USA the biggest threat to world peace.

[centrajapan]

There you said it. It is not Jews but Zionism. Some Jews are against Zionism. America is a pro Zionist country and they like to throw the played out anti Semite argument which is getting old.

USA likes to label Iran anti Semites.

The Webster's Dictionary defines "anti-Semite" as "One who discriminates against or is hostile to or prejudiced against Jews." Notice that the state of Israel is not mentioned.

Shimon Peres, has compared an Iranian nuclear bomb to a "flying concentration camp."

So why hasn't Iran at least started its holocaust by killing or throwing into concentration camps its own Jews, an estimated 30,000 in number? These are Iranian Jews who have representation in Parliament and who have been free for many years to emigrate to Israel but have chosen not to do so.

Comment, opinion and discussion from the Guardian US | The Guardian

 

[Haruspex]

Although it doesn't mean a thing, but I don't know of an English word, or a word used in English that refers to "Jew Hate", thats why I went ahead and used the word. So basically, I will have to stick to this word, or if you prefer I can use "anti-Jewish", its up to you. Well, I couldn't find a word for the opposite of zionism, so thats the main reason I used it.

Santana, please red through that sentence thoroughly, I wrote peacekeeping at best and occupation at worst, so it matches the opinion of both pro-Israel and contra-Israel sides.

 

[Mars Man]

ﾂ¨
I have talked about since WW2 where as our moderator MarsMan wanted to keep this debate since the year 2000.

Yes, that is correct. The reason being, as I have explained and which you seemingly have brushed aside, as so many others have both on this thread the one regarding trying to find a middle road in the Middle East, that by arguing about what has happened in 50 years ago, is not a matter than can easily have a clear-cut consensus on...especially they way it is being argued here on this thread.

What then transpires is a sandbox squabble which is circular, only ends up drawing out emotional replies, and amounts to little increment in education. Maybe one good, basic reason why the world is relatively no closer to world peace today, in the twenty-first century, is due the scaricity of such educational processes.

Now, it appears that there has been a major drive in energy and words towards the state of affairs in the Middle East. That leads me to wonder about your agenda, centrajapan san. That puts your objective in this thread in a suspecious light. You obviously did not come here with any well-thought out argument based on historical writings and books, and the links which you have provided while (except for the thoughts of Bin Laden which cannot be verified--mean what he claims) dealing with certain matters of the ill effects of some situation, are not about known to be true historical matters.

I suggest, centrajapan, that you now expand your argument...even though the premise is false, and so the argument is false...to the world scene, and give an outline in good format to support your line of reasoning. Let's move out of the sandbox arena, now.

 

[centrajapan]

I disagree very much with your stance Mars-Man. If many people have put great efforts in stabalising the region then I have to say USA is not one of them. USA is making sure that Israel on this very day as I am typing this is ignoring international law and making sure that there woun't be world peace or stability in the region. How on earth can US keep on supporting a nation which practice severe racial discrimination and oppression?

How on earth can you invade a country on fabricated lies and be a direct reason for thousands of children dying and say US is not a threat to peace?

I am calling a spade a spade. Having read books, read news papers watched TV aswell as talking with various people from different countries and from my travel through various places in the world including the Middle East this is my personal conclusion which I have come up with. And I am not alone in this conclusion. In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country. Having read bin Laden's script. Where it says in very clear words in black and white. I do believe Israel is a threat to world peace. I am not supporting bin Laden. But I understand that the US support of Israel fuels hatred. Which again makes my life more insecure in northern Europe.

I have no reasosn to believe that his speech to be fabricated. You can read it on various news sites.

Due to Middle East being an insecure region this again is making the entire world more insecure. I beleieve peace can be achieved but I also believe the biggest obstacle to peace is USA and Israel.

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. Is it not about time that US wakes up and smell the coffee and start to take their share of responsibility?

Famous Americans like Carter is comparing Israel with South Africa. Nelson Mandela is comparing Israel with South Africa, Desmon Tutu another anti apartheid activist is comparing Israel to South Africa. 3 Nobel Peace Prize Winners is comparing Israel to former South AFrica.

Palestine has already agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. They have agreed to give up 80% but this is not good enough for USA and Israel. Palestine has already had free democratic elections but this is not good enough for USA and Israel.

As for USA. Invading a country on fabricated lies is nothing new, rather it is a pattern we see from USA time after time. Supporting ruthless dictators and oppression is also nothing new from USA. This also is a pattern. I have tried to focus from the year 2000 only but if we focus from say the 1950s it is not difficult to find a pattern.

 

[centrajapan]

Sem·ite (smt)
n.
1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible A descendant of Shem.

People who speak Arabic are Semites.

Zionism is a colonial ideology in large parts of the world people define Zionism as racism however some countries like USA seem to embrace that ideology.

Zionism is a new ideology only just over 100 years old. I find it baffling that Americans here say wel the " Jews" were there first. I wonder where in the Bible does it say the Jews from Europe had a right to ethnic cleanse the land of its native inhabitants simply because they were not Jewish? That to me is an outrageous statement.

 

[Goldiegirl]

Why exactly do you even care centrajapan? I am curious on that. Are you worried that the USA will invade Norway? I don't think that is likely as we don't get too many Norwegian terrorists here. If you want to know the real threat to world peace, think of the country that has the most mouths to feed and needs the lions share of the earths precious resources. Keep that thought in mind.

 

[centrajapan]

Why exactly do you even care centrajapan?

Why are you so cynical?

If you want to know the real threat to world peace, think of the country that has the most mouths to feed and needs the lions share of the earths precious resources. Keep that thought in mind.

Could you be more specific?

 

[Mars Man]

There would be no doubt at all that in your unwillingness to broaden your horizons on just what world peace would mean, you are at disagreement in your stance towards the bigger picture which I am focusing on--the one which the title of this thread, at face value, had insinuated, but yet which was obviously not the real motive in starting the thread.

Your actions have belied your premise and your intentions.

In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country.

And now, you have contradicted yourself. I would think that you'd have to give deeper consideration to many points. For example, the likelihood that Bin Laden had actually made that speech is not the question, but rather the accuracy of what he had claimed, you see--he had an agenda as well as the general USA government or the general Isarael government, the general Afaganistan government (at that time), and so forth and so on. A second and third neutral opinion from non-involved scholarship would be good thing to pursue.

Again, a poll of the masses in the EU doesn't amount to anything unless further data is presented so as to be able to filter for bias in methodolgy, and even then, what the masses feel, or even think, does not necessarily reflect careful thought, analysis, or knowledge of all knowable facts. In otherwords, it has little weight until it can be shown to have such.

centrajapan, you are expousing a very narrow scope of vision here, and again, are harping on a matter that is not as important a matter as that of the nature of the animal--the human being. For all the ills and faults that the general USA government has (and I would never try to deny that it does have those things) it is clear that (if you were to apply the study of history [total history]) the animal is capable of such. This is the core fault...if one wishes to see it as a fault. It is because your premise is false and your presentation is one-sided, that the whole of your argument is moot.

Now, why don't we move to the world scene...if, in fact, you had originally been intent on the issue of world peace.

 

[Hezam]

I disagree very much with your stance Mars-Man. If many people have put great efforts in stabalising the region then I have to say USA is not one of them. USA is making sure that Israel on this very day as I am typing this is ignoring international law and making sure that there woun't be world peace or stability in the region. How on earth can US keep on supporting a nation which practice severe racial discrimination and oppression?

How on earth can you invade a country on fabricated lies and be a direct reason for thousands of children dying and say US is not a threat to peace?

I am calling a spade a spade. Having read books, read news papers watched TV aswell as talking with various people from different countries and from my travel through various places in the world including the Middle East this is my personal conclusion which I have come up with. And I am not alone in this conclusion. In an EU poll more EU citizens voted Israel as the country whcih was the biggest threat to world peace than any other country. Having read bin Laden's script. Where it says in very clear words in black and white. I do believe Israel is a threat to world peace. I am not supporting bin Laden. But I understand that the US support of Israel fuels hatred. Which again makes my life more insecure in northern Europe.

I have no reasosn to believe that his speech to be fabricated. You can read it on various news sites.

Due to Middle East being an insecure region this again is making the entire world more insecure. I beleieve peace can be achieved but I also believe the biggest obstacle to peace is USA and Israel.

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. Is it not about time that US wakes up and smell the coffee and start to take their share of responsibility?

Famous Americans like Carter is comparing Israel with South Africa. Nelson Mandela is comparing Israel with South Africa, Desmon Tutu another anti apartheid activist is comparing Israel to South Africa. 3 Nobel Peace Prize Winners is comparing Israel to former South AFrica.

Palestine has already agreed to make a state of the remainding 20% of historic Palestine. They have agreed to give up 80% but this is not good enough for USA and Israel. Palestine has already had free democratic elections but this is not good enough for USA and Israel.

As for USA. Invading a country on fabricated lies is nothing new, rather it is a pattern we see from USA time after time. Supporting ruthless dictators and oppression is also nothing new from USA. This also is a pattern. I have tried to focus from the year 2000 only but if we focus from say the 1950s it is not difficult to find a pattern.

these are facts

If we said the facts , is it wrong ? should we stay silent ? who will hear our sounds ?

who will care about us ? how can we live in peace with a country wich fight us ?

what can we do to return our rights ?

 

[Hezam]

I think if it ( Israel the biggest threat to world peace ) it will be right ..

 

[centrajapan]

Maybe it is you who is unwilling to broaden your horisons Mars Man. Your unwillingness to see the greater picture. Your unwillingness to see that US is a part of the problem not a part of the solution. 60 years of conflict in the region has resulted in people getting killed in New York City. Maybe it is you who have a hard time coming to terms that the US governments policy is fueling lots of anger and hatred.

From reading bin Laden's transcript it seems as if Bin Laden attacked New York because of US policy in Israel. Because bin Laden attacked New York the world climate became worse as a whole.

If it was not for September 11. US would not have invaded Afghanistan. If it was not for September 11 US would not have invaded Iraq. That is a conclusion I have come up with. Because of September 11 US waged wars on 2 countries. Or do you perhaps believe that US would have waged war without Septmeber 11?

Israel being the home of 3 major religions of the world is ofcource going to have tremendous impact throughout the world. If there is not peace in Israel it will be harder to have peace else where. The war on terror is a good example of that.

If we want to have world peace then a good place to start is at the core. Namely Israel-Palestine. If we look at why Israel-Palestine is fighting is because 60 years ago Jews from Europe ethnic cleansed Palestine, took away their land and since then have been denying the Palestinians self determination.


Thank you for the good feed back Carlos.

 

[Mars Man]

We must keep in mind that a lot of people out there claim a lot of things as facts, and yet cannot give fully valid evidence to support those matters to the degree that they are said to be.

If we were to say that something were a fact, we'd have to be clear with the supporting evidence for that, and be able to answer to all rebuttals against the elements and particles of that evidence. False in one, false in all is the maxim that is exercised. I encourage such critical thinking.

Maybe it is you who is unwilling to broaden your horisons Mars Man. Your unwillingness to see the greater picture.

Which is broader, centrajapan san, the past 60 years or the past 3 million years flowing on into the next 5 billion?

Which would you consider the bigger picture, an area of land as it stands at a snapshot-like, single frame in time, or that area of land as it flows through the film of continuum?

Which have you been educated to understand as being the most material, the constituents of a single general government within a narrow time splice, or the constituents of the substance, build, and drive of the species which disallows material discernment between any single general government within a narrow time splice from any other single general government within any other narrow time splice?

 

[Haruspex]

While I agree that the USA waged those two wars mainly because of the WTC events, I'd like to add that the US had to retaliate to show that "NO, You can't just murder our people!". It is a barbaric method, but for the US' status it was necessary.

 

[Hezam]

but for the US' status it was necessary.

Aha ...for the US' status ..!!!!

you mean the other countries and peoples are not as America ( the greatest ) !!

i understood it ...( the amour-propre )...

 

[scorpion da black]

i agree with centra japan.
he actually did the job for me explaining.

 

[Haruspex]

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)

 

[scorpion da black]

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)

this is the kind of atitude we hate and Bush has.
if some one hits me i would hit only him...why hit innocent people who has nothing to do with it?

 

[Haruspex]

So my classmates learn not to throw bricks at me.

 

[scorpion da black]

So my classmates learn not to throw bricks at me.

so you will invade two or three countries to set and example to other countries not to throw planes at your buildings ??
and who cares for the 750 000 civilians dead in iraq....

scary philosophy again

 

[Goldiegirl]

The the USA bombed the wrong country. I believe most of the terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia...and isn't Bin Laden Saudi?

 

[Mars Man]

I am dismayed at the evidence here within this thread showing most clearly that so many of those who post here are not willing to think through things more carefully and deeply. This may indeed, after all, be the very reason for so much unproductivity and negative-outcome courses of action taken by so many parties and groups throughout the world, throughout history. Good grief !

Now please think about this carefully before responding ! If the title of this thread had been 'Destructive, Unproductive, and Negative-outcome Actions Taken by the General USA Government' then I would be right there with you guys pointing out some of the ills of the American government at large. I would be arguing for a change too!

If the title of this thread had been something like, 'The General USA Government's Involvement In Middle Eastern Instability' I'd be right there condeming a number of actions and postitions taken by the general USA government.

But you see, people, this thread's premise, one which is most incorrect and inaccurate, is, '[The] USA Is the Biggest Threat To World Peace.' Think about just what that is saying there, for a moment...I mean, really...think about it!

One, it is saying that the world is in a state of peace--obviously false if you go by my definition which is an elaboration of the general definition of peace.

Two, it is saying that it is the USA which is threating that peace--which is false firstly because the 'peace' element is false, and secondly because it is only a surface attitude that does not give any consideration at all for what it means to be homo sapien.

According to this, most of this thread has been somewhat off-topic. We are not posting on a thread about the Middle East problem.

 

[Mycernius]

The the USA bombed the wrong country. I believe most of the terrorists of 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia...and isn't Bin Laden Saudi?

Quite correct in that, but Saudi Arabia is a big trading partner with the US and the Bin Laden Family are business friends with the Bush family. Face it the war in Afghanistan and Iraq are all about money and power.

Lets put it like this. If I were America in a school class, and someone threw a half brick at me from behind, i'd be so pissed that i'd beat everyone behind me up to get the one who threw a brick at me (its a brick after all, it can seriously harm me)

Why not look for the person with brick dust on their hands first? Doing as you said would just foster a general feeling of hatred and resentment of the rest of the class. It is not an excuse for the US to act like the school bully.

 

[scorpion da black]

i am afraid people will start insulting each other untill this thread is also locked...
i agree with mars man....different ideas are welcomed, but keep it polite.

 

[Haruspex]

It could be kept polite. People just need to accept that the selfishness in mens heart can not be purged, and its pointless to try. There is no right or wrong, there are motives. Everything happens for a reason, and for the best of a certain group. If you can accept politics as facts, you've made your peace with it.
Take a famous quote from Jesus Christ, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.". Now lets turn it all upside down.
"Expect others to do unto you as you would do unto them (if you had the power they posess)."
Voila, you have the solution there.

 

[scorpion da black]

well you have a point there..every one see right and wrong from his own view.

and that happens in all matters.

i see the existance of israel as wrong...you might see it as normal..

there is no definition for right and wrong...there is only point of views, that might grow fierce and reach insults....

guess this way, cultural colision is inevitable....and war is as well.
no one can convince the other so why not erase the other from the face of the earth...

again sad philosophy