problems like the economy and the nankai trough that will happen and... what's that オノマトペ for the "nagging" in your ear again? Anyway it's just funny how persistent they always are about telling people to stay away from Japan, and also this leads up to the next part.
____________
Not even too long after, my friend seemed to repeat the mistake from before in a different manner. This time, because of my presence of simply watching the conversation, he added sentences (which only confused me AND seemingly the other guy too, by the way) because he thought I might not know about one of the words in his sentence while talking to another person. He was saying he's a cat, and the other guy said
猫にちゅーるあげてみたい
Click to expand...
Then my friend replied to him, and said
ちゅーる: 猫の食べ物
Click to expand...
To be fair, I didn't know what ちゅーる was, and the translator did pick it up weirdly at the time, but I just ignored it because I knew it wasn't an important word (just turns out to be a cat food brand, superficial information as I thought)... and yet he derailed his conversation and confused the guy he was talking to just to say that... The guy got just as confused as me, because he was replied to by my friend:
？ちゅーるって猫のやつだよね？
犬が食べてたけど猫のやつだよね
Click to expand...
and then my friend replies to him with this, which tells me everything I need to know...
彼は海外の方だから、ちゅーるをご存知ないと思ったので補足させてもらった
Click to expand...
I was just a bit upset about this, because just earlier we had agreed that he would talk normally and not have me affect his conversations or writing style, and yet for some reason he had to do this... I told him to speak normally, and he said that was him talking to the Japanese, which yes is true, but he added information that confused even his friend just because of my presence, which is the last thing I'd want my presence to be responsible for... I told him that he explained it as if nobody knew what ちゅーる was, even though the guy he was talking to was the one who mentioned the word in the first place, which made it confusing for the other guy and me, and I asked him to please not worry about me, and just talk normally.
I said that I didn't want to be a bother and to pretend I'm not there. Their responses were a bit surprising but in a good way, although it's probably best not to include it now because it doesn't lead up to the final blow. That section ended with me saying I just want them to relax around me and not have to behave differently because of my presence. I also want to point out, before moving on to the final event, that I do appreciate the efforts of the Japanese to "accomodate" me, and whatever else they want to do for what they think is my own good. But I'd truly prefer not to get that kind of special treatment if it's not necessary or even detrimental to my assimilation to Japanese society. I hope not to have a debate about that, so I'm being clear there. Alright, moving on!

Final Chapter
Keep in mind, all the events even up to this chapter happened within less than 2 hours. Now, this is the part which reveals my answer to this question, as well as the specific circumstances I was referring to in the first place.
The conversation had just shifted to there not being enough girls in the server (only two, compared to the 215 boys), and two new guys wanted more girls in the server (only Guy 2 is important for this story), while the server owner didn't really care about raising the female population in the server; 「女の子に注目する必要はない」, server owner (my friend) said, while Guy 2 said 「ゲイにはわからん」 (owner is bisexual, actually). Meanwhile, I was just asking my friend if there was really no other way to talk to Japanese people other than in designated areas for specifically doing that, and he eventually said 「無理＝無理」, so I said 「そういうことだ。。。」
meanwhile, since messages aren't perfectly sent/read linearly, I replied to guy 1 who said:
女の子もっと増やしたいってのは俺もめっちゃ思う
Click to expand...
with a classic "internet rule" at least in internet culture existent within the confines of the English language and said「ネットの女は存在しないｗ」
Guy 2 says this, not sure why, but anyway he said it:
女の子には無限の可能性があるんだよ、、
Click to expand...
and then he replied to when I said 「そういうことだ。。。」 to my friend, and said「tennouheika banzai!!!!」
I don't think he suspected me as being a foreigner at that point yet, I think he did it for a comedic effect of some sort, it felt that way at least. You guys can also let me know what you think when Japanese sometimes type in romaji on purpose, I've seen it before even when not directed at me so I'm sure it's not because he thinks it's easier for me to read. Anyway, that's not the focus, what comes next is where I got found out. He said some other stuff before this which I won't add here, probably not a good idea, but I ignored those and just replied to the previous comment I showed you guys. I replied with 「密かに男性としてバレる可能性を秘めている」 (hybrid/modified translation, I don't know if the grammar is slightly off in the middle because of that, but it seems the grammar isn't what gave it away, but my understanding of most girls on the internet not actually being girls (as a joke of course... half joking). He replied:
疑心暗鬼すぎだろ
日本人か
ネットとか騙されてなんぼ。女たらしてなんぼ
Click to expand...
I take the 日本人か as sarcasm, but let me know if I'm wrong on that. It seemed like he didn't seriously suspect me, but just maybe thought my thinking wasn't like that of a Japanese person, which would probably be right. Anyway, I dropped the bomb and said I'm an American. His (rather QUICK) response:
日本人みたいですね！
Click to expand...
Guy 1 also said shortly after, 「日本語も日本人も難しい。」
Queue the flashbacks/past occurrences of very similar things happening many times, as well as the things that occurred in the last two hours prior. Why?! (I already know the answer now of course, just for storyteller effect)
I was dumbfounded why he so quickly switched to using です towards me, especially when the other guy behaved normally when he found out I wasn't Japanese. Did I do something differently this time that made him feel like he needed to be polite to me? Well, all the other times the mistake I made was simply picking up on it and not asking, so this time I became a brave man and asked him directly why he switched.
「なぜ丁寧語に切り替えたのですか？」
His answer, very simple, told me everything I needed to know:
尊敬の意
Click to expand...
So there I had it... Now I could instantly fill in this answer and apply it to many other cases when the same thing occurred in a more similar way to this (unlike the youtube comments situation, which was a more special case). To hear this answer, I equally felt good and bad about it. At least it wasn't like intentional exclusion, I thought. However, undoubtedly it still did make me feel excluded, even if out of honor, it felt isolating, and above all, I thought that I didn't deserve this treatment. After I started regretting revealing my nationality and questioning whether I should release it, also telling the server owner that the information should be kept confidential from now on, Guy 2 later said:
I told him that I appreciate his kindness, but I also said that it's hard to explain how it feels like in my position. That I didn't want him to think of me as more special than the Japanese, or react differently just because I'm around. I apologized for complaining about it and said that I'd try to get along with him.
_______
Well, that's it, the answer to the situations that I was talking about is that they are simply respecting me... too much... I definitely don't want to be treated like a バカ外人 either, so I'm for sure grateful of that, since I've really never had that kind of experience with Japanese people for the most part except some mentally ill ones, but on the other hand I also don't really want to be treated in that kind of way where every time I do something as a foreigner, they stop seeing me as a friend or peer. The truth is that this really was happening in multiple cases. However, that's only half of the answer, and I only decided to come with the full answer/solution. The other half is a solution, that I shouldn't care anymore, because I'm eventually going to pick up on far worse social problems than this when I live in Japan, so I decide to come prepared to face any of that and not let these things get in my way anymore. Not gonna lie, it's still probably going to bug me or make me feel like I can't truly get close with Japanese people if they can only see me as 外国人 but if it takes being alone in Japan to achieve my goals successfully then I'm fine with that.

Thank you for taking the time to read any amount this topic is pretty much complete, so we should move to the next questions, since there's a lot I will have to ask soon, preferably before I make it to Japan (but whatever happens happens). I'm hoping there won't be any nitpicks about what's in the spoiler, but I won't complain if there are any.
 
I didn't read the detailed part of your post yet but the fact is, that you will pretty much always be the 外人 friend. That doesn't mean you can't make good friends or have close relationships but that will always be there. If you let it bother you, that will be a constant problem for you.
 
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