The Power of Profanity

[ShadowSpirit]

Caution: This thread may contain simulated cursing. Participants are advised to please respect the JREF regulations for posting. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the merits of the listed topic. It should not be used as an excuse to curse when possible or promote irrational behavior. Maintain proper etiquette please.


Profanity, considered the lowest form of communication. The words that fall under its listing can in example serve to: Insult, amplify negative emotions, or express hostility. Obscene language can impact to offend others and classify the using individual as a degenerate.

Psychology dictates that it isn't the situation itself that offends, but rather our interpretation of the situation that offends.

Words are words. If you knew nothing of what it meant, then it would have no power over you nor any strength for the person who uses it. This is an examination of those words when used individually. The concept being that a person can legitimately say. "Get lost." With no reprecussions for censorship but cannot say. "F*** off." These words inflect a change that somehow makes the expression now unacceptable. It seems almost comical to build a reputation around a word that by itself means absolutely nothing, yet can still induce stress to some whether it is written or spoken. Even the nature of cloaking the word is absurd. As if the word F*** is a visage of pornography in which the nipples and crotch have a mosaic over them.

Here is the question I'm introducing...

Why do people feel a need to categorize and feel offended by profanity as a standalone form of communication?

 

[Illusional]

personally i think that this situation mainly deals with our upbringing. sure we were taught that fowl language and drugs are bad, but it's funny when you think about it. if clinton can get away with "puffing" on weed, yet micheal phelps is on the verge of loosing his medals, how you do these two people into different categories?

morally speaking, once our nation frowned upon words such as *****, but i think today's society is taking a different turn. they say that word all over our local comedy shows that air on television.

overall, i think when it comes down to profanity, it depends on how the people around you react. when you start to offend others, then it's looked down upon. however, if you are speaking with your friends and every other words that exits your mouth is ****, yet it's a common thing, that it's acceptable.

raverboy

 

[ShadowSpirit]

personally i think that this situation mainly deals with our upbringing. sure we were taught that fowl language and drugs are bad, but it's funny when you think about it. if clinton can get away with "puffing" on weed, yet micheal phelps is on the verge of loosing his medals, how you do these two people into different categories?
morally speaking, once our nation frowned upon words such as *****, but i think today's society is taking a different turn. they say that word all over our local comedy shows that air on television.
overall, i think when it comes down to profanity, it depends on how the people around you react. when you start to offend others, then it's looked down upon. however, if you are speaking with your friends and every other words that exits your mouth is ****, yet it's a common thing, that it's acceptable.
raverboy

Yes. Though that is what makes cursing such an enigma to me. Cause any situation you can think that involves how a person is perceived while cursing, can also be duplicated without the profanity. The example you bring up is when a person uses excessive profanity. Yet for you being in Hawaii, what do you think when people keep saying "bra," "cousin/cuz," or "yeah" often? When you abuse a slang term in this manner it can replicate the same undignified personage that profanity illustrates.

 

[Illusional]

personally i don't get offended when it comes to profanity. whether we like it or not, it has become part of our day to day speech. sure you can argue that there are people who go months without swearing,

i understand what you mean when you say people can abuse "brah". a lot of mainlanders tend to act local and use this terms. i will admit that it sounds very funny, but it's just something that i have gotten used it. my opinion won't really change how people act.

more so, i just think that how you use profanity and where you use profanity changes it's effect. say for example a business meeting versus a drill commander. both are people and places that require respect, but the language really differs.

raverboy

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Right, so the issue isn't about which words are used, but when to exercise respect or not. Again making which words are chosen to express that direspect arbitrary. Whether I say. "Oh damn." "Oh sh*t." or "Oh ****." It just doesn't make sense that the words fall into varying degrees of acceptability.

 

[Illusional]

yes, cursing in public isn't looked at respectably. it's just a social norm that people accept as a whole.

raverboy

 

[Elizabeth]

Right, so the issue isn't about which words are used, but when to exercise respect or not. Again making which words are chosen to express that direspect arbitrary. Whether I say. "Oh damn." "Oh sh*t." or "Oh ****." It just doesn't make sense that the words fall into varying degrees of acceptability.

So you want to release subject areas of "sh*tting" or "f*cking" into the mix of general conversation and still don't see the difference with overuse of "yeah" or other innocuous slang ?

 

[ShadowSpirit]

So you want to release subject areas of "sh*tting" or "f*cking" into the mix of general conversation and still don't see the difference with overuse of "yeah" or other innocuous slang ?

I construe the examples you listed as different uses for profanity then that of what you originally quoted me on.

In an attempt to apply my thought process to your example. I'd say that "f*cking" shouldn't be thought of any different then, "screwing," "fornicating," "copulating," or "procreating." The direction I'm trying to take this in is that the idea of having taboo words is absurd. There isn't a single word categorized as profane that can't be expressed with non-profane words.

What's the difference between saying "doo doo" and "sh*t?" The first one sounds cute, is that it? I'm not trying to act naive as if I don't realize there is a difference in the common world mentality. I'm just trying to draw up an observation and discussion about why this mentality towards profanity exists.

I wouldn't want anybody to call me an "@sshole." Yet I would be just as upset if someone called me a "butthole." To me, they're still comparing me to a dirty orifice of the body. Why should one be more acceptable to be heard or said than the other? They describe the exact same thing.

As for excessive use of a slang word. I was referring to how there are other ways aside from profanity that a person can give the impression of being unsophisticated. Now, don't get me wrong. I am not judging anybody on the way they talk nor do I feel that slang has a bearing on a person's intelligence, personality, or character. How a person talks can play a role in the way they are judged by some. It isn't the strength of slang words vs profanity. It's about the impression it can give someone as a demonstration that without profanity, a similar effect can be retrieved by overuse of slang.

 

[Elizabeth]

I construe the examples you listed as different uses for profanity then that of what you originally quoted me on.
In an attempt to apply my thought process to your example. I'd say that "f*cking" shouldn't be thought of any different then, "screwing," "fornicating," "copulating," or "procreating." The direction I'm trying to take this in is that the idea of having taboo words is absurd. There isn't a single word categorized as profane that can't be expressed with non-profane words.

Well, I do agree that people should be able to communicate articulately their thoughts without swearing. It seems to be the combination of loosening of standards in social settings and a more belligerent society in general which has made obsenity unfortunately more visible, more casual and more frequent.

But every language has taboo forms that allow for the expression of emotional states too strong and deep for conventional words and in symbolic form, without getting physical. If cursing didn't offend anyone or send signals of anger and hostility it wouldn't be functional. Why there is so much antagonism to begin with is a seperate issue.


Besides, there's a spectrum of connotation within every group of synonyms. The harrassing, offensive ones are simply a level of degree more disrespectful than what comes further up on the range as borderline
acceptable (screwing, fornication as less polite than philandering, sleeping around for instance ...etc)

 

[Haruspex]

Why is it exactly that im supposed to accept profanity is a bad thing? Because society said so?
I could insult someone in a more sophisticated way, yes, but that person would be insulted nevertheless.
I could refrain from uttering profanities in moments of joy, but hey, no one's going to be insulted, so why?
I could engage in a long verbal masturbation producing numerous euphemisms... but why? Why the hell?

Rape, murder, mutilation, torture. These are all words associted with negative images, so what next? The great sophisticated society's gonna come up with long, 3-4 line phrases for them?

I do agree that there are certain situations in which it would be foolish to swear or curse, but hey, that does not mean its inappropriate.
The word inappropriate is plainly an idiocy that should be erased from the dictionary.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Well, I do agree that people should be able to communicate articulately their thoughts without swearing. It seems to be the combination of loosening of standards in social settings and a more belligerent society in general which has made obsenity unfortunately more visible, more casual and more frequent.

But every language has taboo forms that allow for the expression of emotional states too strong and deep for conventional words and in symbolic form, without getting physical. If cursing didn't offend anyone or send signals of anger and hostility it wouldn't be functional. Why there is so much antagonism to begin with is a seperate issue.


Besides, there's a spectrum of connotation within every group of synonyms. The harrassing, offensive ones are simply a level of degree more disrespectful than what comes further up on the range as borderline
acceptable (screwing, fornication as less polite than philandering, sleeping around for instance ...etc)

I do see the point you're making now. I take for granted the casualness of the English language at least when it is used by Americans. Having designated words that are set apart to not only describe something, but are reserved to deliberately offend the person you're speaking to if albeit indirectly. Bringing up this point helps me to better understand how words of this nature come to be, but at the same time it still confuses me why people let themselves be offended. It's just as Derfel said...

I could refrain from uttering profanities in moments of joy, but hey, no one's going to be insulted, so why?

It reminds me of how in most situations, the masu form isn't used in Japanese literature as it doesn't make any assumptions on the person reading. If I say ****. Does disguising it somehow confuse you from what I am saying? Do people somehow now think I just said fick, fock, fack, or feck? Then if I don't put the * in the word, will they now be offended after me removing all the mystery of the word I was trying to use? It just seems silly in practice. I acknowledge this precedence of profanity and obscenity exists. It doesn't mean it makes much sense.

 

[Illusional]

it's another sign of the changing times.

raverboy

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The etymology of **** is an interesting read. Search for it here

I don't think it's purely arbitrary that certain words are taboo. If we consider the etymology of the more "offensive" words, I think we'll find that their origin has imbued them with that taboo. I also wonder whether the particular sounds in those words trigger some unconscious emotional response, that their more acceptable synonyms do not.

I also think that the taboo gives certain words a power that is dimished by overuse. I hate to hear people use **** as every other word, firstly because it shows their lack of respect for anyone who might be (perhaps unreasonably) offended by it, and secondly, those words have a more or less specific use, that overuse detracts from. I swear, probably to excess, but not through lack of intelligence or respect. I swear a lot because I am a passionate person, and sometimes that's just the best way I can find to express my feelings. "Oh dear!" just doesn't seem to convey the same emotion as "F*cking hell!". Having said that, there are certain words I refrain from using in the company of my parents

 

[ShadowSpirit]

The etymology of **** is an interesting read. Search for it here

I don't think it's purely arbitrary that certain words are taboo. If we consider the etymology of the more "offensive" words, I think we'll find that their origin has imbued them with that taboo. I also wonder whether the particular sounds in those words trigger some unconscious emotional response, that their more acceptable synonyms do not.

I also think that the taboo gives certain words a power that is dimished by overuse. I hate to hear people use **** as every other word, firstly because it shows their lack of respect for anyone who might be (perhaps unreasonably) offended by it, and secondly, those words have a more or less specific use, that overuse detracts from. I swear, probably to excess, but not through lack of intelligence or respect. I swear a lot because I am a passionate person, and sometimes that's just the best way I can find to express my feelings. "Oh dear!" just doesn't seem to convey the same emotion as "F*cking hell!". Having said that, there are certain words I refrain from using in the company of my parents

Thanks for the link. I enjoy the information it provides.

I'm not sure I agree that **** is any less offensive in its abundant use. Your use of profanity demonstrates what I feel is an ideal approach and mindset to the words. Afterall, I'm not advocating that people should go out of their way to insult people or offend. I just can't believe that such a phenomenon exists to begin with in this need to be offended by cursing. The psychology behind people *gasping* should a sh*t slip from a person's mouth. Also people I've met who won't curse at all. As if the uttering of such a word has the power to infect their present company, corrupt minds, or secure a place in eternal damnation. Whether a person chooses not to curse for the prevention of accidentally offending other people is one thing, but I'd hope that any intelligent person wouldn't be so out of sync that they can't see how harmless it is to just utter **** in front of someone who couldn't care less if the word is said or not.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

I'm not sure I agree that **** is any less offensive in its abundant use.

I didn't really mean that it's less offensive if overused. Actually, I probably find it more offensive. I hate to hear language misused. Seeing someone type it's when they mean its jars on me just as much as hearing someone say **** as every other word. Misusing language leads to misunderstanding. But then I am a grammar nazi...

I just can't believe that such a phenomenon exists to begin with in this need to be offended by cursing. The psychology behind people *gasping* should a sh*t slip from a person's mouth.

I think I see your point now, although I'm not sure I've met many people who are offended on principle. I know my grandma would feign offense as a means to discourage our cursing. Her method was a bit off, but she meant well.

Also people I've met who won't curse at all.

My sister is like that. I've heard her swear only once, in a situation of extreme duress. The funny part is, she uses pseudo-swear words, in exactly the same way as I curse

She's not religious or especially prudish, so I'm not sure why she has this affectation, particularly since she is honest to the point of making herself ill if she needs to tell a white lie. I'll try asking her why she never swears, perhaps we'll hear a revelation ;-)

 

[ShadowSpirit]

My sister is like that. I've heard her swear only once, in a situation of extreme duress. The funny part is, she uses pseudo-swear words, in exactly the same way as I curse

I'm glad you brought up the concept pseudo-swear words. I was waiting for the opportunity to work this topic in.

This demonstrates that if you remove all the known curse words available, that people will find a need to invent new ones. We see this a lot in slang too. I could say the word 'taint' and it doesn't mean much of anything. That is unless of course you know what the slang term for that word is, then suddenly it becomes extremely offensive. Notice how I don't have to censor the word however? Which leads to that repetitive absurdity that I keep holding high like the town crier. Here's another one for you, dork. Lots of people say dork. How many realize that it means d*ck?

To your sister, her supplement swear words seem harmless. In a sense, they are. Just the same as actual swear words are when you think about it. Yes, I'm stretching this out of proportion and asking to think almost abstractly on the concept of cursing as being harmless. Yet I'm sensing that you are completely understanding what I'm getting at, whether you do or do not agree to it.

As for your sister. Give me a day with her. I'll have her cursing so much that it will make sailors blush. All part of my cursing seminars.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

How's this for a way of looking at it? Rather than seeing swear words as offensive, just consider them a form of superlative. In the same way as we have big, bigger, biggest, we have go away, get lost, **** off.

 

[ShadowSpirit]

How's this for a way of looking at it? Rather than seeing swear words as offensive, just consider them a form of superlative. In the same way as we have big, bigger, biggest, we have go away, get lost, **** off.

I appreciate the analogy. Though I have already been seeing it in those terms. In fact, your example only helps to simplify the point I've been siding with this whole time. I just never realized how much easier it would have been to take that route until you laid it out for me. Clever woman. So lets use what you wrote to paint a silly narrative of how other people look to me when getting offended by profanity...

<person 1> big <person 2> ok <person 1> bigger <person 2> Fine! Be that way then. <person 1> biggest <person 2> I don't appreciate you using that language around me. I'm offended.

 

[Kinsao]

Well - words mean different things! And some are more offensive than others! Yeah, to some extent that did start off as an arbitrary distinction by society, so what we have is an existing point in the middle of the evolution of language, so to speak - which does not change that fact.

Of course, they are all 'only' words, but if words did not have different meanings there would be no point in having different words at all. @_@

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Well - words mean different things! And some are more offensive than others! Yeah, to some extent that did start off as an arbitrary distinction by society, so what we have is an existing point in the middle of the evolution of language, so to speak - which does not change that fact.
Of course, they are all 'only' words, but if words did not have different meanings there would be no point in having different words at all. @_@

I agree to there being different definitions and meanings for words. It's when people choose to be offended by profanity is where I get amused. It goes back to the example of even listing the word ****. You can't do it. It isn't allowed to be said on public television in America. Why not? It doesn't make sense. I just can't help but wonder if people even know why they're offended by profanity to begin with. Lets try an exercise...

Lets take the comparison of these words: screwing vs f*cking.

1) Can you tell me (in your own words) the verb definition of each word? If you feel they have the same definition, then please indicate such.

2) Now, can you tell me if you feel that one word is more offensive than the other. Again, if you feel their level of offensiveness is the same, then please indicate such.

3) Finally, if you chose for one word to be more offensive than the other. Try to explain why it is more offensive.

I think this exercise is a lot harder than it sounds.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Lets take the comparison of these words: screwing vs f*cking.

1) Can you tell me (in your own words) the verb definition of each word? If you feel they have the same definition, then please indicate such.

2) Now, can you tell me if you feel that one word is more offensive than the other. Again, if you feel their level of offensiveness is the same, then please indicate such.

3) Finally, if you chose for one word to be more offensive than the other. Try to explain why it is more offensive.

I think this exercise is a lot harder than it sounds.

Hmm ok I'll play along. Here are just my knee-jerk reactions to hearing both words. Let's try.

Screwing: It's definitely lighter than the f-word. It's not really profanity to say 'quit screwing around and get back to work'. If you mean screwing solely in the context of intercourse though, then I'd say screwing has this idea of one person really doing it to another. It doesn't sound quite right saying 'Me and my gf screwed last night'. I mean you could say that but.. I'd probably be more so inclined to say something like 'I've been screwing my secretary'. Screwing is also decidedly male, the screw being an obvious euphemism for the male penis, although when women use it I'd imagine its during circumstances where they're the initiating party or the party in control of when/how the sex is done, like, 'I've been screwing my boss', meaning I let it happen or I let him do it to me, again connotating one party acting on another albeit psychologically.

Outside of sex, being 'screwed-over', 'screwed', and so on, means someone/something did it to you. I think that one-sidedness is the hallmark of 'screw'.

Fu*king: Infinitely more profound and interesting. I wouldn't know where to start. As a sex word, I think it really encompasses the most basal, animalistic sense of sex. That part of the session where you both really hit your stride, where both people are just going at it vigourously, mouths half-open, the pain/pleasure expression on their faces, unaware of anything else around them. That moment is ******* I think. For some reason when I think of ******* I always think of the girl on the bottom too, or on all fours.

Pardon my graphic description.

Ok, is one more offensive? Case by case.

Taking offense is far deeper than the words. Offense is a sense of having been wronged and it can happen on so many levels. I dare say mere profanity alone is barely enough to get a rise out of me, whereas by contrast the slightest hint of sarcasm at the wrong time by a bitchy girlfriend or know-it-all friend would be enough to send me into a seething rage.

So in short no, neither is really more offensive, personally speaking.

I appreciate the analogy.

haha u said anal

 

[ShadowSpirit]

Fu*king: Infinitely more profound and interesting. I wouldn't know where to start. As a sex word, I think it really encompasses the most basal, animalistic sense of sex. That part of the session where you both really hit your stride, where both people are just going at it vigourously, mouths half-open, the pain/pleasure expression on their faces, unaware of anything else around them. That moment is ******* I think. For some reason when I think of ******* I always think of the girl on the bottom too, or on all fours.

I was referring to the act of sexual relations. I should habe been more specific with the verb use of those words.

I suppose I don't read as much into profanity as other people. Whether someone tells me they're screwing someone else or f*cking someone else, the identical point comes to mind. That being, sexual relations were involved. The use of either word detaches it from being an act of love, as it was used so indelicately as such. This can also be achieved by saying: fornicate, copulate, or procreate. They all draw up the same imagery no matter how awkward it might sound to use such words. So why is it okay for a person to say they fornicated, but can't say that they ******?

When a person gasps by the choice of words, it seems ludicrous. Especially if they're an adult. As if they don't have the common sense of mind to just laugh it off as a word. Did my use of **** somehow take money out of your children's mouths, set a church on fire, stab you in the gut, or psychologically tramatize your reality? (and by you, I am being metaphoric to those whom get offended by cursing.)

They're just words! It's how you use them that should matter, not the word itself. This reminds me of the 'slurping noodles vs blowing nose' ordeal between Japan and the USA. Slurping noodles is considered extremely rude in the states, but is encouraged in Japan. Whereas blowing one's nose is acceptable in the USA but offensive in Japan. Try explaining to both groups how silly each one is about being offended by these things and they would look at you like you're crazy. "How can you NOT be offended by slurping noodles." Exclaims America!

You can either accept it as a plausible thing to be upset by, or see it as a silly technicality that people should just "get over it" already.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

I wouldn't fully agree with your point that all sex-related words are created equal. I was, in my graphic example, attempting to demonstrate the images that flash through my head in a split-second and thusly determine how 'profane' or moreso for me how graphic or 'vulgar' a reference to the base act becomes. The word **** conjures up images of intercourse as I have described above, where as screw conjures up different images. Other words do different things. This adds the flavour and atmosphere by which they're used correctly/accurately/funnily/offensively etc.

Also keep in mind that not everyone sits there thinking about just how offensive they are, they are simply offensive the moment they've left the speakers mouth because in what context, what arena they get used also becomes a point of reference. Language is completely and inextricably intertwined with culture. If, in a person's culture, a word is deemed offensive because members of that culture use it when they are attempting to be as vulgar and offensive as possible, that word is essentially vulgar and offensive by nature regardless of whether its base meaning is a simple thing like sex (a concept people find offensive in and of itself as well).

The English say **** (the c-word) quite often and toss it around without much care, but that word is extremely offensive to women in North America.

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The English say **** (the c-word) quite often and toss it around without much care, but that word is extremely offensive to women in North America.

C*nt is considered a lot more offensive here than ****, and I wouldn't quite say it's tossed around without much care. It's generally considered extremely offensive, and you rarely hear it on TV. ****, in contrast, is no big deal. It's permitted on public TV after 9pm, whereas c*nt wasn't permitted at all until a few years back.

 

[bakaKanadajin]

Really that's interesting. The English I meet here all use it quite openly so I was under the impression it was used the same way in the UK.