Question The Usage of 〜を降りる？

milindindia · 2 Mar 2020

I understand how 'バスから降りる' works.
But how do you explain the usage of 'バスを降りる', '電車を降りる' etc.? Why can 'を' particle be used here?

Isn't the 'を' particle used to denote the direct object of a transitive verb? 'Bus' isn't the direct object here, is it. "Get down 'from' the bus"

降りる or 下りる is an intransitive verb, right?

Reference:
1. Verb-related particles - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide
2.

Transitive and Intransitive Verbs - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide

Toritoribe · 2 Mar 2020

を is not used only with transitive verbs. を indicates the departure point of movement when used with intransitive verbs of movement.
e.g.
故郷を離れる
家を出る
大学を出る

Also, を indicates the location of movement.
e.g.
廊下を歩く
道路を走る
坂道を登る
橋を渡る
空を飛ぶ

milindindia · 3 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
を is not used only with transitive verbs. を indicates the departure point of movement when used with intransitive verbs of movement.
e.g.
故郷を離れる
家を出る
大学を出る

Also, を indicates the location of movement.
e.g.
廊下を歩く
道路を走る
坂道を登る
橋を渡る
空を飛ぶ

I see thank you for explaining. I don't know all the Kanji and verbs but since I recognized a few, I could read a few examples in each of the two cases you explained. I understand what you said.
I would appreciate if you told the meanings too though, but thanks.

Are there any other uses of を particle that I should know about?

Toritoribe · 3 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
I don't know all the Kanji and verbs but since I recognized a few, I could read a few examples in each of the two cases you explained. I understand what you said.
I would appreciate if you told the meanings too though, but thanks

Dictionary is your friend. The given examples are quite simple, and you already know the functions of を, the nouns preceding it, and verbs used there, so even if there are kanji you don't know there, you can look up those words in your dictionary, and can get the correct meaning by yourself relatively easily, I believe.

milindindia said:
Are there any other uses of を particle that I should know about?

を indicates the causee in a causative sentence.
e.g.
生徒を廊下に立たせた。
部下を取引先に行かせた。

milindindia · 3 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
を indicates the causee in a causative sentence.
e.g.
生徒を廊下に立たせた。
部下を取引先に行かせた。

せいとをろうかにたたせた。
The student(s) was(were) made to stand in the hallway.

Is it wrong if I say,
先生には生徒が廊下に立たせた。
？

Similarly,
ぶかをとりひきさきにいかせた。
The subordinate was made to go/ sent by the client.

Can I again say something like,
部下が取引先には行かせた。
or 部下が取引先に行かせた。
？

Toritoribe · 3 Mar 2020

When the verb is intransitive, the basic structure of a causative sentence is causer が causee を～させる "causer makes/lets causee do". The subject/causer is indicated by が, and it's just omitted in my examples.

On the other hand, your translations are "causee is made/let to do (by causer)". This is causative passive, not causative. Thus, your translations are wrong.

milindindia · 3 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
The basic structure of a causative sentence is causer が causee を～させる "causer makes/lets causee do". The subject/causer is indicated by が, and it's just omitted in my examples.

On the other hand, your translations are "causee is made/let to do (by causer)". This is causative passive, not causative. Thus, your translations are wrong.

Oh, I understand now. Thank you.

Btw, "causer が causee を～させる" is basically making use of the direct object application of the を particle, so this isn't really very different, is it?

先生は生徒を廊下に立たせた。
The teacher made the students stand in the hallway.

部下を取引先に行かせた。
(Somebody) made the subordinate go to the client.

So basically, students and subordinate are direct objects here, aren't they?
I hope, I am understanding right.

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

The interpretation as "the object of the causative form" can't explain why に can be used to indicate the causee. Even for transitive verbs, に is preferred when を is used for the location or the departure point of the movement.

〇選手に長い距離を走らせた。
×選手を長い距離を走らせた。

milindindia · 4 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
The interpretation as "the object of the causative form" can't explain why に can be used to indicate the causee. Even for transitive verbs, に is preferred when を is used for the location or the departure point of the movement.

〇選手に長い距離を走らせた。
×選手を長い距離を走らせた。

Does that mean, these also works?
・先生は生徒に廊下に立たせた。
・部下に取引先に行かせた。

How do you tell when to use に and when to use を for the causee of the causative verb?

Buntaro · 4 Mar 2020

I just happened to see this usage today of を in a video about a train:

"砂の上を走ると、ゴリゴリ音がします。"
"As the train rides over tracks covered with sand, you hear a scraping or scratching sound."

紀勢本線105系空転の一部始終
at 5:19

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
How do you tell when to use に and when to use を for the causee of the causative verb?

For transitive verbs, に is used.
e.g.
子供にお菓子を食べさせた。
生徒に絵を描かせた。

For the causee's non-volitional action of intransitive verbs, を is used.
e.g.
犯人は被害者を無理やり溺れさせた。
コメディアンが観客を笑わせた。

milindindia said:
先生は生徒に廊下に立たせた。

The action 立たせる is mostly done for punishment, i.e., it's not the student's volitional action. Therefore を is used even when 廊下に is not there.

milindindia said:
部下に取引先に行かせた。

Acceptable, but 部下を is preferred for the same reason as 選手を長い距離を走らせた is not used.

milindindia · 4 Mar 2020

Toritoribe said:
For transitive verbs, に is used.
e.g.
子供にお菓子を食べさせた。
生徒に絵を描かせた。

For the causee's non-volitional action of intransitive verbs, を is used.
e.g.
犯人は被害者を無理やり溺れさせた。
コメディアンが観客を笑わせた。

The action 立たせる is mostly done for punishment, i.e., it's not the student's volitional action. Therefore を is used even when 廊下に is not there.

Acceptable, but 部下を is preferred for the same reason as 選手を長い距離を走らせた is not used.

Thank you so much. This made so much sense. I'd better note this stuff down in my notebook.

Can you state some natural examples of using に particle for causee's volitional action in case of intransitive verbs?

And in case of transitive verbs, even if it's non-volitional and forced, you won't use を, right? Is there way to express that nuance there?
This is incorrect, 子供を食べさせた。?

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
Can you state some natural examples of using に particle for causee's volitional action in case of intransitive verbs?

公園で、子供たちに自由に遊ばせた。

milindindia said:
And in case of transitive verbs, even if it's non-volitional and forced, you won't use を, right?

Right.

milindindia said:
Is there way to express that nuance there?

You can make clear the forced nuance by adding an adverb 無理やり, for instance.

milindindia said:
This is incorrect, 子供を食べさせた。?

That's valid when 食べさせる means "to provide for/support" rather than "to make/let eat something". Note that it also can mean "the subject lets someone/something eat their child/children", i.e., "the subject offers their child/children for sacrifice to a monster or something".

Buntaro · 4 Mar 2020

milindindia said:
Isn't the 'を' particle used to denote the direct object of a transitive verb?

Hey Milindindia,

Continuing on with the railroad theme, here are examples with を and で that are similar to their English counterparts:

ride the rails; 線路を走る

ride on the rails; 線路で走る

Toritoribe · 4 Mar 2020

線路で走る can be valid only when で indicates the means. Learners need to keep in mind that this is barely understandable, but it's a very rare expression. In fact, I can find the only one example where this expression is used in a corpus.

フランスから持ち帰った模型の電気機関車を線路で走らせては、子供のように飽きることなく、延々とこれにうち狂じていたものである。

It can be considered that this is valid because it's causative and therefore を is already used to indicate the causee. Anyway, I don't recommend using the expression 線路で走る at least as a common expression.

As I wrote, 走る is an intransitive verb even though it's used with を, and it has nothing to do with whether the equivalent English verb is transitive or intransitive.

milindindia · 5 Mar 2020

Buntaro said:
Hey Milindindia,

Continuing on with the railroad theme, here are examples with を and で that are similar to their English counterparts:

ride the rails; 線路を走る

ride on the rails; 線路で走る

Yes, had Toritoribe San not already answered, I would have been confused why で could work in this phrase. Japanese choice of prepositions varies greatly from English. I rather find translating and finding parallels in Japanese with Indian languages easier, my mother tongue Bengali for instance.

Toritoribe said:
線路で走る can be valid only when で indicates the means. Learners need to keep in mind that this is barely understandable, but it's a very rare expression. In fact, I can find the only one example where this expression is used in a corpus.

フランスから持ち帰った模型の電気機関車を線路で走らせては、子供のように飽きることなく、延々とこれにうち狂じていたものである。

It can be considered that this is valid because it's causative and therefore を is already used to indicate the causee. Anyway, I don't recommend using the expression 線路で走る at least as a common expression.

As I wrote, 走る is an intransitive verb even though it's used with を, and it has nothing to do with whether the equivalent English verb is transitive or intransitive.

Thank you so much for all the explanation.

Question The Usage of 〜を降りる？

milindindia

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

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Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

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Buntaro

運動不足

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

後輩

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

Buntaro

運動不足

Toritoribe

松葉解禁

milindindia

後輩

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