"Whale Wars"

[FrustratedDave]

The people not committing wholesale slaughter under the pretense of scientific research in an international whale sanctuary.

So you are arguing that it is ok to hunt whales if you go through the proper channels?

I don't see Japan hunting these animals. Although deer hunting not for sport to keep populations under control is in place here. What are your thoughts on that?

Deer Hunting

Seal hunting

 

[Nuala]

So you are arguing that it is ok to hunt whales if you go through the proper channels?

I think it's deplorable that whales are hunted altogether. Will I eat the meat myself? Will I be friends with someone who eats whale meat? Do I understand the desire to build state-of-the-art ships meant only for hunting whales? Do I approve of the Japanese hunting in a whale sanctuary?

No.

Deer Hunting

Yeah, we don't build giant land ships/tanks meant only to hunt deer. I approve of hunting deers, considering people typically kill deers rather quickly(unlike the Japanese whaling fleet with whales). Deer hunting weapons in the United States include: recurve/compound bows, crossbows, rifles, shotguns, pistols, and muzzleloaders. Alabama even allows people to hunt with spears, but rest assured, they die very quickly no matter which way you look at it. And hunting out of season is so very illegal here.

By the way, you are a cruel man for invoking Thor's Law*.

Seal hunting

I'm okay with seal hunting by aboriginal Canadians for use in various items, such as waterproof boots/jackets. I'm not a huge fan of seal pelts being exported by the thousands to meet some sort of retarded demand from those who desire seal fur coats, or vests. What I absolutely cannot approve of is baby seal hunting.

*Thor's law is often cited in online discussions concerning whale hunting as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread reductio ad Bambium form. The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Bambi might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Thor has argued that overuse of Bambi comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Eskimos harvest whales and other marine mammals using modern technology -- aluminum-hulled boats, outboard motors, rifles, explosive harpoons, cellphones, GPS units, and so forth.

Furthermore, they share, barter, trade, and sell part or all of their harvest to other Eskimos. Whale meat is used as a commodity and currency in their villages.

I can't see any difference from what the Japanese are doing. Maybe Japanese harvest more whales than Eskimos, but is that a real distinction?

 

[Nuala]

Eskimos harvest whales and other marine mammals using modern technology -- aluminum-hulled boats, outboard motors, rifles, explosive harpoons, cellphones, GPS units, and so forth.

Furthermore, they share, barter, trade, and sell part or all of their harvest to other Eskimos. Whale meat is used as a commodity and currency in their villages.

I can't see any difference from what the Japanese are doing. Maybe Japanese harvest more whales than Eskimos, but is that a real distinction?

Yeah, when I went to Japan, some psycho store clerk was trying to sell me a Playstation 3 for 2 lbs of whale meat. I thought it was a tad ridiculous for a PS3, so I offered him 1 1/2 pounds of whale meat, and he conceded, and I walked home with a PS3 at a killer price.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I think it's deplorable that whales are hunted altogether. Will I eat the meat myself? Will I be friends with someone who eats whale meat? Do I understand the desire to build state-of-the-art ships meant only for hunting whales? Do I approve of the Japanese hunting in a whale sanctuary?

Yeah, we don't build giant land ships/tanks meant only to hunt deer. I approve of hunting deers, considering people typically kill deers rather quickly(unlike the Japanese whaling fleet with whales). Deer hunting weapons in the United States include: recurve/compound bows, crossbows, rifles, shotguns, pistols, and muzzleloaders. Alabama even allows people to hunt with spears, but rest assured, they die very quickly no matter which way you look at it. And hunting out of season is so very illegal here.

I'm okay with seal hunting by aboriginal Canadians for use in various items, such as waterproof boots/jackets. I'm not a huge fan of seal pelts being exported by the thousands to meet some sort of retarded demand from those who desire seal fur coats, or vests. What I absolutely cannot approve of is baby seal hunting.

Yep, those deer die real fast with an arrow stuck in their side. The ignorance flows on.

Just a taste of what is out there in the hunting scenes done by an estimated 11 million hunters in the US alone. No they don't have big land ships, b/c it is impractical to hunt in a wooded area with vehciles , but they have numbers. But that doesn't really matter anyway, b/c your ignorance just flows on, some of these animals can take 8-12 hours to die.

Sounds like you are really well researched up.

Youtube deer kills
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Dieing Deer
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value=""></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

 

[Nuala]

Yep, those deer die real fast with an arrow stuck in their side. The ignorance flows on.

Just a taste of what is out there in the hunting scenes done by an estimated 11 million hunters in the US alone. No they don't have big land ships, b/c it is impractical to hunt in a wooded area with vehciles , but they have numbers. But that doesn't really matter anyway, b/c your ignorance just flows on, some of these animals can take 8-12 hours to die.

I'm ignorant because a few idiots make the entire hunting community look bad? Those monsters should have shot it in the head and killed it quickly. That's what they should have done. That's what I would have done. I cannot account for every hunter in the United States of America.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I'm ignorant because a few idiots make the entire hunting community look bad? Those monsters should have shot it in the head and killed it quickly. That's what they should have done. That's what I would have done. I cannot account for every hunter in the United States of America.

Well there you go, even if it is just one deer that dies this way it is ok to turn a blind eye? I don't see how you can condem the Japanese whaling in one breath and defend the hunting community in the other? And you are right you can't account for every hunter in the world, but what you saw is not just practiced by a few hunters...

And by the way, why is there an industry that sells weapons for hunting? Always researching new and better ways for the hunter to get his catch in the process spending hug amounts of dollars? Again your remarks on not understanding whalers building "state-of-the-art ships" for hunting are very contradictory.

You endorse one type of hunting but condone another purely based on your opinion, which mind you is not subjective.

 

[hsakakibara1]

Japan kills whales (in the ocean) while America kills people (in the Middle East). Which is better?

 

[FrustratedDave]

What, no rebuttal?

 

[hsakakibara1]

The people not committing wholesale slaughter under the pretense of scientific research in an international whale sanctuary.

Like the slaughter of cows and pigs and chickens. I fail to see the difference.
If whales can be bred like other farm animals, would there still be an outcry?

 

[Nuala]

I have to take a breather from this discussion. Too much rage, just way too much.

 

[hsakakibara1]

http://www.da4a.org/cows.htm

Here is a link for those of you who think that animals are killed humanely for food.

 

[MadamePapillon]

Just sayin', typically deer and seals are killed in quick, humane ways and the practice is very regulated and has numerous laws in place to protect the animals in question.

But, for the sake of argument, here's some questions to ask if you really are on the side of whalers and believe it to be a good practice:

Is there really any quick way to kill a whale, are humane techniques being researched?

Do ships face fines for killing young or juvenile whales?

Are they allowed to hunt during breeding season?

How strict a regulation is kept on the whaling ships and the numbers of whales they are allowed to kill?

Are the whaling communities actively participating in the regulation of whale hunting to protect the species (as in the case of deer hunting and seal hunting) and/or protection acts?

Is the whale meats being used to the full benefit of the community (last I heard huge amounts of whale meat were rotting away in storage due to lack of demand to meet the supply, sounds like a poor use of resources to me).

Is the whale populations being actively and aggressively tracked to ensure sustainability?

Are the whalers allowing independent monitoring of their whaling practices to prevent unnecessary cruelty or bad practices?

Is any scientific data actually being produced by these "scientific" hunts?

Is the public being educated on the possible dangers of whale meat?

As with any hunting industry there needs to be strict rules, regulations and protocols to follow. Personally I find the whaling industry to be a very slipshod excuse for a meat industry (especially since they aren't even officially a meat industry, they're operating under a loophole). Even if I did support whaling I still think it needs to be heavily monitored, much more so than deer or cows as the oceans is an extremely fragile ecosystem and it seems like not nearly enough research is being done to ensure the whalers impact on their hunting grounds is as minimal as possible.

Japan in particular is known for unsustainable fishing practices, why does anyone think their whaling practices would be any different?

Sorry but there's a whole bunch of reasons to not support whaling and precious few that make the practice seem even remotely necessary.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

I'd be more interested in these questions:

1. Are whales killed by the best and least-painful methods possible? Bear in mind that it's impossible, even in heavily-regulated hunting, to always ensure an instant, painless death for the animal.

Bear in mind that nature itself does not provide for such a death. Left to nature, all animals will inevitably die painful deaths due to disease, starvation, or predation (being eaten alive by bigger or stronger animals). I've seen them all in land mammals, and none of them are pretty, quick, or painless.

The test for whalers ought not to be perfection in achieving quick, painless deaths, but whether the death is inhumane in comparison with natural death.

2. Are whalers hunting endangered species? American Eskimos certainly are; they hunt bowhead and humpback whales. But the Japanese hunt minke whales, whose populations are stable or growing around the world.

Incidentally, land hunting is heavily regulated because there are not enough game animals for the number of hunters. If whalers were hunting endangered or declining whale populations, my attitude would be entirely different. But when populations are stable, why would more regulations be needed?

3. Do whalers waste the meat? My understanding is the meat goes to market. Some spoilage and wastage is inevitable in any meat industry. The real question is whether that's the norm or the exception in this industry.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I agree with you on point #1, there's rarely such thing as a painless death, especially in the wild, my question was if anything was being actively pursued in researching more effective ways of making the deaths as quick and humane as possible. Just because animals can die in slow and painful ways that doesn't mean we shouldn't still respect them and try to at least give them the courtesy of a clean and quick death.

I know without a doubt the way the Japanese kill dolphins is absolutely atrocious and I don't suspect their whaling is much better considering whales are far harder to bring down than dolphins.

My main problem with point #2 is that population reports always seem to be sketchy at best, guesswork at worse. It's much harder to track animal populations in the sea then on land and I've seen vastly different reports on both sides as to Minke Whale populations.

As for #3, as I said before, last I heard large stocks of whale meat were going to waste in warehouses because the demand just wasn't there. I believe Japan was actually trying to sell their overabundance of meat to whale eating European countries.

 

[FrustratedDave]

I agree with you on point #1, there's rarely such thing as a painless death, especially in the wild, my question was if anything was being actively pursued in researching more effective ways of making the deaths as quick and humane as possible. Just because animals can die in slow and painful ways that doesn't mean we shouldn't still respect them and try to at least give them the courtesy of a clean and quick death.
I know without a doubt the way the Japanese kill dolphins is absolutely atrocious and I don't suspect their whaling is much better considering whales are far harder to bring down than dolphins.
My main problem with point #2 is that population reports always seem to be sketchy at best, guesswork at worse. It's much harder to track animal populations in the sea then on land and I've seen vastly different reports on both sides as to Minke Whale populations.
As for #3, as I said before, last I heard large stocks of whale meat were going to waste in warehouses because the demand just wasn't there. I believe Japan was actually trying to sell their overabundance of meat to whale eating European countries.

Have you even researched any of those questions or are you just making statements b/c that is what you have "heard" ? The answers are all in the IWC's reports?
In regards to killing of deer and other animals as quick, I suggest you go back and look at the videos of deer hunting.

I am wondering how many people are victims of propaganda? As for the method of killing whales, here is how they are killed.

" Q7. Is it possible to kill whales humanely?
In fact, a large proportion of the whales taken are killed instantly by an explosive harpoon and for those cases when they are not, a secondary killing method (a second harpoon or high caliber rifle) ensures that the time to death is as rapid as possible. These two methods were introduced to ensure the most efficient and humane killing. The IWC has said that the explosive harpoon is the most effective method for killing whales and significant improvements to the humaneness of the hunt have been achieved. Instantaneous death and time to death of less than two minutes for whales is far better than the killing of most other wildlife. "

That is far more quickly than 8 hours in some instances for hunted deer.

And everyone is b!tching about the research part, but I don't doubt they are doing very valuable research. One thing people are good at over here is making ungodly amounts of paperwork for business under government Jurisdiction. Here is one prelimery research paper. And it show data on things like heavy metals. LINK Which can't obtained by asking the whale spew up its stomach contents. The research is also studying the sustainablity, whcih shows mink whales are on the increase even though they are mainly the whales hunted. All this info and I am neither for or against whaling.

I can't believe how naive some people can be. Have a look at those chickens being raised for food. LINK 1 , LINK 2


"What happens to the 250 million male chicks born to hens in the U.S. egg industry each year?
Along with defective and slow-hatching female chicks, they are trashed as soon as they hatch. Upon breaking out of their shells, instead of being sheltered by a mother's wings, the newborns are ground up alive, electrocuted, or thrown into trashcans where they slowly suffocate on top of one another, peeping to death while a human foot stomps them down to make more room for more chicks. Because the male chicken of the egg industry cannot lay eggs, and has not been genetically manipulated for profitable meat production, he is of no use to the egg industry. Destruction of unwanted male chicks is a worldwide practice."

You should all stop eating meat altogether.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

Dave:

There are three species of animals that are poster-children for animal rights groups:

1. Whales.

2. Wolves.

3. Baby fur seals.

Show some video of one of these animals in piteous circumstances, and you'll rake in the donations. Wayne Pacelle, president of Humane Society of the US, gets an $800,000 salary. Pretty good for a non-profit, supposedly-altruistic organization, wouldn't you say?

I know about deer hunting, but won't join your discussion; I'd just as soon keep whales on the front lines.

 

[Half-n-Half]

Pretty good for a non-profit, supposedly-altruistic organization, wouldn't you say?

Non-profit is a term used too much to endear to would-be donators as a "hey, we're one of you 'cuz we're not in it for the money" tactic. In reality, all "non-profit" means is that the organization doesn't turn a profit. They can still bring in money, but as long as they distribute all of that around with no actual profit they can call themselves "non-profit." That's why I don't put much stock in an organization that calls themselves non-profit; they can still be doing it for the money

 

[hsakakibara1]

I'd be more interested in these questions:

1. Are whales killed by the best and least-painful methods possible? Bear in mind that it's impossible, even in heavily-regulated hunting, to always ensure an instant, painless death for the animal.

Bear in mind that nature itself does not provide for such a death. Left to nature, all animals will inevitably die painful deaths due to disease, starvation, or predation (being eaten alive by bigger or stronger animals). I've seen them all in land mammals, and none of them are pretty, quick, or painless.

The test for whalers ought not to be perfection in achieving quick, painless deaths, but whether the death is inhumane in comparison with natural death.

2. Are whalers hunting endangered species? American Eskimos certainly are; they hunt bowhead and humpback whales. But the Japanese hunt minke whales, whose populations are stable or growing around the world.

Incidentally, land hunting is heavily regulated because there are not enough game animals for the number of hunters. If whalers were hunting endangered or declining whale populations, my attitude would be entirely different. But when populations are stable, why would more regulations be needed?

3. Do whalers waste the meat? My understanding is the meat goes to market. Some spoilage and wastage is inevitable in any meat industry. The real question is whether that's the norm or the exception in this industry.

If you had any idea of how animals were slaughtered for food in "industrialized farming" situations, you would become vegetarian (if not already). I am not saying that whales are killed humanely, only that killing of whales is no different from that of other animals. If it were not Japan but Canada or another Western country that was killing whales, I doubt there would be this much of a fuss. So I think a lot of it is also racism by the mainstream Western media. Again, do you see mass demonstrations against the big animal farmers in the West? No! But why not, as they kill just as inhuamely as the Japanese do the whales.

 

[MadamePapillon]

If you had any idea of how animals were slaughtered for food in "industrialized farming" situations, you would become vegetarian (if not already). I am not saying that whales are killed humanely, only that killing of whales is no different from that of other animals. If it were not Japan but Canada or another Western country that was killing whales, I doubt there would be this much of a fuss. So I think a lot of it is also racism by the mainstream Western media. Again, do you see mass demonstrations against the big animal farmers in the West? No! But why not, as they kill just as inhuamely as the Japanese do the whales.

Actually there was "that much fuss" which is why hunting whales is outlawed by most Western nations.

I don't know why people continue to bring up the West in these kinds of debates as if Western farming and hunting practices aren't ALWAYS (and I do mean always, public scrutiny of everything from seal hunts to treatment of chickens to pet food companies hasn't let up at all) under attack.

Why is it when someone critiques Japan on their whale hunting people take personal offense to it and begin bringing up "the West", as if "the West" isn't it's own harshest critic on matters such as animal cruelty?

Why do you think "the West" has imposed some of the strictest and harshest laws on animal cruelty in the world on itself? Is it perfect? Hell no, but you absolutely cannot say that the West is harsher on the East and wouldn't make such a fuss if it were Canada or another Western country because that has already been proven wrong several times over.


@FrustratedDave

Same as above. "But the West isn't perfect either" isn't an argument. That's like saying Japan can't critique the farming habits of the West because they hunt whales so that makes their opinion invalid. It's an Ad hominem argument and I'm surprised you all have resorted to it.


Also, the harpoon argument is very hit an miss. Yes it IS possible to use an exploding harpoon effectively but it all depends on the skill of the hunter. And, as we have seen before (as in the case of the Dolphin hunts and even your deer vids) just because a method of hunting CAN be quick that doesn't mean it will be. Whales are infinitely harder to target and kill than deer and unless you have a skilled and precise hunter behind that harpoon it's just not going to be that effective. Two minutes or instantaneous is best case scenario.

Here is one prelimery research paper. And it show data on things like heavy metals.

So upwards of 6000 whales were killed between the years 1987/88-2004/05 to gather allllll that compelling data? All those years and all those thousands of whales and that's all the preliminary data they've accumulated? Seriously? It's two pages of male/female totals, sample numbers and a table of index.

And half the information in the table of index is related to climate conditions, acoustics and sightings. Hardly compelling evidence to suggest that all those whales harvested have served any significant scientific purpose.

 

[hsakakibara1]

That is because the West was and is always trying to tell the whole world how to live. Everything, from religion to fashion and food (can't eat whales, dogs, horses, etc.) to how to f$%k (missionary style) was and is dictated by the West. Frankly, we are tired of it.

Eating whales is no better or worse than any other mammal. I do agree that whales should be bred like we do other farm animals, but eating something for food should not be seen as bad.

 

[MadamePapillon]

I do agree that whales should be bred like we do other farm animals

I'm sure if you give that more than a moments thought you would realize how incredibly ill conceived that idea is.
People can barely farm chicken and fish in humane and safe ways, can you just imagine what sort of horrible torture pit the 'whale farms' would be.
Here's an idea, imagine sea world only 100x bigger and 5 times more crowded filled with hundreds and hundred of whales all crowded together in cramped quarters filled with disease and unsanitary conditions ... and, just for fun, imagine 'farmers' harpooning them all to death in front of each other ... now imagine that video making it's way to youtube.

 

[RolandtheHeadless]

"If you had any idea of how animals were slaughtered for food in "industrialized farming" situations, you would become vegetarian (if not already)."

No, I wouldn't. If God hadn't intended for us to eat animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat that tastes so good and feels so satisfying.

"Also, the harpoon argument is very hit an miss."

Pun intended? lol

"Yes it IS possible to use an exploding harpoon effectively but it all depends on the skill of the hunter. And, as we have seen before (as in the case of the Dolphin hunts and even your deer vids) just because a method of hunting CAN be quick that doesn't mean it will be. Whales are infinitely harder to target and kill than deer and unless you have a skilled and precise hunter behind that harpoon it's just not going to be that effective. Two minutes or instantaneous is best case scenario."

Whalers are professional hunters. Most all deer hunters are amateurs. Who do you really think is more skilled and precise?

 

[Red5]

hemmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[FrustratedDave]

@FrustratedDave

Same as above. "But the West isn't perfect either" isn't an argument. That's like saying Japan can't critique the farming habits of the West because they hunt whales so that makes their opinion invalid. It's an Ad hominem argument and I'm surprised you all have resorted to it.

You know what they say, people who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses. Besides that, why should it not be compared to other meat industries?

Also, the harpoon argument is very hit an miss. Yes it IS possible to use an exploding harpoon effectively but it all depends on the skill of the hunter. And, as we have seen before (as in the case of the Dolphin hunts and even your deer vids) just because a method of hunting CAN be quick that doesn't mean it will be. Whales are infinitely harder to target and kill than deer and unless you have a skilled and precise hunter behind that harpoon it's just not going to be that effective. Two minutes or instantaneous is best case scenario.

The average death time is 2 minutes, which means some die faster and some die slower, so no I would not say that is best case scenario.

You point out the supposed flaws in the "But the West isn't perfect either" argument and even though I was the one who brought it up, you make a comparison that killing dear would be easier. So it has to be asked ,does then matter how quickly the animals are killed if it is in fact an invalid to argument on what the west does?

So upwards of 6000 whales were killed between the years 1987/88-2004/05 to gather allllll that compelling data? All those years and all those thousands of whales and that's all the preliminary data they've accumulated? Seriously? It's two pages of male/female totals, sample numbers and a table of index.

And half the information in the table of index is related to climate conditions, acoustics and sightings. Hardly compelling evidence to suggest that all those whales harvested have served any significant scientific purpose.

You are not seriously going to stand there and say is that all there is in regards to research data? I stated speicifically that the PDF file was a "preliminary" report, which means that there is much more in depth data in regards to these headings. What do you want me to do, post all the data released thus far? I hope you have plenty of time to read them, b/c I sure don't have the time to post all the complete data facts.

Speaking of things not supported, where is this evidence that whale meat is sitting in whare houses waiting to spoil? I don't doubt that some meat will go bad for what ever reason, but what data do you have to support this?

All your statements and accusations seem to be propaganda fed, I mean, you didn't even know how they were killed until I pointed it out, after I did you make a statement that "Two minutes or instantaneous is best case scenario." for killing whales. It is only your conclusion that it would best case scenario. I am not into making assumptions on things I don't know and I will only comment on the researched data at hand.