Transitive/Intransitive and Passive

[E-Arkham]

今日は、皆さん。 問がです。

The Breen dictionary automagically conjugates verbs, with the disclaimer that not all conjugations would make sense or be used. Since the rules for passive/active verbs as well as intransitive/transitive are quite different than in English, is there a good way to tell when a conjugation can't or shouldn't be used?

For example, in English: "I dropped the ball" (active, transitive) as opposed to "the ball dropped" (passive, intransitive).

日本語で： 私は鞠（まり）を落（お）ちた。
...so I'd guess that intransitive would just be passive? 鞠が落ちされる。 ?

But I'm seeing a lot of references (Transitive and Intransitive Verbs - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide) to conjugating transitive/intransitive specifically, but doesn't seem to related to passive conjugation. For example, the Tae Kim site notes that drop is 落とす and I don't understand what he's doing to get these different forms.

Um... 助けおねがいします？ <G>

ありがとう。

Kep

 

[Damicci]

Crap, I always hated trans and intrans
In order to change a verb from its Transitive form to an intransitive form is completely dependent on the verb ending. This is something that has to be remembered there are no special tricks really to remembering these except practice that i know of. Just study study study, you will find that some have similar changes while others will make you say "what the hell"

Good luck!

 

[Buntaro]

Do not confuse intransitive and passive. They are different ideas.

Transitive means it takes a direct object. Intransitive means no direct object.

"I dropped the ball," where ball is the object of the verb drop.

"The ball dropped," where the verb drop takes no object.

Passive and active are completely different. Simply take an active verb, reverse it, and you have passive.

"The Fighters beat the Giants." (active)
The Giants were beaten by the Fighters." (passive)

"The ball dropped." (active and intransitive)

"The ball was dropped." (passive and transitive)

 

[Damicci]

Good point Buntaro.
I was not sure if he was just asking about passive or how the conjugation was formed for intransitive verbs.

 

[E-Arkham]

Sorry, ironically I didn't express myself quite accurately in English.

I understand that intransitive/transitive has to do with taking a direct object, but in English many verbs also flop intransitive/transitive status when switching to passive. There's a correlation in a lot of cases. But you're right... I'm probably not making the distinction between the two correctly. When I finish posting this, I'll review the English rules.

"The Fighters beat the Giants." (active)
The Giants were beaten by the Fighters." (passive)

In this case, the second is still intransitive, since Fighters becomes an indirect object rather than a direct object, no? This may be part of my mistake.

Alright, let me think for a second.

I want to express a concept, "ball dropped." 鞠が落ちされる。 Passive tense, the ball is the subject. Since it's also an intransitive use, would I have to use an intransitive conjugation of the verb 落ちる or is the passive use fine here with the proper particle?

Likewise... "dropped a ball." 鞠を落ちた。 (actually, above, guess the passive should be: 落ちされた since I'm also past tense, but you get the idea). Not passive, so do I need to be sure I'm using a transitive form of the verb?

I was not sure if he was just asking about passive or how the conjugation was formed for intransitive verbs.

A little of both, actually. Heh.

In what situation would I be using the transitive/intransitive conjugation as opposed to just using passive? Is it even accurate to use the passive in this way?

If so, I'd rather skip transitive/intransitive for now until all other conjugations are natural for me and revisit later, but I don't want to learn a misuse of the passive meanwhile.

ありがとうございます。

Kep

 

[Damicci]

Passive is would be used for normal situations.
i.e. What did you do today?
I went to the mall. Later I had dinner with my parents.
Compared to:
What happened to the vase!?
The vase fell over. <--intransitive sentence.
No one knows why or how or who did what so it's assumed there is no active agent that caused the vase to fall. It just fell on it's own.

As far as the examples given it's hard to compare them in english. because the verb useage is different. In japanese you would use the intransitive form of a verb to express the action done with out a direct object. i.e. The vase fell.
So it probably depends on what you are talking about or what the question is in Japanese that determines what for of the verb you use.

 

[E-Arkham]

I think I found something that explains it quite well. Unfortunately, the site is actually gone, so I had to read it on the google cache.

[EDIT] Removed the web snippet since a functional version of the site was provided so kindly by Kuzzyさん. Here: Japanese verbs, part 2 [End of EDIT]

This made things a lot clearer for me. Do the general JREF forum-goers feel this is accurate information?

ありがとう！

Kep

 

[Kuzzy]

Just FYI, the site moved. Here is a link to what you posted:

http://kimallen.sheepdogdesign.net/Japanese/verbs2.html

 

[Elizabeth]

Likewise... "dropped a ball." 鞠を落ちた。 (actually, above, guess the passive should be: 落ちされた since I'm also past tense, but you get the idea). Not passive, so do I need to be sure I'm using a transitive form of the verb?

The ball was dropped (passive form of 落とす) is ボールが（を）落とされた。
The ball fell (from the intrans. 落ちる） is ボールが落ちた。

Apologies if anyone already figured this out.

 

[E-Arkham]

The Breen dictionary doesn't distinguish between transitive and intransitive, and not all of the verbs have examples. Is there a way to tell the difference?

I'm hoping for some sort of conceptual level difference (if I can just go from the concept of "a ball fell/dropped" directly to the Japanese "鞠が落ちた" rather than from concept to English to Japanese, things "click" faster).

Wish I'd kept the passive discussion separate from the trans/intrans. Heh.

ありがとう、みんなさん。

Kep

 

[Elizabeth]

The Breen dictionary doesn't distinguish between transitive and intransitive, and not all of the verbs have examples. Is there a way to tell the difference?

I'm hoping for some sort of conceptual level difference (if I can just go from the concept of "a ball fell/dropped" directly to the Japanese "鞠が落ちた" rather than from concept to English to Japanese, things "click" faster).

Wish I'd kept the passive discussion seperate from the trans/intrans. Heh.

ありがとう、みんなさん。

Kep

It's similar to any other conjugation. There are around 30 very common verbs that share the same root but with rules for converting to the transitive-intransitive form depending on the class. There are 2-3 other groupings plus some irregular forms, but the ones listed below should be remembered first.

"Eru" ending forms (trans) --> "aru" (intran)
(Ageru/agaru ; atsumeru/atsumaru ; hajimeru/hajimaru ; sageru/sagaru ;
shimeru/shimaru ; tomeru/tomaru...)

"Eru" (trans) --> "u" (intran)
(akeru/aku ; tsukeru/tsuku)

"U" (trans) --> "eru" (intran)
(waru/wareru ; nuku/nukeru)

"Su" (trans) --> "Reru" (intran)
(kowasu/kowareru ; kakasu/kakureru ; taosu/taoreru)

"Su" (trans) --> "ru" (intran)
(Naosu/naoru ; mawasu/mawaru ; kaesu/kaeru ; toosu/tooru)

"Osu" (trans) --> "iru" (intran)
(okosu/okiru ; orosu/oriru ; otosu/ochiru)

Also please use ボール rather than "鞠." It is a much more natural way of referring to the category of 'ball' used in a game or sport (anything in Jim Breen without example sentences should be freely ignored for the purpose of everyday Japanese).

 

[E-Arkham]

ありがとう、elizabethさん。

I had a lot of problems with verb conjugation until it was explained with ひらがな because it seemed really unnatural breaking up syllables. If you know of a reference that uses ひらがな, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, let me see if I have this correct from your examples:

-げ and -め(trans) turn to -が and -ま(intrans).

-ける(trans) becomes -く(intrans).

-く(trans) becomes -ける(intrans).

The -す endings are trickier.

A -す by itself becomes -る:

直す --> 直る、回す --> 回る、返す --> 返る、通す --> 通る

...but... not in the case of 壊す and 倒す which both go to -れる. Then 欠かす has two hiragana, so is there a rule that -かす becomes -れる? Not enough examples to really guess.

-こす(trans) becomes -きる(intrans), -ろす becomes りる, -and -とす becomes -ちる.

Alrighty then! How badly did I mangle that up?

Also please use ボール rather than "鞠." It is a much more natural way of referring to the category of 'ball' used in a game or sport

Actually, I was thinking of that scene in "Minority Report" where the red ball drops off the end of the track... so not really a game or sports ball. Plus I want to try to use kanji whenever possible to improve my vocabulary.

Is 球 fine for everyday use?

ありがとうございます! I think I may be close to a "click" point with all of this.

Kep

PS - I'm about to head out of town, so probably won't be able to respond until Mondayish. Thanks again.

 

[E-Arkham]

Strange, I'm unable to edit my previous post. Anyway, I meant:

-げる and -める(trans) turn to -がる and -まる(intrans) respectively.

And I wanted to clarify on the カタカナ vs 漢字 thing since I think I may have inadvertently come across as rude: when I encounter a カタカナ loanword, I have a good chance of understanding what it is if only from sounding it out. Not so for 漢字. I can do カタカナ on the fly, so I want to increase my working knowledge of 漢字 and will just pick up the loanwords from context/usage. Hence the preference.

Still hoping for confirmation on my guesswork and further examples of -す ending trans/intrans changes for study.

有り難う御座います。
Kep

 

[nice gaijin]

While I applaud your diligence in wanting to understand kanji better, there are many foreign loan words (外来語) that, despite having a suitable equivalent in Japanese, are overwhelmingly used by native speakers. There are other words and phrases still that, despite having kanji, are almost never used with kanji. ありがとうございます is one of these phrases; I've never seen anyone (any level of fluency) use kanji with that phrase, and it actually makes it more difficult to read.

 

[Mike Cash]

There are other words and phrases still that, despite having kanji, are almost never used with kanji. ありがとうございます is one of these phrases; I've never seen anyone (any level of fluency) use kanji with that phrase, and it actually makes it more difficult to read.

I've seen it in kanji more times than I could possibly begin to count.

 

[Elizabeth]

Strange, I'm unable to edit my previous post. Anyway, I meant:
-げる and -める(trans) turn to -がる and -まる(intrans) respectively.
And I wanted to clarify on the カタカナ vs 漢字 thing since I think I may have inadvertently come across as rude: when I encounter a カタカナ loanword, I have a good chance of understanding what it is if only from sounding it out. Not so for 漢字. I can do カタカナ on the fly, so I want to increase my working knowledge of 漢字 and will just pick up the loanwords from context/usage. Hence the preference.
Still hoping for confirmation on my guesswork and further examples of -す ending trans/intrans changes for study.
有り難う御座います。
Kep

I'll post 15-20 more common pairs later -- and let you categorize them as you will. Takusan ganbatte ne. :=-)
As for the kanji thing, I understood your point fine the first time and didn't take it rudely at all. 球 or even tama, is better than mari in my opinion.

 

[Mike Cash]

If I had 5 yen for every time I have used a native Japanese term and then heard my Japanese coworkers using gairaigo for the exact same thing, I could retire already. Don't sweat this sort of thing, OP. You'll be running into it for precisely as long as you use Japanese, however long that may be.

 

[Elizabeth]

不自然な感じを与えるのならやはり、使い方を間 違っています。 (especially in speaking).

 

[Elizabeth]

Strange, I'm unable to edit my previous post. Anyway, I meant:

No, they are not editable after, I believe, 24 hours.

Still hoping for confirmation on my guesswork and further examples of -窶堋ｷ ending trans/intrans changes for study.

There may be more comprehensive lists out and around somewhere....but
the following was all I could muster up this morning :--)

kakeru/kakaru..
machigaeru/machigau
kaeru/kawaru
nakusu/nakuneru
kirasu/kureru
nekasu/neru
nokosu/nokoru
nekusu/nekunaru
kowasu/kowareru
kesu/kieru
kawakasu/kawaku
ugokasu/ugoku
ireru/hairu
miru/mieru
noseru/noru
fuyasu/fueru
hiyasu/hieru
kirasu/kireru
tatsu/tateru
nerabu/neraberu
Owaru is the only intransitive verb that can also have a true direct object.
Even in that case, though, oeru is much more common and less restricted in usage, in modern Japanese.

 

[E-Arkham]

You'll be running into it for precisely as long as you use Japanese, however long that may be.

I'm not at all surprised. For me, it's more about learning method; trying to strengthen my weaknesses, etc.

For "however long that may be," I hope the rest of my life. Depends on how often I get to use it, but with my interests and the availability of reading material online, there's no excuse not to use it everyday. Isn't it odd that someone might learn a language, then simply lose interest in it? Ah, I'm just musing on a tangent now.

不自然な感じを与えるのならやはり、使い方を間 違っています。 (especially in speaking).

外来語用いるのは？ それでも自他？

Is 自他（じた） correct for referring to transitive/intransitive? I had to look it up on Breen, and picked the common usage over more specific terms. Heh. I'm learning.

There may be more comprehensive lists out and around somewhere....but the following was all I could muster up this morning

私の「google-fu」良いでわない。 ちょっと、まだ見つけようとする、でもこれがとても有用です。

有り難う、みんなさん。

Kep

 

[Elizabeth]

I'm not at all surprised. For me, it's more about learning method; trying to strengthen my weaknesses, etc.
For "however long that may be," I hope the rest of my life. Depends on how often I get to use it, but with my interests and the availability of reading material online, there's no excuse not to use it everyday. Isn't it odd that someone might learn a language, then simply lose interest in it? Ah, I'm just musing on a tangent now.
外来語用いるのは？ それでも自他？

日常会話で、難しくしたことによってわからなくなった文章という問題ですね。

 

[Glenn]

Here is a long list of transitive/intransitive pairs with a rule for knowing which is which (although you probably have to know both verbs to know for sure...).

 

[bentenmusume]

Dunno if the OP is still reading this, but I just thought I'd point out a few things:

外来語用いるのは？

「用いる」 is extremely formal/written-style. You may want to stick with 「使う」 for "use."

私の「google-fu」良いでわない。

Should be 良くない. (And FYI, the "wa" of "de wa nai" is written は, not わ)
(Also, if you were writing this for a Japanese audience, the idiom you use here would likely be incomprehensible and you'd have to find another way of expressing this, but I'm sure you already know that.)

ちょっと、まだ見つけようとする

I think 探してみる would work better here than 見つけようとする.

でもこれがとても有用です。

The expression 「役に立ちます」 is a more common way to convey the idea of "useful."
Also, to get picky, using 「が」 here gives the sentence an odd emphasis. (THIS is what will be really useful.)

みんなさん

皆さん（みなさん）, not みんなさん。
みんな(without さん) is also possible, but too casual here.
Fixing the above won't make your Japanese sentences 100% natural, but it's a start.

As always, I welcome corrections if any of the above is wrong/misleading.