Virginia Tech school shooting

[Anohito]

Actually many kids on the school shooting team stated that if they had only had a permit to carry a concealed weapon maybe a few less people would have died. I'm not sure that I agree with that though.

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.

 

[KirinMan]

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.

I agree with CC1 here, even if it was the school shooting team, would you want a bunch of university aged students, trained or otherwise, walking around campus with loaded weapons?

I dont think that would be a solution. It's kind of easy to say afterwards that "I wish I had done this" or "if I had been there I could have prevented that", you never know they could have been added to the body count as well.

 

[Anohito]

I agree with CC1 here, even if it was the school shooting team, would you want a bunch of university aged students, trained or otherwise, walking around campus with loaded weapons?

I dont think that would be a solution. It's kind of easy to say afterwards that "I wish I had done this" or "if I had been there I could have prevented that", you never know they could have been added to the body count as well.

Perhaps the English-language expression "consider the source" does not travel well. My point was that the people on the school shooting team are just the sort of people who would be eager to have lots of heavily-armed people on campus. I am not eager to have such a thing happen. See my earlier statements indicating the dangers of mixing guns and booze.

 

[KirinMan]

Perhaps the English-language expression "consider the source" does not travel well. My point was that the people on the school shooting team are just the sort of people who would be eager to have lots of heavily-armed people on campus. I am not eager to have such a thing happen. See my earlier statements indicating the dangers of mixing guns and booze.

Sorry about that, it travels well enough verbally. I took it literally

 

[Sarapva]

You know, if people are picking on you, bullying you, or calling you names, there are many things that you can do besides going on a shooting rampage. If you are hurting, get help. If you are ill, seek care. If you are depressed, find someone who can help you through it. If you are shy or lonely... again, you can do something about it.

This is true for people who are not seriously mentally ill, but for children who are abused (sexually or physically or both), something happens to them mentally that changes what most of us think of as "normal" thinking patterns. If they don't get help, this just gets worse and can erupt finally in violence.

Obeika has a point also, though - Cho's family was Asian and he was obviously in the middle of two cultures. That could have caused confusion about how to deal with his situation.

 

[sabro]

The vast majority of the mentally ill and of survivors of childhood sexual abuse don't go on to commit murder. Most Asian Americans don't kill. Most paranoid schizophrenics don't commit murder. Many do actually get help. In spite of the demons that may have troubled Cho, he alone is responsible for his actions. It seems like several people did try to help, there were many referrals for counselling and the police tried to get him committed.

There is a lot of speculation about what could have been done differently. There will be a lot of second guessing about everything-- about whether the campus should have been shut down-- about how the campus and law enforcement responded to warning signs. But remember: This was a safe campus in a safe community. Perhaps if there were more trained and armed campus police around something could have been done differently, but I doubt having a legion of armed students would make a healthier or safer campus.

I don't think NBC should have released so much of the video and photo material... it seems irresponsible and gratuitous. Many of the families and survivors saw the disturbing images and were exposed to his hateful words.

 

[diceke]

I agree with this - I worked in a psychiatric hospital for a while, and one thing I learned there was that kids (and adults) who commit violent crimes are people who have been abused themselves. The plays Cho wrote seem to be screaming this out - it seems to me that the counselors must have seen this. He obviously needed help that he didn't get. And in elementary and high school when a person seems to be different or not on top of things, they're an obvious target for more abuse.
I was also bullied and teased in school, and I also thought it was my fault for not being more outgoing, but now I see it was just the "animal instinct" to attack the sick or weak. As humans we should get beyond this and reach out to someone who seems to need some help, or at the very least not attack them just because they're different or can't defend themselves. I can see how a person like Cho could have tolerated this until he couldn't tolerate it anymore. That would make anyone psychotic.

Cho needed help, cause he was different, and other people would abuse him?
Like what kind of help could professionals have offered? You know, counselors and psychiatrists are pretty incompetent. They can "treat" you, but they can't "cure" you. After intervention, social injustices won't go away, and the problems are still there.

 

[maushan3]

Yes, he was bullied. I just read an article that states that he had a speech problem, that he talked like he had something in his mouth and therefore avoided talking so nobody would know about his issue. A ex-feller of his in middle school tells about one time in English class and it was his time to read, so he started reading and talked really weird and all this people started harrassing him and telling him things like "Go back to China" and stuff. So, yeah, it is pretty sad; the saddest thing here is that school shootings have happened since like a decade ago and students still don't understand that bullying can lead to this, they don't understand how much damage they put into someone.

I have a pretty mild stuttering problem. Nothing big, I think many people don't even notice it, but sometimes it comes and might be noticeable, like I get stuck on a word or something and, yeah, I've been told about this by people but I don't let it get to me, I just smile and tell them to shut up. I will be getting speech therapy soon.

Mauricio

 

[sabro]

I'm asian, a minority in a majority latino neighborhood... I stuttered and had speech problems. I was bullied... stabbed once, spat on, burned with a book of matches, jumped on a couple of occasions... Still no excuse for murdering dozens of people.

 

[DoctorP]

"The school shooting team..." Consider the source.

You should note that I didn't agree with the statement, only repeating what was said!

As for blame...why aren't the parents being held responsible? They should have surely known what was going on.

If people strictly think that this was due to teasing and bullying...maybe you should think twice before moving to a foreign land, marrying a local, and having children...then choosing to live in that country long term. I guarantee that your kids will go through this first hand!

 

[Davey]

Teasing and bullying are a part of life (sad, but that's the way it is), your parents and your school are the ones who should take teach you how to deal with it, the same they should teach you how to deal with other things in life.

And from a certain moment you should take care of it yourself.

 

[diceke]

So, yeah, it is pretty sad; the saddest thing here is that school shootings have happened since like a decade ago and students still don't understand that bullying can lead to this, they don't understand how much damage they put into someone.

Bullying does not lead to this, if it did, I would have killed more than 33.
You can't reduce it to simple cause and effect, something is wrong with that line of reasoning.

 

[Anohito]

You should note that I didn't agree with the statement, only repeating what was said!

As for blame...why aren't the parents being held responsible? They should have surely known what was going on.

If people strictly think that this was due to teasing and bullying...maybe you should think twice before moving to a foreign land, marrying a local, and having children...then choosing to live in that country long term. I guarantee that your kids will go through this first hand!

I was aware that you said "I'm not sure that I agree with that though." I was providing a specific reason for disagreeing with the statement or at least considering it to be of highly dubious value.

As for the bullying aspect (this is a general observation and not in direct response to CC1), it is true, as far as it goes, that bullying does not justify murder in response, but bullying someone with psychological problems certainly does not help the situation. Indeed, it ought to be obvious that it is like playing with fire.

 

[Sarapva]

Cho needed help, cause he was different, and other people would abuse him?
Like what kind of help could professionals have offered? You know, counselors and psychiatrists are pretty incompetent. They can "treat" you, but they can't "cure" you. After intervention, social injustices won't go away, and the problems are still there.

I think Cho is an example of something that we in this country (and I don't know how it is in other countries) need to learn to deal with properly. Counselors have helped lots of people - they aren't all incompetent. Unfortunately there are too many instances of children being treated badly - like an animal that is mistreated, they become angry and hostile, and understandably so. I don't think bullying by your peers, just by itself, could drive a person to murder, but with constant mistreatment from the time someone is a child and into adolescence, with no one stepping in to show them that there are caring people in the world who actually care about them, a person could understandably think no one is on their side and that the world is a hostile place, with no hope that there could be anything good in it for them.

 

[Sukotto]

A friend has an online zine, this issue
on violence.

One item I've found interesting so far is:
parents having to work, work, work,
in the economy that is doing oh, so well,
skyrocketing even (if just some certain #s-blockmarket are looked at)
to stay ahead
and make things grand for the small sliver wealthy,
and where's
the time for the kids.
Family Values? Thanks a lot corporate america.
When overtime is mandatory.
Or regular time is underpaid.
Maybe college graduates won't have such problems?
not. They do too.

http://flag.blackened.net/ati/freespeech/americanviolence/

 

[Elizabeth]

As for the bullying aspect (this is a general observation and not in direct response to CC1), it is true, as far as it goes, that bullying does not justify murder in response, but bullying someone with psychological problems certainly does not help the situation. Indeed, it ought to be obvious that it is like playing with fire.

I thought this story on CNN was interesting. A bullied and abused kid with hair trigger instinct control that didn't "intend" to kill anyone but went to school with guns to "get someone's attention." The principal tries to 'hug' him, he freaks out. Wham ! Bam ! One thing follows another. Next thing you know a person is dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/LAW/04/21/principal.shooting.ap/index.html

 

[maushan3]

Bullying does not lead to this, if it did, I would have killed more than 33.
You can't reduce it to simple cause and effect, something is wrong with that line of reasoning.

People react different.

Mauricio

 

[Uchite]

What a horrible, senseless tragedy! I am have been watching this story since it happened and following it closely. There are so many unanswered questions:


1. Why did he shoot the first victim and the guy in the dorm? And what was their relationship with him?

2. Why did he choose the engineering building to conduct his massacre? Did something happen there with students or faculty? Was he aspiring to be an engineer but was not accepted into the school of engineering?

3. What was his relationship with his parents like? Was he constantly being compared to his sister and her "successful" career?

4. Who in the world was he talking to on the video? He keeps saying "you, you"... Who does he mean?

5. Why are we not hearing from any of the bullies that bullied him in high school (and possibly at VT)? Where are they and how do they now feel?

6. Why did VT not go into an immediate lockdown when they learned a murder had occured on campus and that a killer was on the loose?

7. Why did the police allow the release of the video tape in the first place? Did NBC seek permission from them first? Or did they go just and air it hoping for ratings?

8. What else is on or said on that video that is not being shown or mentioned about? There has got to be more to it than that. No names? No incidents?

9. Was he on medication? If so, what kind?

10. Why weren't the concerns of his teachers and other students taken seriously?


I make no excuses for what this deranged man did.

I just feel there are a lot of unanswered questions.

It can't be rationalized by saying there needs to be more gun control, more policing, more anti-depressents for people, more border security, more immigration laws and last but not least, more government!

 

[Elizabeth]

People react different.
Mauricio

It isn't only the bullying, obviously. It's that combined with an ongoing history of rejection and alienation, depression or a major mental illness like psychosis, schizophrenia. These people also seem to have a secret fascination with death
and the weaponry to get there (guns, firearms, explosives, etc).

If this profile fits anyone here, please let us know now....

 

[Elizabeth]

Here's the article:
http://www.wpcva.com/articles/2007/04/18/chatham/news/news30.txt
It's mainly about the reaction of VT students from our area, so you might not find it of particular interest.
I was just proud of HMB for covering it.

Thanks for posting. There have been so many school and mass shootings but I still can't believe another one of these happened. If you don't get local reaction, it's very easy to lose sight of the real people that are going to take years to recover. I wonder how everyone is going to react to getting back to class tomorrow ?

 

[Anohito]

Thanks for posting. There have been so many school and mass shootings but I still can't believe another one of these happened. If you don't get local reaction, it's very easy to lose sight of the real people that are going to take years to recover. I wonder how everyone is going to react to getting back to class tomorrow ?

Unfortunately, such killing sprees now seem to be an inevitable part of American culture, not a predominate part, but something that will occur with some regularity. One could argue that such things are an inevitable part of human nature, but the particular form we saw in the Virginia Tech killings seems rather American, for a variety of reasons.

Also unfortunately, the people who need to recover from this event, physically and/or psychologically, will have to deal with those who like to sneer about a "cult of victimhood" and cavalierly say things such as "That's in the past--time to get over it and move on."

 

[Elizabeth]

Unfortunately, such killing sprees now seem to be an inevitable part of American culture, not a predominate part, but something that will occur with some regularity. One could argue that such things are an inevitable part of human nature, but the particular form we saw in the Virginia Tech killings seems rather American, for a variety of reasons.
Also unfortunately, the people who need to recover from this event, physically and/or psychologically, will have to deal with those who like to sneer about a "cult of victimhood" and cavalierly say things such as "That's in the past--time to get over it and move on."

Oh, there's no danger of that in these cases. If anything, the victims are encouraged not to forget both by the media coverage and the continuation of such incidences. Even as school violence overall is down, the strong cultural endorsement of guns makes it almost as easy as possible for killers to carry out their acts on an ever grander scale.

 

[Pachipro]

A few messages from our Founding Fathers, as relevant today as then:

"The Constitution of most of our states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." -Thomas Jefferson

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." - Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the federal Constitution (1787) in Pamphlets to the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." - Luke 22:36 quoting Jesus of Nazareth, from KJV

"They that can give up liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

"To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them..." -George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined...The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might
have a gun." -Patrick Henry

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." - Japanese Admiral Yamamoto, 1941

 

[Elizabeth]

If I lived in a frontier society or a country with a weak military and no other means of defense I'd very likely own and proudly carry a firearm as well.

That doesn't address the question of laws that could prevent tragedies like we've just witnessed. Or at the least, regulations to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Measures which even the National Rifle Association I believe supports...

 

[ArmandV]

If I lived in a frontier society or a country with a weak military and no other means of defense I'd very likely own and proudly carry a firearm as well.

That doesn't address the question of laws that could prevent tragedies like we've just witnessed. Or at the least, regulations to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill. Measures which even the National Rifle Association I believe supports...

Would you mind if we put a sign on your front lawn that read,

"This is a gun-free household"?