The Soulless Asian; Asian versus Western

[Haruspex]

Well, i don't mean it in a racist way or anything, but with its economical growth China will soon be the centre of the world.

As for North Korea, well we kinda live in an era where external intervention in this case is impossible i believe, even though its painful, we can't do a thing about it.
Pollution? I don't know much about the pollution caused by Asian countries, so i better not comment on this.
Communist dictatorships? It will work out one way or another.

 

[tokapi]

Number one is the USA, followed by China, Japan, Germany.The US has been the number one polluter in the world for years, including the time you where in Asia (Which I gather you mean the Far East, Asia is a rather large continent)

Correct .... China contributes 16 percent of the world total of carbon dioxide emissions, the second-highest after the *US at 22% .Double the percentage or more for US if we include American-invested manufacturing facilities over there.

* Sources : World Bank & ONS

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Correct .... China contributes 16 percent of the world total of carbon dioxide emissions, the second-highest after the *US at 22% .Double the percentage or more for US if we include American-invested manufacturing facilities over there.
* Sources : World Bank & ONS

This is changing though;

"China's emissions are just one-sixth of America's per capita, but the population is so huge that this year the country is due to become the world's biggest polluter";

BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | Chinese object to climate draft



Even polution aside, i would say that China treats its environment worse than what the americans treat theirs in certain respects, unfortunately China doesn't care much for its people let alone its wildlife. Its hard to expect China to treat its environment and its wildlife well when it doesn't even treat its people well, it has a pretty appalling human rights record etc.

 

[Sarapva]

I've heard those same things about China. And even though the U.S. is statistically the biggest polluter, I don't see pollution in the air here (I also don't live in a big city). I had friends who lived in Germany for a while, and they said it was much more polluted there than it is here.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I've heard those same things about China. And even though the U.S. is statistically the biggest polluter, I don't see pollution in the air here (I also don't live in a big city). I had friends who lived in Germany for a while, and they said it was much more polluted there than it is here.

That may or may not be true, but that doesn't of course nesarsarily mean that america is becomming less poluted, it could just be that china is becomming more poluted than america so america's levels of polution look better when compared to china.

My fiance used to live in America for quite a few years a long time before we met, he worked mostly on video games and during the years he lived in america he built up quite a photo album of his travels in america.
One thing that did stand out to me as i looked through his photo's of america was just the morning smog that rose everyday in so many of the cites he stayed at in america during his travels there. I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.
I'd hate to live in such cities with such bad air polution, it would drive me nuts, but then again i don't particularly enjoy city life that much in general (there is of course no doubt that there are many conviniences to living in a city), i just end up missing all the little things like having lots of tree's to look at as i walk along and having my own personal space, being able to walk in an empty street at 12 a clock at night and smelling the fresh clean air every morning and freshly cut grass in the summer afternoons etc etc.

 

[tokapi]

I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.

America's Los Angeles area is world's most polluted by automobiles & Gobi Desert's sandstorms sweep across northern China including Beijing in recent years attributed to the region's environmental catastrophy.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Well, i don't mean it in a racist way or anything, but with its economical growth China will soon be the centre of the world.
As for North Korea, well we kinda live in an era where external intervention in this case is impossible i believe, even though its painful, we can't do a thing about it.
Pollution? I don't know much about the pollution caused by Asian countries, so i better not comment on this.
Communist dictatorships? It will work out one way or another.

China is certainly very powerful but it is not the most economically stable of countries, its strength is in its raw numbers of people power, rather than in its technology, weapons, strength or currency etc or anything like that. If it sorted out its corrupt government and did more to stablise the growth of its population and ecomony etc, it would certainly become a terribly imense super power, but as it currently stands it is not imune from weakness even though it has many strengths.
Its always posible (and not that unlikely at the moment in my honest opinion) that something could happen to its economy with the way its currently going like what happened to japan in the 1990's;

"From the 1960s to the 1980s, overall real economic growth has been called a "miracle": a 10% average in the 1960s, a 5% average in the 1970s and a 4% average in the 1980s.[52] Growth slowed markedly in the 1990s, largely because of the after-effects of over-investment during the late 1980s and domestic policies intended to wring speculative excesses from the stock and real estate markets. Government efforts to revive economic growth met with little success and were further hampered in 2000 to 2001 by the deceleration of the global economy.[46] However, the economy showed strong signs of recovery after 2005. GDP growth for that year was 2.8%, with an annualized fourth quarter expansion of 5.5%, surpassing the growth rates of the US and European Union during the same period.";

Japan - Wikipedia



Who knows what is going to happen though? Either way though, i think places like America should watch what happens with China very carefully with a very stern eye. Its not exactly like China is run in a very morally correct way in many aspects of its goverment and more, i wouldn't expect China to be loyal towards America if there was no financial gain involved for China etc.
Anyhoo...Either way though i'm probably getting way over my head here with this stuff. Don't get me wrong, there are many aspects about China's culture which i like or interest me a great deal, but i just don't trust it that much. I think its success needs to be kept in check.


As to north korea, well thats a completely different cup of tea all together. At the end of the day, there are many countries whose people suffer a great deal like those living in north korea, but our governments will properly never intervene with what goes on in such countries to any great extent unless either 1. N korea poses some sort of serious threat to the west and refuses to back down, or 2. There is a large financial gain or something similar to reward us for delving into its many troubles.
I feel very sorry and sympathise greatly for those that live in N korea and have to suffer because of its highly corrupt disfunctional almost nazi like etc government, but then again there's so many problems in the world, whatcha gonna do at the end of the day? We simply don't have the power or right to sort out all of the worlds problems.
The only real way to help korea's people in the long term would be to topple its current government, but this would probably mean going to war with N korea, and even though korean people suffer in N korea because of their own country, they often don't realise this- chances are that if we went to war with N korea, its people would just suicidally throw themselves at us one after another until they couldn't physically fight as a country anymore against us. The casualities for the N koreans would be imense. And even if we won such a war, what sort of government would be put in place of its current leaders? Democracey in Iraq has failed and is unlikely to ever succeed with the way things currently are, there's no reason why it would work any better in N korea. A dictatorship would probably work with more success, but then again thats a very different and more complicated and difficult system to put into place and control etc.

At the end of the day, there just aren't any easy answers/solutions for these things. We send aid to N korea, but then when it arrives the governments propaganda just makes its people believe that the aid we send them is actually from their government and that us from the west are the real enemies of their country and the cause of all of their problems. The aid often ends up on the black markets or generally filling the pockets of corrupt government officials etc, and rarely does it ever help in any real way the people that it was originally intended to help- often, in certain respects it just makes things worse in the long term. You could almost say, whats the point in saving these people when they don't realise that we are trying to save them and that the longer they believe we're the enemies the less likely their situation is ever going to improve etc?
And this is just scratching at the surface of the countries problems, this is not even taking into consideration countries like America's problems etc.

 

[Sarapva]

One thing that did stand out to me as i looked through his photo's of america was just the morning smog that rose everyday in so many of the cites he stayed at in america during his travels there. I've seen worse polution on tv programs of other countries like the smog in Beijing, however i have to admit that the smog in the some of the photo's my fiance took while living america was still pretty bad.

Yes, I know that in big cities (like Los Angeles and New York) do have smog. I also wouldn't want to live in a big city because of that and the noise levels, space problems, etc.

I've heard that the American government owes money to China. I think most of us are just holding our breath now until the next presidential election, which hopefully will bring much-needed changes.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Yes, I know that in big cities (like Los Angeles and New York) do have smog. I also wouldn't want to live in a big city because of that and the noise levels, space problems, etc.
I've heard that the American government owes money to China. I think most of us are just holding our breath now until the next presidential election, which hopefully will bring much-needed changes.

With the air polution problem, this article on smog related deaths may be of interest to you guys (although it focuses on england, i think it is relevant to places like america too);

"Summer smog causes the deaths of more than 3,000 people each year, the Liberal Democrats have warned."

"The photochemical reactions involving these "precursors", as they are known, will create harmful ozone which can affect people's airways.

Even normally fit and health people may experience a shortness of breath, some coughing, chest tightness, or just irritation of the nose and throat.

Summer smog can also contain high levels of breathable dust, often referred to as particulate matter";

Full story;


BBC NEWS | UK | Summer smog 'killing thousands'




"People are being warned of the possible health risks after officials issued a smog warning for many parts of England."

"It said people sensitive to air pollution, such as those with heart and lung conditions, should heed the alert.

Ben Bradshaw, minister for local environmental quality, said people should "take sensible precautions, such as avoiding exertion outdoors on hot afternoons" to protect their health"

"People who are particularly sensitive to air pollution may begin to notice an effect on their breathing in the coming days.

Asthma sufferers are not necessarily more sensitive but, if affected, are advised to use their inhaler."

"During the 2003 heatwave, it was estimated... that up to 800 premature deaths may have occurred as a result of the poor air quality.";

Full story;

BBC NEWS | UK | Smog levels prompt health alert




" Officials believe that as many as 12,000 people may have died in the great London smog of 1952.

Many of those killed were elderly people or those who were already weak or ill.

According to medical staff who treated patients at the time, few people realised the extent of the impact"


"The interesting thing is that no one realised at the time that the no of deaths were increasing," he told the BBC.

"There weren't bodies lying around in the street and no one really noticed that more people were dying."

""We are better off but not as much better off as we might have thought. Fifty years on the great smogs are gone but invisible pollutants are still taking a major toll on health.

"Some 20,000 in England alone suffer shortened lives each year."

He says vehicle emissions are the main culprits and believes the government should be doing more to tackle the problem";


Full Story;

BBC NEWS | Health | Historic smog death toll rises




Pretty worrying stuff, huh? I'm glad i don't live in London at the very least .

But there is no doubt that all this air polution is destroying the health of our people, even if not everyone believe's in global warming, we should still try to cut down on levels of air polution for the health of our people at the very least.
People have a choice whether to smoke tobacco or not, if they die from it then thats just the risk they bargained to take when they took up smoking, but people who die from air polution have no choice whatsoever in the matter, everyone knows now days tobacco can give you lung cancer, but i wonder how many people realise the health problems of smog?
I don't really have anything against those that smoke, i am a light smoker myself, i know the risks of my habit to my health, but i think it is very unfair that people can die simply for living in their home city and many of these people are probably completely oblivious to the health impacts their choice of area to live in is having on their health. How many people's grandparents have died before their time because of smog, how many people's premature babies have died when they wouldn't of because of smog, how many people with illnesses have died because of smog when they could have otherwise lived and lead fullfilling happy lives etc?

IMHO, the government needs to do far more on making people aware how bad air polution in cities is for our health, so at least people can make a more informed choice on whether they want to live in a city with smog or not etc. From what i have seen, smog in london is not as bad as the smog in places like LA, i wonder how high the death and illness toll is for those living in LA due to the smog levels there? It is probably a lot higher toll.

More articles on air polution, this one is on children living in the US;

"Atmospheric pollution discriminates between the sexes, a study has found.

It examined the effects of smog on the respiratory systems of boys and girls, and found that while polluting gases affected boys most, particle pollution affected girls.

Scientists have no explanation as to why this might be."

"The finding is the latest surprise to emerge from a comprehensive look at the health effects of air pollution on US children."

"Children are particularly vulnerable to the effect of pollution"

"The study also showed both sexes suffered from pollution-related ill health.

Children in the most polluted communities covered by the research had lung growth about 5% lower than normal.

Coughing and wheezing among asthmatics was found to be more severe in areas with higher levels of nitrogen oxide and particle pollution";

Full story;

BBC NEWS | Health | Smog guilty of sex discrimination

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

" Cutting air pollution will start preventing illness almost straight away, according to a study which looked at death rates in Hong Kong.

In 1990, the then UK colony introduced regulations to reduce sulphur emissions from cars.

Researchers from the Universities of London and Hong Kong tried to gauge the impact of this"

" Their research, published in The Lancet medical journal this week, found that, on average, every resident of Hong Kong gained weeks of extra life expectancy for every year they breathed the cleaner air.

Women gained just over 20 days on average per year - and men 41 days."

"Deaths from respiratory disease fell by 5% each year from the introduction of the measure, and heart disease by 2% each year.

Anthony Hedley, a professor of community medicine at the University of Hong Kong, said: "Pollution from sulphur-rich fuels has an effect on death rates, especially respiratory and cardiovascular deaths"

"A report in the South China Morning Post suggested that particulate pollution sometimes reached more than four times US safety limits.

A previous study estimated that annual deaths as a result of respiratory or cardiovascular illness topped 6,000."


Full story;

BBC NEWS | Health | Smog laws 'save lives immediately'




"Air pollution causes the blood vessels to narrow - even in healthy people, scientists have shown for the first time.

The finding may explain why air pollution appears to increase the rate of heart attacks and other cardiovascular problems among people with heart and blood vessel disease.

In the study at the University of Toronto, 25 healthy people inhaled elevated concentrations of fine particles plus ozone for two hours.

After exposure, volunteers' blood vessels constricted between 2% and 4% on average.

However, their vessels did not constrict when they were exposed to ozone-free and particle-free air";

Full story;

BBC News | HEALTH | Pollution strangles blood supply



"A huge scientific study has produced the clearest evidence yet that long-term exposure to air pollution causes lung cancer.

Breathing in small particles of soot and dust over many years also significantly increases the risk of dying from heart disease, said the researchers.

The study, published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, involved hundreds of thousands of people in cities across the US - and looked at their health over two decades"

"The researchers found that the death rate from lung cancer increased by 8% for every increase of 10mcg of fine particulate matter per cubic metre.

There was also an increase in heart disease corresponding to the rise in levels of these key particles."

"In 1998, an influential government committee on the effects of air pollution suggested that 10,000 people a year might be dying as a result of particulate pollution.

In addition to lung cancers and heart disease, it has been linked to asthma, and other lung and circulatory diseases.

Roger Higman, a transport campaigner at Friends of the Earth UK, said that the sheer scale of the US research should point the way to similar UK studies.

"It's yet further evidence that pollution from cars and lorries shortens people's lives - and exposes the government's failure to tackle this problem.";


Full story;

BBC News | HEALTH | Air pollution cancer fears grow



" Children playing outdoor team sports in areas of high ozone concentration could be at increased risk of developing asthma.

Research suggests that they are three times more likely to develop the condition than children who do not take part in sporting activities.

Asthma is the most common chronic disease of childhood and it is on the increase in developed countries. However, scientists do not know why.

The new study suggests that pollution, which has long been suspected as a culprit, does indeed play a role.";

Full story;

BBC NEWS | Health | Ozone link to asthma





Anyhoo, there are dozens of articles on the bbc on stuff like this, so i won't post them all here. But the effects of air polution are far reaching, causing people heart disease, lung cancer, ashma and much more.

People have known since the victorian times that something was wrong with the air in places like London, and many people suffering from breathing problems were sent to live in the countryside for a while to help improve their health. But even though we have seemed to realise stuff like this, i think many people have forgotten about stuff like this or have underestimated it in this day and age, which is worrying when you read statistics like this;

"According to the United Nations, the planet's population is currently split almost right down the middle: 3.2 billion in the city, 3.2 billion in the countryside. But by the start of 2007, the balance will have tipped decisively away from the fields and towards the skyscrapers."

At least in England, the vast majority of people live in urban area's like towns and cities, i saw on tv on this program where they said something like apparently 99% of the population now lives in urban area's like cities and towns etc.

 

[Mars Man]

That was a nice bit of information, and I appreciate the trouble you went to in arranging it and putting it all out here. One question, though (and this has been troubling me for a while, now) why 'anyhoo' instead of 'anyhow?' Is it a Livepool thing, such as booket for bucket?

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

That was a nice bit of information, and I appreciate the trouble you went to in arranging it and putting it all out here. One question, though (and this has been troubling me for a while, now) why 'anyhoo' instead of 'anyhow?' Is it a Livepool thing, such as booket for bucket?

Nah "anyhoo" is just my style, even as seemingly illogical as it may appear at times .

Anyhoo... .

 

[Void]

Just random ramblings

i haven`t lived in Asia for 2 years, but stayed in US for a year as exchange
student, visited Jordan in 2005 and small part of south-east asia, some Europe, due to the country of my origin is "asia-ape" and therefore dare to draw few conclusions triggered by the initial post of this thread.

First of all, i am really surprised to what a narrow definition of the soul can
be brougt out of opening statments. Quite bold to proclaim someone "soulless"
with such few arguments (Socrates of the west, probably, would`ve asked for more logical and grounded facts, and Lao of the east would probably just chuckled)

as far as i can say
-> there are hard- and lousy-workers on either side of the world (and it is
often a matter of upbringing)

-> money is everything... just wonder why at the end of XIX - beginning of the XX centuries western labour unions were fighting for greater wages? And nowdays western people tend to look for a job what would give not only emotional merits but financial benefits as well. At the same time in the arab world you will often hear that "reputation is more important than money"

-> pollution... anyone here counted how many western manufacturing facilities were relocated to the third world countries because labour there was much cheaper and "ecological expenses" were nothing compare to those in US and Europe? Very interesting what will happen to the global economy if eastern countries will introduce and execute the same laws concerning ecological issues (as used in Europe or USA)?

-> as for deep thinkers here already was a good advise to study heritage of the east - its literature and arts

-> order and chaos... i don`t know much, but according to the core of eastern philosophy order and chaos are complimentary, asian people (mostly SEA region) can be more pedantic but it doesn`t mean that they strive for order more than westerners. For example, there is a stereotype in my country that we, russians, are more chaotic than europeans (especially, germans). But this is just national cliche, how correct is it only experience can show

-> many women in the world (both east and west) would say that men treat them as second-class people,perhaps, this feelings gave birth to "ugly" side of feminism

now it is time for home task reading of Kipling`s poem about west and east

=============================
and just few irritating facts form my own experience

-> littering (aside from air, light, noise pollution). Great problem of my own
country. Haven`t seen much in Thailand or Kuala Lumpur, in Jordan noticed a lot of old tires and plastic bags alongside the road. Countries what enforce a
surchage for littering suffer less from this problem

-> acquisitiveness. Became sort of sport to swindle a tourist, especially taxis
and various markets. Spotted in some european countries, Russia, Egypt and Turkey, tourist areas in SEA (although never encountered in Cambodia). Regulated prices exclude such possibility, but it certainly doesn`t mean that fare is always fare

-> consuming culture. Like it or not but the leader is still West, though it
turns into a problem in eastern region also. Mostly due to the economical growth and aggresive propaganda of western style of living (which (propagnda) excludes real western values). And to my not so humble opinion this is one of the major keys to the pollution, money-is-first thing, bubble economies and such.

-> religiosity. All guilty %)))
Had enougth of weekly church visits in US,
think that Russian Orthodox Church stuck its head into too many secular areas,
consider that it is too much of Buddha in Asia,
everyone heard about fanatical islamists,
shall leave the judgement of Vatican to catholics...
Don`t recall who of arabs said "Growing number of mosques is a sign of upcoming doomsday". Today we face an empty facade, true reverence of divine became a rare thing (or if not rare, then absolutely unheard)

===========================

it is hard to accept the cultural differences, it is extremely difficult to
understand these differences, but is very easy to jump to the conclusions and
judgement. We rare make efforts to understand and deemed to face the consequences. For awhile we have a place to escape and live in comfortable and comprehensible environment... but for how long?