Usages of というのは patterns help

Dante12 · 9 Sep 2007

まあそれはともかく、しばらく外国で暮らして戻ってくると、日本というのは本当に標語が好きな国なんだなあと感心する。

外国では標語というのはまず見掛けない。

そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるというのは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。

Well, guys, I am pretty confused by the usages of the to iu no wa patterns here. The usual patterns of the to iu no wa constructions are normally followed by the koto da pattern. But the to iu no wa seems to suggest something else other than explaining.

Therefore my best guess is that all the to iu no wa here is suggesting a general notion as the topic of the sentence. Am I right???

Any help will be greatly appreciated!!!

Mike Cash · 9 Sep 2007

In most of the instances in the example text it seems to be superfluous "throwaway" verbiage.

Functionally largely meaningless yet commonly used (and over-used) expressions and patterns appear in Japanese just as they do in English.

nekocat · 9 Sep 2007

Therefore my best guess is that all the to iu no wa here is suggesting a general notion as the topic of the sentence. Am I right???

You're quite right. You may safely think "というのは" = "は". Rest assured, all というのは is replaceable with は.

I don't think というのは is altogether meaningless and superfluous. It could be used when just using は would be too 断定的 (assertive) or declarative. It could also be used as a sentence filler (as Mike pointed out).

Dante12 · 14 Sep 2007

Thank u so much for this valuable lesson, Mike Cash and nekocat!!!

Thank you so much!! I really appreciate all your help!

nekocat · 14 Sep 2007

没关系。Keep up your good work, Dante!

nhk9 · 15 Sep 2007

nekocat said:
all というのは is replaceable with は.

I'd beg to differ. When used before verbs, you must retain "no", ie "no ha". But then even that the nuance would be differ a bit. One cannot just use "ha" after a verb" directly.

Also, sometimes というのは is irreplaceable. For example, one must use it when trying to define something. There are other forms like "って、ってのは", but they are all other forms of というのは

ie "bon voyage" というのは, 英語の"have a nice trip"にあたります.

(What the French) calls "bon voyage" corresponds to "have a nice trip" in English.

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
I'd beg to differ. When used before verbs, you must retain "no", ie "no ha". But then even that the nuance would be differ a bit. One cannot just use "ha" after a verb" directly.

You can if you are referencing the verb directly. 「する」は動詞です。
You can also substitute a variety of words for the "placeholder" function of の -- 表現、言い方、言葉、など。。

「する」という言い方(言葉。。。）は動詞です。

Also, sometimes というのは is irreplaceable. For example, one must use it when trying to define something. There are other forms like "って、ってのは", but they are all other forms of というのは
ie "bon voyage" というのは, 英語の"have a nice trip"にあたります.
(What the French) calls "bon voyage" corresponds to "have a nice trip" in English.

Either way is fine.

nhk9 · 15 Sep 2007

Elizabeth said:
You can if you are referencing the verb directly. 「する」は動詞です。
You can also substitute a variety of words for the "placeholder" function of の -- 表現、言い方、言葉、など。。

「する」という言い方(言葉。。。）は動詞です。

Either way is fine.

I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that it is not possible in modern Japanese to say "するは" or "「する」は" If you want to define "suru" to somebody who doesn't know, one should use "[suru]toiu no ha"

Also, I don't understand what your last statement exactly is. I was just trying to say that it is possible to replace "toiu no ha" when defining something with something that is derived from "toiu no ha", namely "tte no ha", "tte" etc. But since "no ha" (or "ha")itself is not derived from "toiu no ha", it cannot be used when defining something.

Mike Cash · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
I'd beg to differ.

You seem to have missed the very obvious fact that she was talking about all instances in the examples in the original post and not as a broad generality.

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that it is not possible in modern Japanese to say "するは" or "「する」は" If you want to define "suru" to somebody who doesn't know, one should use "[suru]toiu no ha"

Are you also trying to say you cannot use "to iu kotoba ha" "to iu iikata ha" instead of no?

nhk9 · 15 Sep 2007

Elizabeth said:
Are you also trying to say you cannot use "to iu kotoba ha" "to iu iikata ha" instead of no?

I am sure I wasn't the one who brought up the words kotoba or iikata in this topic. But since you ask, Elizabeth, I think grammatically speaking it is perfectly find to use "to iu iikata ha" etc, but then I think we are talking about grammatical patterns here and not specific phrases. I think "toiu no ha" is a pattern that you'd find in any reasonable grammar book, where as you probably wouldn't find the likes of "to iu kotoba ha" in a grammar book, as they are too specific.

But the discussion about "toiu kotoba ha" is not the main focus here; rather, the more relevant discussion should be about how "toiu no ha" cannot be replaced so generally as some have attempted.

nhk9 · 15 Sep 2007

Mike Cash said:
You seem to have missed the very obvious fact that she was talking about all instances in the examples in the original post and not as a broad generality.

Mr. Cash are you trying to say that

そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるというのは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。

can become:

そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。

??

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
I am sure I wasn't the one who brought up the words kotoba or iikata in this topic. But since you ask, Elizabeth, I think grammatically speaking it is perfectly find to use "to iu iikata ha" etc, but then I think we are talking about grammatical patterns here and not specific phrases. I think "toiu no ha" is a pattern that you'd find in any reasonable grammar book, where as you probably wouldn't find the likes of "to iu kotoba ha" in a grammar book, as they are too specific.
But the discussion about "toiu kotoba ha" is not the main focus here; rather, the more relevant discussion should be about how "toiu no ha" cannot be replaced so generally as some have attempted.

These are examples from my boyfriend and NANGI-san with 「 infinitive 」＋は、が that showed what I was talking about. If you still believe that you need というのは（が）のほうがよい take it up with them. Let the reader decide after looking over and studying these closely whether the initial examples also make sense with は。

「説明してみたいと思う」か、「説明したいと思う」がよいですね。

「申しております」は「私以外のだれか」が」が主語の文です。

一般的に「亡くなる」は人（自分以外）が死ぬことを表現していて、敬語ではありません。敬語では「お亡くなりになる」を使います。

nekocat · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
Mr. Cash are you trying to say that
そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるというのは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。
can become:
そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。
??

This reply proves you're a very keen learner of Japanese, congrats!
This is one of many merits of exchanging ideas in forum. You learn every day, whether teaching or asking.

When I put up the equation, I should have note this caveat:

NOUN というのは = は

In your example sentence, そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になる is not a noun phrase. You have to make it nominalized, hence ...のは.

Lizzy's sentences are examples of "quotational nominative."

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nekocat said:
This reply proves you're a very keen learner of Japanese, congrats!
This is one of many merits of exchanging ideas in forum. You learn every day, whether teaching or asking.

When I put up the equation, I should have note this caveat:

NOUN というのは = は

In your example sentence, そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になる is not a noun phrase. You have to make it nominalized, hence ...のは.

Lizzy's sentences are examples of "quotational nominative."

So this said, it becomes equally readable and grammatical, perhaps even neater or slightly more concise, to set off the 発想 in brackets and think of it as a single idea ??
「そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になる」はあまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。

nekocat · 15 Sep 2007

No, I meant "申しております」 and 「亡くなる」 are both quotational nominatives.

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nekocat said:
No, I meant "申しております」 and 「亡くなる」 are both quotational nominatives.

Yes, I know that was my former example. And I assume from your answer it cannot be expanded or revised to cover longer 'quotations' which make sense in English such as I think that "by doing it that way such and such happens...." is a simplistic, one sided conception.

「そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になる」はあまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。

Mike Cash · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
Mr. Cash are you trying to say that
そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるというのは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。
can become:
そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になるは、あまりにも単純で一面的な発想だと思う。
??

I said nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that you had misinterpreted her post which was obviously limited to the instances at hand as having been meant as a broad generalization on all such uses in Japanese.

Reading what is there instead of making unsupported leaps would be most helpful.

Elizabeth · 15 Sep 2007

nhk9 said:
I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that it is not possible in modern Japanese to say "するは" or "「する」は" If you want to define "suru" to somebody who doesn't know, one should use "[suru]toiu no ha"
Also, I don'tunderstand what your last statement exactly is. I was just trying to say that it is possible to replace "toiu no ha" when defining something with something that is derived from "toiu no ha", namely "tte no ha", "tte" etc. But since "no ha" (or "ha")itself is not derived from "toiu no ha", it cannot be used when defining something.

知ったかぶりをしたら、正しく訳をするには部分的過ぎて無理がありますね。

いつも自分が正しいと言い張る前に、事実を確かめるべきですね。

nhk9 · 16 Sep 2007

Elizabeth said:
知ったかぶりをしたら、正しく訳をするには部分的過ぎて無理がありますね。

いつも自分が正しいと言い張る前に、事実を確かめるべきですね。

他人への個人攻撃は必ずしも自分のいうことを正しくしてくれるっていうわけじゃないんですよ、Elizabethさん。いったい誰がいつも自分が正しいって言い張ったのか分からないが、あなたが私の言おうとしていることを誤解していると言うのは私ですけど。

私は日本語の権威じゃありません。ただ、「おかしいじゃない？」って考えていたことをそのまま述べてただけです。私が必ず正しいとはいったり、他人が間違っているとは言ったりしてなかったし、しようとしていてもなかったんです。もし私からもっと私の言ったことについて説明してほしかったとしたら、お互いに尊敬し合える雰囲気は欠かせないんですよ。そうですよね？

もしあなたには"「というのは」という表現の交換方法について部分的じゃなく、徹底的に解説する能力がありましたら、何なら発表してみませんか。また、あなたの口に出した「事実」をも説明していただければ幸いです。きっと勉強になれると思いますよ。

失礼ですが、どうしても理解できないことがひとつありますが、本当に同じpostに二回返事する必要はあったんですかね。それにずっと英語でのthreadで日本語でなんて。確かに二ヶ国の言葉を自由に使いこなすことは立派なことですね。ただし、言語力を見せびらかす能力なんて日本語を数年以上勉強した者なら誰にだってあるんですけど、誰でもこうやってるっていうわけじゃないんです。何でかというと殆どの人はこの世には自分より日本語がずっと上手い人が山ほどいるということを前もって知ってますから。それはそうとして、あなたの最後の質問に私はもう英語で返事したんですけど、お見逃しなく確かめてみていただけらとおもいます。 (post #11 of this thread)

nekocat said:
This reply proves you're a very keen learner of Japanese, congrats!
This is one of many merits of exchanging ideas in forum. You learn every day, whether teaching or asking.
When I put up the equation, I should have note this caveat:

NOUN というのは = は
In your example sentence, そうすることによって家庭が始めて健全になる is not a noun phrase. You have to make it nominalized, hence ...のは.
Lizzy's sentences are examples of "quotational nominative."

Thanks for this posting, Nekosan. I appreciate your clarification.

Mike Cash said:
I said nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out that you had misinterpreted her post which was obviously limited to the instances at hand as having been meant as a broad generalization on all such uses in Japanese.

Reading what is there instead of making unsupported leaps would be most helpful.

Maybe I (and others) should thank you for your teaching a lesson, as you always do. What Nekosan (perhaps mistakenly) was saying (ie. "all というのは is replaceable with は") did not apply generally, imho, nor did it apply to all the examples in the sentences posted by the OP, since 健全になるは, to my knowledge is not proper modern standard Japanese in the context of the example sentence. I don't know how one can be a spokesperson for Nekosan, but I am thankful that he/she has already clarified his/her stance him/herself, and that is that.

Mike Cash · 16 Sep 2007

Just stopping with the making unsupported leaps would be the best form of thanks in the world.

Dante12 · 18 Sep 2007

Sometimes I really think that standard japanese grammar textbooks are entirely different from the real Japanese language...

Or maybe its because I am learning this language all by myself that I am faced with this kind of difficulty.

However, I am really grateful to all the wonderful people here who has helped me learned this difficult language in their own ways...

皆さん、本当にありがとうございます！！

Elizabeth · 19 Sep 2007

Dante12 said:
Sometimes I really think that standard japanese grammar textbooks are entirely different from the real Japanese language...
Or maybe its because I am learning this language all by myself that I am faced with this kind of difficulty.
However, I am really grateful to all the wonderful people here who has helped me learned this difficult language in their own ways...
皆さん、本当にありがとうございます！！

There was no explanation attached but I read somewhere recently that 「なるのは」while understandable is generally much less natural than 「なるというのは」. At least in this case, it does seem that book is clued into something real.At least in this case, it does seem that book is clued into something real. Follow your text !!!

Usages of というのは patterns help

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