Volitional + とする and volitional + と～ question

[killerinsidee]

I was going over Trying or attempting something – Learn Japanese earlier and something confused me a bit. At the end there are 2 examples - 「勉強をなるべく避けようと思った。」 and「 毎日ジムに行こうと決めた。」. While I understand that (よ)うとする has the "attempt/try" meaning, I can't see why 「勉強をなるべく避けようと思った」doesn't just mean "I thought I would attempt to avoid studying as much as possible. ", i.e., just the normal "something + と" without the "attempt/try". Also 「毎日ジムに行こうと決めた」- "Decided to attempt to go to gym everyday. " On the other hand, I think those sentences could be written without the volitional form and mean the same thing (without the attempt nuance) - 「勉強をなるべく避けると思った」「毎日ジムに行くと決めた。」. Maybe the volitional form adds more emphasis.

Some more examples:
少し旅に出ようと思った。- "I thought I'd do some travelling."
温泉へ行ってリフレッシュして来ようと思う。- "I think I'll spend a few days at a hot spring to recharge my batteries."
私は体重が 50 キロまで行ったら少しダイエットしようと決めている. - "I've decided to go on a short diet if my weight reaches 50 kilograms."

It doesn't feel to me like there's a "try/attempt" there. Maybe I have the wrong idea about (よ)うとする. It should be a set phrase. Does (よ)うと by itself have the "try/attempt" nuance? I'm under the impression that the whole thing adds the said nuance.

In this case 「電話に出ようと立ち上がる」, I can see it meaning "trying", but I think that's different. It's something like "in order to do" or "in attempt to". (Stand up trying/in attempt to answer the phone.)

I would appreciate it if someone could clarify this for me.

 

[letslearn]

I'm not totally sure. But looking at the link you provided. All the sentences at the end using とする have the nuance of attempting but not necessarily achieving or doing the action. I think if you swapped 見る and とする in the okonomiyake example the meaning nuance would change. I attempted to eat the Hiroshima okonomiyake. maybe the subject didn't usually like okonomiyake but will try and see if he can eat it.
Just my thoughts anyway.

 

[Toritoribe]

First of all, 思う means more likely "to dicide", not just "to think", in ～（よ）うと思う.
The volitional form ～（よ）う expresses the speaker's will at that time. 勉強をなるべく避けようと思った shows that the subject decided to avoid study in the past, whereas 勉強をなるべく避けようと思う means that they have decided it now. On the other hand, 勉強をなるべく避けると思った is a presumption "I thought I/you/they would avoid~", since 思う means "to think" here. The subject of 避ける and the subject of 思った can be different in this case, as in my translation above.
As for 毎日ジムに行こうと決めた, 決めた can't be used for presumption and 行く is a volitional verb, so 行こうと決めた and 行くと決めた are almost the same.

It's quite the same in the other examples.
少し旅に出ると思った and 温泉へ行ってリフレッシュして来ると思う are a presumption, whereas ダイエットしようと決めている and ダイエットすると決めている are almost the same.

As for 電話に出ようと立ち上がる, it's considered 電話に出ようとして立ち上がる, so your interpretation "in order to" is correct.


お好み焼きを初めて食べてみたけど and お好み焼きを初めて食べようとしたけど are completely different. The former means that the speaker/writer really ate it but the latter is not so, thus, お好み焼きを初めて食べようとしたけど、とてもおいしかった！ is semantically odd (they didn't eat it, nevertheless they say it was very tasty).

 

[killerinsidee]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, it helps a lot .

Just to confirm, so I can put this grammar point to rest.
"Though we use the verb 「する」 to say, "to do attempt", we can use different verbs to do other things with the attempt. For instance, we can use the verb 「決める」 to say, "decide to attempt to do [X]". Here are some examples of other actions carried out on the attempt. " - is wrong and has nothing to do with attempting/trying anything? This makes it seem like you can take the volitional form, put と after it with some verb and it will mean "attempt verb + verb". Unless he means - intend=attempt.

Only two things that have the attempt nuance are て見る and (よ)うとする as far as I know. Difference is in the past tense, where the the latter implies that someone attempted something, but didn't in the end didn't manage to do it (taken from DBJG).
This was the source of my confusion.

Outside of those 2, I can't find any mention of said meaning anywhere.

 

[Toritoribe]

The volitional form "～（よ）う" and the structure "～（よ）うとする (to attempt to do)" are different. Isn't this the key of your confusion?

～てみる and ～(よ)うとする are different also in the present form and the present progressive form. For instance, 赤ちゃんはなんでも口に入れてみる means that babies actually put something in their mouths, whereas 赤ちゃんはなんでも口に入れようとする expresses that they (tend to) attempt to do so, and doesn't (always) mean they actually to do so. Similarly, 今食べてみている shows that the subject already starts eating now, but 今食べようとしている is "they are just about to eat", i.e., "they don't eat it yet".

 

[killerinsidee]

The volitional form "～（よ）う" and the structure "～（よ）うとする (to attempt to do)" are different. Isn't this the key of your confusion?

Yeah. I'm just wondering if the volitional form has some sort of "attempt" nuance by itself. I always thought of it like a "I will..." or "intend to". Since you wrote it like "to attempt to do", I guess it does?

I also checked what 研究社 has to say about （よ）うとする: " …しようとする 〔もう少しで…しそうだ〕 look as if…; be about to do; 〔…することを意図する〕 intend [attempt, try] to do."
So I guess thinking of it as "intend" is not wrong either?

I understand everything else related to this just fine (みる vs ようとする), that's not a problem.
Sorry for overcomplicating this, I just don't want to get the wrong idea about it. Guess I fell into one of those "thinking in English too much" traps. :/

 

[Toritoribe]

～（よ）う, ～（よ）うと思う or ～（よ）うと決める expresses just a dicision in mind. They decide to do so, but might not do anything. On the other hand, ～（よ）うとする is often accompanied with action. For instance, in the sentence 彼は部屋を出ていこうとした, he might get up from his chair and walk to the door (but didn't go out of the room in the end).

 

[killerinsidee]

I see. Thanks for clearing it up. Sorry for wasting your time on such trivial questions :/.

 

[Toritoribe]

No problem and no need to apologize. This is the exact place for asking those kind of questions.

 

[killerinsidee]

I have another question related to this. I'll ask here so I don't make 1 more thread about it. It's about ～ようとしている (progressive).

I was looking up some examples on alc and I noticed these translations:
誰かが私の家に入ろうとしているんです。There's someone trying to get into my house.
vs
国境を越えて～に入ろうとしている。Be about to cross into ～ / ～の時代に入ろうとしている。 be about to enter the age of
I checked in the dictionary and there are 2 possibilities for this - "…しようとする 〔もう少しで…しそうだ〕 look as if…; be about to do; 〔…することを意図する〕 intend [attempt, try] to do. "

I'm wondering if the only way to differentiate between those 2 is just by context? In the example here - 「国境を越えて～に入ろうとしている」sounds to me like "Someone is attempting to cross the border" (i.e. some criminal escaping), rather then "on the verge of...", but both seem to be possible. Same thing in the house sentence.
On the other hand, in an example like 「日が沈もうとしている.」(The sun is about to set.), it doesn't make much sense to translate it as "attempting to sink", so just "on the verge of..." works here.
It seems that only the progressive form can have the "on the verge" meaning, as far as I saw from the alc examples.

Does this rely on context only or am I looking at it wrong?

 

[Toritoribe]

Right, the meaning changes depending on the context in the first two examples (誰かが… and 国境を…). 誰かが私の家に入ろうとしているんです can be used in both 1) the speaker is making an emergency call to police (someone is outside their house right now) and 2) the speaker is explaining to police about events in the past few days (for instance, with showing security video images). Similarly, 国境を越えて隣国に入ろうとしている can describe 1) what they are seeing right now or 2) a criminal's escape plan they are listening in.
(1 = to be about to do, 2 = to be trying to do)
Whereas, both ～の時代に入ろうとしている and 日が沈もうとしている can only mean "to be about to do", as you presumed. The key is that these two verbs 入る and 沈む are both non-volitional and therefore can't be "to try/attempt to do".

As for the present form ～（よ）とする, it can mean "to be about to do" when used in an attributive clause (e.g. 家に入ろうとする泥棒を押し倒した, 新しい時代に入ろうとする日本, 日が沈もうとする頃).

 

[killerinsidee]

You said that 入る is non-volitional verb and can't mean "to try/attempt to do", while you wrote it as a possibility in those 2 sentences above. How am I to differentiate what a volitional and a non-volitional verb is? Care to elaborate?

Also, I feel like those 2 meanings (1 = to be about to do, 2 = to be trying to do) are almost interchangeable in the situations you presented (誰かが… and 国境を…), especially "1) the speaker is making an emergency call to police (someone is outside their house right now)", but I see your point.

 

[Morphling]

Volitional + とする and volitional + と〜 question

You said that 入る is non-volitional verb and can't mean "to try/attempt to do", while you wrote it as a possibility in those 2 sentences above. How am I to differentiate what a volitional and a non-volitional verb is? Care to elaborate?

Basically you have to differentiate from context. Volitional simply means with intention and non-Volitional means without intention. Basically if it is an conscious act it is Volitional.

新時代に入る = Entering an new era. It's not an action that can be performed consciously with intent. It just happens so it is non-Volitional.

泥棒が家に入る thief enters the house. The action is intentional. You don't accidentally break in, you do it with intent. Hence Volitional. This all applies to English as well but it is not as important as Japanese.

Volition is important in Japanese grammar. Another example is ために、ように. Both means in order to fulfill a purpose but former is Volitional and latter is non-Volitional.

本を読むために図書館に行く。
日本の古典が理解できるように日本文学を専攻する。

 

[Toritoribe]

Also, I feel like those 2 meanings (1 = to be about to do, 2 = to be trying to do) are almost interchangeable in the situations you presented (誰かが… and 国境を…), especially "1) the speaker is making an emergency call to police (someone is outside their house right now)", but I see your point.

誰かが私の家に入ろうとしているんです in the case1 refers to a situation someone is doing the action 私の家に入る right now, for instance they have climbed over the gate, whereas in the case 2 they might just come and go on the street in front of the gate. Also, how about a stiation the speaker is on a train and saying 国境を越えて隣国に入ろうとしている? This refers to an actual action, not a plan.


Here's another good example of "volitional vs non-volitional" related to ～（よ）う.

もうじき日が沈もう。

This is a bit classical expression of presumption, which is equivalent to ～だろう in modern Japanese. 沈む is non-volitional, so it can't be the speaker's will or invitation, unlike, for instance, 明日映画見に行こう.

 

[killerinsidee]

Thanks for clearing it up, both of you.