Something form language courses i lack...

[Ma Cherie]

Yeah, after reading this thread I was giggling a bit.

 

[Mike Cash]

I think the OP might like to look into studying linguistics rather than attempting to recreate the study of linguistics independently.

He might also give a little thought to modifying his snottiness.

 

[kohlrak]

kohlrak, trust me, your "system" here will only lead you down a slower path to Japanese proficiency,

Do i have a choice?

All this time could be spent learning new vocab, katakana, hiragana, and kanji, using very basic sentence patterns.

Previous of the lesson i am on, the only actual lessons were either strictly vocab, phrases with no way to elaborate, or the one lesson 8 where we talk about how to request different items in a restaurant. I really don't have basic sentance patterns.

What I recommend is that when you learn a new sentence structure just take it for what it's worth and don't analyse it too much.

It's not the sentance structure i'm analyzing. It's conjugation. I'm trying to figure out how the words themselves work. Subject Object Verb is a very easy structure to learn. That is, if that is what you mean. Right now i'm trying to figure out the classes of words and how to use them. It's not like i have anything much to go on at this point. when asking about じゃ and では i was trying to assertain if they were conjugations of a verb into a small verb phrase. I never knew it was 2 particles put together.

Then, come three or six months later, the true, deep "meaning" (that you're searching for now) will suddenly click. From that moment that sentence pattern will actually feel natural since you'll be able to feel the meaning of it when you use it.

like i said, it's not the sentence pattern I'm having trouble with. It's making vocabulary and understanding the words. It's not like i'm trying to make 2 or more separate clauses, i'm trying to create simple 1 clause sentences like "how are you?" or "i like to eat" or such. Now i know that's slightly more complicated in japanese, but those were simply examples of what I'm attempting.

Take it from me man, I've been studying Japanese for over 18 months now, and teaching English to Japanese for almost two years, so I feel pretty confident of my advice.

I think i understand your point of view now... I think you're getting the wrong idea of what I'm attempting. I'm not trying to force the language in my head, i'm trying to get to a point that i can construct simple sentences from a dictionary.

I think the OP might like to look into studying linguistics rather than attempting to recreate the study of linguistics independently.

I'm not trying to recreate the study.

He might also give a little thought to modifying his snottiness.

If you were given more questions than answers and staying up so late your eyes are poppin' out, you'd be a little cranky too.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

quick undetailed analysis says it's a form of "to carry." And i stress "undetailed"

Y
You know how "take" in English can have about a zillion different meanings depending on context?

持つ is similar to this. BTW, 持っている is kind of like the "-ing" form of the verb. The base verb is 持つ, and it could be translated as "to have/hold", but due to the nature of Japanese verbs, this English translation is nowhere near perfect for grammatical reasons.

 

[kohlrak]

You know how "take" in English can have about a zillion different meanings depending on context?

Of course, it's irregular.

持つ is similar to this. BTW, 持っている is kind of like the "-ing" form of the verb. The base verb is 持つ, and it could be translated as "to have/hold", but due to the nature of Japanese verbs, this English translation is nowhere near perfect for grammatical reasons.

Irregular, perhaps? ある seems to be irregular too. And whatever あります's infinitive form is likely to be as well.

 

[Mikawa Ossan]

ある seems to be irregular too. And whatever あります's infinitive form is likely to be as well.

The base form of あります is ある, by the way. Incidentally, Japanese does not have infinitive forms of verbs. ある、たべる, etc. are called "base forms" or "dictionary forms" of the verb, but they are not infinitives.

 

[kohlrak]

I meant います not あります. X'D what was i thinking? lol

There are no infinitives? Interesting... They used for separate clauses or used for some other case? (considering "dictionary forms" in other languages are used for separate clauses, but from what I've seen in japanese so far, it may not be such. Other than "non past tentative" and "non past polite" forms, i really have no way to interpret the meaning of verbs.)

 

[tanhql]

you can check up these sites:
Verb-related particles - Tae Kim's Japanese grammar guide
Learning Japanese Verb Groups
Part 4: Verbs and Adjectives

 

[kohlrak]

That about page on the verbs explained a small amount...

Part 4: Verbs and Adjectives

Partially wrong, but is partially correct as well... (it says that there are only 2 irregular verbs...)

<-- appears to be the most useful... どもありがとう、tanhqlさん！ (qatlho'neSqu', tanhql Dun)

 

[tanhql]

Part 4: Verbs and Adjectives
Partially wrong, but is partially correct as well... (it says that there are only 2 irregular verbs...)

and there is. only する and 来る are irregular. 行く is not a irregular verb, since all it's conjugations, except the ~te form, follows the rules of it's group's conjugation.

what you are doing now is akin to a japanese learning english by 'dissecting' english. like:
is 'pare' derived from 'are'? since both have an 'are'? so does it mean one person cannot pare, since 'are' is a plural, and 'pare' is derived from 'are'?

 

[kohlrak]

That's not quite how i'm analyzing the language. What i'm doing at the moment is trying to find the different types of conjugation and how they affect the sentance. Then i shall worry about the types of verbs and how they're conjugated as i come across them in the book. Currently, だ is conjugated in my book. But not all the conjugations and conjugation types are listed at the moment. Even bigger problem is that they use words that are different from the referances on most websites such as wiki. You don't find "tentative" (for example) conjugation on wiki or even on this site, for that matter, but you do in my book. I've figured out as much as my book is incomplete and unthorough, despite how it advertises that it is thorough. Basically, it does serve as a model for research though. it provides ideas, that mearly need elaborated on. Right now, it is introducing the copula. Therefor, my current objective is to understand the types of conjugation (not types of verbs at this point) so i can understand the conjugations of だ which aren't fully documented here. All the pages to this point explain how it is used, but not the effects of the use of such conjugation. EXAMPLE:

Hypothetical form (仮定形 kateikei)
is used for conditional and subjunctive forms, using the -ba or -domo ending.

They say that instead of saying "it is used to give a feeling of unsureness". And i'm only guessing that it is what they mean.

and you forgot one... だ. Just because it's called the "copula" dosn't mean it's not a verb. And what about "to do"? i heard "to do" is irregular as well. Well actually, according to the dictionary, する could be many things, including "to do." It could also mean "to print" "to rub" and such as well. Based on my knowledge of other languages "to print" and "to rub" are not irregular.

And no, i'm not trying to be rude. It now is all comming together what your problem with my method is... You're not understanding what my method is... We're not on the same page... It seems that you guys think i'm trying to understand meaning from nothingness. I'm trying to learn how things are done, not neccesarily a point behind doing those things. Creepy enough, i like to analyze english as well. lol

 

[tanhql]

します is the present formal form of する
テニスをします = 'to do tennis'. to play tennis. テニス is tennis.
仕事をします = 'to do work'. to work. 仕事 is work.
掃除をします = 'to do cleaning'. to clean. 掃除 is clean
勉強をします = 'to do study'. to study. 勉強 is study

so from this examples, する can change nouns or adjectives into verbs. like 'study' in english can be a noun or verb, and the する separates the noun meaning from the verb meaning.

 

[kohlrak]

reminds me of "pull a" in english. EX:

Pull a Terminator.

Meaning: To kill everything in an area using the strongest weapons at hand.

Though, i can see already that it's not quite the same. lol And i really love how that works. X'D Though, such a verb is begging for abuse, but i will try not to abuse it. lol

 

[The7thSamurai]

That about page on the verbs explained a small amount...
Part 4: Verbs and Adjectives
Partially wrong, but is partially correct as well... (it says that there are only 2 irregular verbs...)

Chances are that most of those learning websites are 100% right. And when you think they're wrong, you're probably wrong, as in your example given above. You should trust them more.

 

[kohlrak]

and what do you have to base this on? Alot of people make learning websites with false facts just so they look smart and are appriciated. And everyone loves to be appriciated.

 

[The7thSamurai]

I base it on the fact that I've never come across an error on a Japanese learning website.

 

[kohlrak]

Try taking a look at a C++ learning site, it counts as a learning site too, right? Many have errors.... (and no, i'm not making a pun about 404.)

 

[The7thSamurai]

In my experience, when I've come across a would-be error, it turned out to be something that I just hadn't learnt yet.

 

[kohlrak]

I've used C++ for a while now, way too often is the standard library taught as if it is actually part of the language when it is not. This is very misleading and when writing stuff for other processors, this could add alot of extra work and time in writing a compiler. And alot of C++ examples don't compile. lol

 

[bentenmusume]

I plan on learning how it woks, so i can "plug things in" so to speak. Basically, i wanna try to do this so i can learn the language via "pluggin' things in" (kinda hard to explain what i mean by this) since it'll save more time. Basically, time is my enemy, so i'm trying to force everything in by "killing myself" with a large amount of research and such.

You repeatedly mention how limited your time is. Well, if that's the case, it's even more important for you to make the best use of that time by studying effectively, rather than just spinning your wheels with "research" that isn't going to get you even one step closer to understanding even the most fundamental points of the language.

Then on top of that i would have to go to a collage bookstore (love to know where the nearest one is) and hope they have some kind of resource for japanese. Now i don't know about other places, but i live in PA and it's rather hard to get such material. Then we talk about costs... I'd expect such a book to be at least $50, and i do not have a job. I can't ask my dad for money as we already have a book to study japanese from. I honestly wish i could take your advice.

I'd be willing to bet that you could find a decent Japanese textbook somewhere online (perhaps second-hand) for considerably less than $50.

I wish that were an option... The book would probably require a few hours a night, which would be impossible to provide during the school year, and after a school year, anything i learned previous of it and do not use would not be remembered.

The book wouldn't "require" any more time than you have and are willing to put into it. Just pull it out when you have time, read a bit, and put it away when you need to do something else.

It now is all comming together what your problem with my method is... You're not understanding what my method is... We're not on the same page... It seems that you guys think i'm trying to understand meaning from nothingness. I'm trying to learn how things are done, not neccesarily a point behind doing those things. Creepy enough, i like to analyze english as well. lol

The problem is that you're trying to reinvent the wheel, and doing so in the most difficult way possible. You're taking fundamental concepts of Japanese and making them infinitely more complicated than they need to be. It's unfortunate, because you seem intelligent enough to be a pretty good student of the language -- if only you were approaching it in a better way.

 

[Mike Cash]

I base it on the fact that I've never come across an error on a Japanese learning website.

That's a damned poor thing to base it on.

I guess you never saw the old "Japanese Is Possible" series on the thankfully-defunct Maktos site.

 

[kohlrak]

You repeatedly mention how limited your time is. Well, if that's the case, it's even more important for you to make the best use of that time by studying effectively, rather than just spinning your wheels with "research" that isn't going to get you even one step closer to understanding even the most fundamental points of the language.

Well, i can't study effectively when i have nothing to study.

I'd be willing to bet that you could find a decent Japanese textbook somewhere online (perhaps second-hand) for considerably less than $50.

I would require a method of payment. That would require my dad's credit card or such, and that would require his approval... He does not approve of any purchases online at all... he's paranoid.

The book wouldn't "require" any more time than you have and are willing to put into it. Just pull it out when you have time, read a bit, and put it away when you need to do something else.

If i stuff enough in my head, i can and study what i stuffed in my head without lugging a book around with me duringschool and stuff. I have enough to carry as it is, plus i run the risk of something happening to it. THen i'd be out of a book for however long it takes to replace it, when i can simply cram stuff into my head now, then worry about it comming to me naturally.

The problem is that you're trying to reinvent the wheel, and doing so in the most difficult way possible. You're taking fundamental concepts of Japanese and making them infinitely more complicated than they need to be.

Not quite. ANd i don't mind extra complications actually, though i don't see where it's extra complication. I love to think. I also make habit of converting 8 bit binary numbers in my head when i'm really really bored.

It's unfortunate, because you seem intelligent enough to be a pretty good student of the language -- if only you were approaching it in a better way.

I take that as a compliment, but i simply have an unusual method of taking each task at hand. I learned klingon this way (shame how many people take me unseriously for it) and only a few weeks after learning the grammar rules it actually poped. All i need is my dictionary for the vocabulary and i can convey any message and i can easily understand any message in klingon. The only reson vocabulary is a problem, is that i don't have enough people to talk to in klingon to use the vocabulary with. Now, i'm aware that Japanese will take slightly longer as it has a few more rules. But, unlike klingon, i will have lots of people to use the vocabulary with, so when it does click, i become better and better much faster than i did with klingon. I thank you as well though, not very often that i am complimented.

 

[Mike Cash]

If you were given more questions than answers and staying up so late your eyes are poppin' out, you'd be a little cranky too.

From Tuesday through Thursday, I spent 65 straight hours at work, during which time I not only performed my job duties, I also suffered through a bout of either influenza or food poisoning, with accompanying fever, vomiting, and explosive diarrhea (which circumstances required me to clench and retain for four hours). During those 65 hours, I was never once in a horizontal position. Following that, I had about 6 hours to be at home before going to work again. I spent those 6 hours sleeplessly making countless miserable dashes between my futon and toilet and then went and performed my job duties again. Friday night I got to lie down for the first time in four days.

Did you see me being cranky?

 

[kohlrak]

nope, and if you can handle that, then it's something to honor.

 

[KrazyKat]

Of course, it's irregular.
Irregular, perhaps? ある seems to be irregular too. And whatever あります's infinitive form is likely to be as well.

I don't think you know what regular means. I suggest looking it up.