The State of the JREF political forums (rant)

[Mike Cash]

I don't begrudge the anime and music fans a place to congregate, and I don't care what the content or tone of their posts are. Whatever they choose to do is fine with me, and I suspect with some of the others who don't read those forums as well.

The only thing that is aggravating, and it certainly isn't the fault of those anime and music fans, is pulling up a list of new posts since our last visit and scrolling through page after page of new posts that predominantly are in areas of zero interest.

Even with my supremely developed level of embittered gittitude I don't wish them to go away....I just wish their new posts didn't show up in my list.

Come to think of it, what irritates me far, far more is the Member's Introduction area. Especially after some individual has gone through and added a "Welcome to the forum! <various multiple asinine smilies>" to every post he can find.

 

[Kinsao]

Come to think of it, what irritates me far, far more is the Member's Introduction area. Especially after some individual has gone through and added a "Welcome to the forum! <various multiple asinine smilies>" to every post he can find.

Aww Mikecash, your embittered gittitude never fails to brighten my day!

That is a wonderful phrase... "embittered gittitude"... the delicate balance of assonance and alliteration, plus the aesthetic pleasure of seeing it written down with all those graceful t-crosses and playful peppering of i-dots... a masterpiece, I congratulate you!

Thanks to everyone who had superhuman patience with my music-related rants, btw. I got sort of carried away.

It has always puzzled me why people would bash Japan in the political forum, anyway. I mean, it's not as if we can all turn around and say we love the government of our countries and everything they do, right? And, personally, I think the mods (and other posters too!) do a good job of hitting genuine nastiness over the head pretty damn quick.

 

[Maciamo]

Noyhauser, could you point at the threads that you say "have transformed the forum".
I haven't been very active on the forum since April this year, because I have been busy at work, and busy working on other sections of JREF (travel, redesign...).

May we should moderate more strictly the "China vs Japan" and "WWII" threads. Let us not allow any new thread for issues that have already been raised.

 

[senseiman]

Noyhauser - glad to see you are posting again, I was wondering what had happened to you.

I've been checking the boards just about every day and I notice that the political discussions seem to be dominated by people wanting to slam Japan for world war two and not apologizing as much as Germany. There are probably a million and one more interesting topics to discuss, but there seems to be always about half a dozen active threads related to that one narrow topic, its boring as hell!

Other than that I think the boards are doing pretty well. I left Japan a few months back (god do I MISS the place), so I suppose I haven't been as enthusiastic about posting things related to Japan recently.

 

[lexico]

My brief comment on the so-called Japan bashing:

1) historically inaccurate remarks are supposed to be corrected.

2) arguments contrary to sound logic demand correction.

3) arguments going against human rights, rights to be protected from verbal defense of war crimes a/o verbal racial assaults, and statements reflecting such ideas, must be corrected.

Flag attacks, language attacks, and racial attacks are quite revolting to human reason no matter who you are, no ? I was raised to respect humans in general, but I was also raised on the idea that inaccuracy, illogicality, and inhumanity must not be tolerated. I am certain that everyone can agree on these modern ideas that were formulated to guarantee a just, humane, and peaceful world where everyone can enjoy the freedeom of a non-violent, non-degrading atmosphere.

Those who tried to instigate racial conflicts were pounded upon; but I gravely disagree with some of Noyhauser's statements which is incongruent with some very basic values that should have been the ground on which an international forum like this forum was founded.

 

[noyhauser]

I'm a bit pressed for time today. I will post the first part today, and the rest definately tommorrow

Difference of opinion. I don't think mass deletion of threads and banning people is a productive way of keeping respectable forums. You're basically arguing that unless people post as you do, they shouldn't be allowed in at all. I agree there are posts that don't live up to the standard of intelligent, adult discussion, but like Mike said, this is the internet. There's always going to be bozos out there. Remember, you have the option of ignoring people. If people aren't living up to your standards, then go in there and fight it. Start more intelligent discussions.

I'm not asking people on here post as I do. In the very first post I made in this thread I pointed out that I've had many disagreements with people on this board, many of whom I believe are diametrically opposed to my point of view. However I completely respect them for their view, and would never ask for them to be censured. Moreover as I pointed out above to dutch baka, which you have failed to notice, quality of expression has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

What I think you fail to realize is that by letting Anti Japanese trolling to occur, you aren't doing free speech any favours, you're actually hurting it. People are refusing to post in the Political forums because arguments get corrupted into mindless anti Japanese rhetoric that had nothing to do with the original topic. Me posting will do little to change these people because of the nature of the topic. I'm not arguing that warcrimes don't exist. This isn't a "no you're wrong" situation, since I and most other open minded people I know don't deny warcrimes. I think that most people want to move beyond it. I do maintain that violence and constant rhetoric will only inflame Japanese opinion against the people perpetrating it, but replies go right to the same old rhetoric. Moreover the forum itself is essentially getting spammed by these threads.(see below for the example) I can't come up with a dozen new threads to counteract the posting of every single new photograph that emerges from the Yasukuni shrine.

I don't disagree that warcrimes occurred or that the Japanese haven't completely atoned for their war guilt, I've never said that. That's not what this is about. However what I am disagreeing here about is how people go into other threads and push that political agenda onto a seemingly unrelated thread, or incessantly post about it. I ask you now, is 10 threads on warcrimes about Japanese history indicative of Japanese history or the intelligence level of this board? It sinks other, far more intelligent threads off the page, where casual poster won't see them. They will think though that this is all people can talk about.

Noyhauser, could you point at the threads that you say "have transformed the forum".
I haven't been very active on the forum since April this year, because I have been busy at work, and busy working on other sections of JREF (travel, redesign...).

I think its not just one thread or a small number. If it was just one thread It would be easy to ignore and I certainly wouldn't be here complaining. Just a casual viewing. of the Forum topics of the Japanese history forum (Not even the Japanese Politics forum which are in a worse state) gives a fairly good idea of the problem.

A few good books

naginata & ninja's

Japanese WWII Uniforms

Himuro Family ( 1 2 )

Japan: A puppet Government?

WWII Japan Military History

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

book suggestions on Japanese war crimes, please

The Japanese and world history

Is that even close to a balanced reading of Japanese history? I realize this is a new trend on that forum, but its spam clear and simple and its clear that it is spreading. And as I stated above many threads about issues not dealing with warcrimes get corrupted by people to the blaming argument. Thats certainly the case in the For example the Hiroshima thread is a good Example (It really starts on page 4) There are far more examples, but I'm a bit pressed for time (my dissertation is due tomorrow)

 

[Maciamo]

Noyhauser, I have had a closer look at the Politics section, and indeed realised that many people posted threads that should not have been in that category, but in the China-Japan relations, Non-Japanese News or Serious Discussion sections. I have moved all the cuplrits. From now on, I will penalise (negative reputation points) people posting non-Japan related thread in the "News & Hot topics" section, as this is part of the Japan Forum, and not a subsection of "Serious discussion".

 

[noyhauser]

Thank you for your considertation. Maciamo, I appreciate it. For my part I will try to post more as well.

 

[mad pierrot]

I'm not asking people on here post as I do. In the very first post I made in this thread I pointed out that I've had many disagreements with people on this board, many of whom I believe are diametrically opposed to my point of view. However I completely respect them for their view, and would never ask for them to be censured. Moreover as I pointed out above to dutch baka, which you have failed to notice, quality of expression has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

What I think you fail to realize is that by letting Anti Japanese trolling to occur, you aren't doing free speech any favours, you're actually hurting it. People are refusing to post in the Political forums because arguments get corrupted into mindless anti Japanese rhetoric that had nothing to do with the original topic. Me posting will do little to change these people because of the nature of the topic. I'm not arguing that warcrimes don't exist. This isn't a "no you're wrong" situation, since I and most other open minded people I know don't deny warcrimes. I think that most people want to move beyond it. I do maintain that violence and constant rhetoric will only inflame Japanese opinion against the people perpetrating it, but replies go right to the same old rhetoric. Moreover the forum itself is essentially getting spammed by these threads.(see below for the example) I can't come up with a dozen new threads to counteract the posting of every single new photograph that emerges from the Yasukuni shrine.

I don't disagree that warcrimes occurred or that the Japanese haven't completely atoned for their war guilt, I've never said that. That's not what this is about. However what I am disagreeing here about is how people go into other threads and push that political agenda onto a seemingly unrelated thread, or incessantly post about it. I ask you now, is 10 threads on warcrimes about Japanese history indicative of Japanese history or the intelligence level of this board? It sinks other, far more intelligent threads off the page, where casual poster won't see them. They will think though that this is all people can talk about.

My bad. I don't have constant access to a computer anymore, and after checking into the history section a bit more deeply, and re-reading your post, I think I catch your drift. Personally, my attitude in general towards moderating is that the less the better, although I can see that you and some other members might appreciate more in that area.

:sorry:

 

[pipokun]

No need to penalise posts, just combine the posts under the name of freedom, democracy, justice, truth or whatever. :09: is all? I hope so.

History & Traditions
Your lounge for Japanese traditions and history.

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

 

[noyhauser]

I hope you notice that all those posts you pointed out has nothing to do with Japanese history and traditions

 

[Mike Cash]

Make an "Embittered Axe-Grinders" subforum.

 

[noyhauser]

would you be the first member?

or would the "embittered" forum be sufficient?

 

[Mike Cash]

I'm not embittered; it just looks that way on the internet.

 

[noyhauser]

Welcome to the internet.

 

[lexico]

Some threads have been moved: Where to go to contribute ?

No need to penalise posts, just combine the posts under the name of freedom, democracy, justice, truth or whatever. :09: is all? I hope so.

History & Traditions
Your lounge for Japanese traditions and history.

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

I hope you notice that all those posts you pointed out has nothing to do with Japanese history and traditions.

Good suggestion, pipokun, but bad observation, noyhauser. If you've been following the various discussions here and there which you obviously haven't, you would have learned that there were complaints for the Imperial Japanese position that they were not the only ones to commit atrocities.

Have you ever heard of 'balanced study' 'objective study' 'comparative study' ? Do you recognise reading posts how the IJA forces were badly treated by the US marines, the Soviet troops & the labor camps, or how Korean conscripts in Imperial Japanese Army uniform committed atrocities in Hong Kong for example ? See you have the slightest idea what I am aiming at, you budding political scientist.

I am only accomodating those complaints to give a fair assessment for everyone invovled, but you only see my flag. I could have started something on European atrocities in Africa, but refrained from doing so because the geography and history of Africa gives little chance of much atrocity between them and Imperial Japan. Get it ?

Those countries were selected by their very proximity to Imperial Japan, although I could have also asked for information from Mongolia, the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Australia, and New Zealand. I am excercising restraint to keep a balance in case you haven't noticed. Invest some time in the forum before jumping to any random conclusion that fits your fancy, noyhauser.

Furtheremore, in the Korean War and the Vietnam War, Modern Japan was heavily involved in logistics which explains the sudden economic growth of Japan at least in part. Apart from atrocities, these histories are inseparable from the history of Modern Japan. As a budding political scientist, you should be keenly aware of these facts far more than I, a mere lexicographer, could possibly be.

edit: I just learned that a mod/admin moved the following to Serious discussions >> American Issues:

book suggestions on US war crimes/atrocities, please

and the following to Serious discussions:

book suggestions on Chinese (CCP/PRC) war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Korean war crimes/atrocities, please
book suggestions on Russian/USSR war crimes/atrocities, please

However, the following has disappeared into no-man's land. Does that mean Taiwan has no intention of getting involved in this debate ? To my knowledge gained from R.J. Rummel's studies and independeent sources, GMD-ROC Taiwan gov't has been quite brutal in its counter-coummunist operations in Nanjing ('Bandit Suppression campaigns,' starting in December 1930 and lasting until 1935, Jiang Jie Shi attempted to exterminate the Communist forces in China. These campaigns were launched as follows: (1) December 1930; (2) May 1931; (3) June 1931; (4) April 1933; (5) October 1933), anti-Japanese campaign, the massacres of native Taiwanese aborigines, and torture of dissident groups and individuals. GMD-ROC's brutalities have been not insignificant, and hence deserve close studies in its own right.

book suggestions on Chinese (GMD/ROC) war crimes/atrocities, please

Now if you have any complaints about being partial, you know where to go to report them instead of constantly whining about it without proper support. Those threads are where you can help your argument by leaving your sources and references used. One example would be Tibetan issues. They do not count as valid counterarguments anymore in the Japanese forum, clear now ?

 

[Mars Man]

Well, I'm just kind of butt'n in here, cause you see, I ain't got much time under the belt here at Jref, and, uh, I just 'bout got no care for messy political things. . . yet you know, I think I can really see where a lot of you folks are coming from, but just am in no position to help much, I guess. Kind of hopless, huh?

But I just hope that this all plays out right. That we can all do our best to see what the facts are on things that kind of require known, or thought to be facts, so that I don't have to worry about Jref falling apart after I just joined only some 43 or so days ago.

I think there are a lot of nice people voicing things here, and I always try to see that first,regardless. . . sorry for going astray, this is supposed to be about the 'political' area, and here I am fettin' over the in-fightin'. . . time to go. I hope it all works out !! Really !! And here's a smiley for my good buddy Mike !! See you all later !!

 

[noyhauser]

Have you ever heard of 'balanced study' 'objective study' 'comparative study' ? Do you recognise reading posts how the IJA forces were badly treated by the US marines, the Soviet troops & the labor camps, or how Korean conscripts in Imperial Japanese Army uniform committed atrocities in Hong Kong for example ? See you have the slightest idea what I am aiming at, you budding political scientist.

I think that post was a tad condescending, Lexico, and that mildly offends me. Let's stick to the original topic, but with an objective and critical reading of the article before engaging in uncourteous debate. I'll stop here.

 

[lexico]

My bad, but thank you for quoting me, Noyhauser. It is good to see that you are finally learning something, as I am doing from you. Way to go, bud.

edit: I'd suggest we keep the personal messages to PM or email. My PM space is pretty limited right now, but you can email me at the address in my profile.

 

[noyhauser]

Oh but I have so much to learn. Like how to post reputation just like you.

You've just dragged thise thread you started into the limbo; that was another unintelligent post. Courtesy of your dear Rabbi, Lexico

Self-defeating rhetoric; you should try harder, Noyhauser ! Courtesy of your dear rabbi Lexico

Would you mind explaining to me what you mean by Rabbi? Do you think so much of yourself that you would deem to call yourself "rabbi"?

 

[mad pierrot]

I'm not embittered; it just looks that way on the internet.

That's funny, because I AM embittered, but it doesn't look that way on the internet.

(At least not all of the time.)

 

[Maciamo]

It looks like Noyhauser and Lexico are revealing their Duelist personality here and there.

Btw, I have moved the threads about book recommendation that were not directly related to Japan in the Serious Discussion forum.

 

[pipokun]

Btw, I have moved the threads about book recommendation that were not directly related to Japan in the Serious Discussion forum.

slow, but good traffic control.

 

[Davey]

i am getting anoyed about some things, some people really are getting agressive word forms on here, and disrespect each other.. hope some people on here, can be a bit nicer and more respectfull for each other.... please

 

[Void]

Dutch, why to bring back - what has subdued and almost forgotten? People stopped by now, thread hibernating
besides, everyday niceness and fluffyness like "no matter what" is a sickly sweet fake.
Let them be... sometimes